The Lords North and 17th-century North settlers in Ireland, Massachusetts and Connecticut, part 2

Started by Private User on Friday, September 16, 2011


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Private User
9/16/2011 at 7:25 AM

The alternative genealogy of Wilke is not quite so unsatisfactory. This has John born in Yorkshire around 1623 and dying at an undetermined date in Nottinghamshire where his father came from; while Roger is born in Westmeath, Ireland around 1650 and dies there around 1701. It is compatible with John settling in Ireland, and Westmeath is where the Norths did establish themselves. On the other hand, it presents no connection with the Lords North of Guilford, who are believed to be ancestors of the Irish family in some way -

That web page presents a genealogy of the Norths starting from John, with Roger having sons Joseph, Caleb, Elizabeth, Roger, Susanna and Mary, of whom Caleb and three others come up in the Wilke and Fleischer genealogies, and Caleb alone in the Plunkett genealogy. So the problem is not Roger, it is his ancestry.

The page
reproduces a magazine article which gives fuller information on the North settlement in Westmeath.

I am hoping that those who contributed parts of this story may be able to give some sources which would enable this mess to be sorted out, and since there is a “master profile” attached to John North the curator advise how to reorganise the records. I have derived my genealogy from the Bomford site above, down to my ancestor John Roger North (c.1787-1853).

The Lord North family seems to be as follows, based on Wikipedia (W), based on Burke’s Peerage (B), and The Life of the Right Hon. Francis North, Baron Guilford ... (N):

Edward, 1st Baron North (c. 1496-1564) (W,B,N) m. (1) Alice Squier/Squire (W,B); (2) Margaret Charlsey née Butler (?-1575) (W,B)
- 1a: by (1) Roger, 2nd Baron North (1530/1-1600) (W,B,N) m. Winifred Rich (B) /Dudley née Rich (N)
-- 2a: Sir John North (?-1597) (W,B,N) m. Dorothy Dale (W,B,N)
--- 3a: Dudley, 3rd Baron North (1581/2-1665/6/7/8) (W,B,N) m. Frances Brockett/Brocket (?-1677) (W,B,N)
---- 4a: Dudley, 4th Baron North (1602-1677) (W,B,N) m. Anne Montagu (?-1680/1) (W,B,N)
---- 4b: 2nd son/John North (W,N)
---- 4c: a daughter/Dorothy North (c. 1605-1698) (W,B,N) m. (1) Richard Lennard, 13th Baron Dacre (1596-1630) (B,N); (2) Challoner Chute (B)
---- 4d: a daughter (N)
--- 3b: Roger North, sea traveller (c. 1582-c. 1652) (W,N)
-- 2b: Sir Henry North (B)
- 1b: by (1) Sir Thomas North, translator (1535-1604) (W,B,N)
- 1c: by (1) Christiana/Christian North (?-1563/4) (W,B), m. William Somerset, 3rd Earl of Worcester (c. 1527-1588/9) (W,B)
- 1d: by (1) Mary North, m. Henry/Unknown Scrope, 9th Baron Scrope of Bolton (W,B)

None of these Norths is mentioned in any of the three sources as having any Irish or American connection.

9/20/2011 at 7:09 AM

Private User
Hi Lori any information would be appreciated.

9/20/2011 at 7:11 AM
9/20/2011 at 7:37 AM

John let us keep the discussions in one place I have copied this to the other discussion.

Hope it is ok with you.

9/20/2011 at 9:04 AM

I defer to your information on and familiarity with the Norths; any work I did on those profiles must have been a result of their appearing as merge issues. If there is a specific action I can take to undo anything, let me know, otherwise I will leave the Norths in your far more capable hands.

3/27/2012 at 5:47 AM

I havejust come back from visiting Kirtling the ancestral home of the Norths.

I too have been trying to get to the bottom of the Norths. I have been able to prove that the Westmeath John North some say born around 1628 is not the son of Dudley North the 3rd baron nor is he the ancestor of the US Norths

In the dictionary of National biography vols. Dudley does have a "sone John he is said to have married a Sara and two other unknown wives."

I have found all three marriages. The last is to Mary Bright of Tolmarsh on 3 May 1662. It states the John is a widower aged 50 from Kirtling.

This makes his birth at 1612.

This makes perfect sense as Johannes North marries Jemina Sarah Drurye 30th July 1634. Sarah Drurye was the widow of Charles Drury and was born Sarah Seckford.

Johns second wife is Lady Anne Bosville the widow of Leonard Bosville. They are married 18th April 1646 at St Bartholemew the Less

Thus this John North neither goes to Ireland or America but stays in England.

However there is a link with the North family and the Irish Settlements. Following the 13 years of war from 1641 to 1654 the irish soldiers and irish nobility were shipped off to spain. Other widows orphans and "non usefull" trades people were rounded up and shipped to Barbadoes or the Ameriacn plantations. From the records wer have:

"In January 1654 the governors of Carlow, Kilkenny, Clonmel, Wexford, Ross, and Waterford, had orders to arrest and deliver to Captain Thomas Morgan, Dudley North and John Johnson, English merchants, all wanderers, men and women, and such other Irish within their precincts...... to be transported to the West Indies."

So Dudley could have been their or a relative acting on his behalf.

The land and property was then divided up for the English. But although there was meant to be a fair distribution. The poor English infantrymen were systematically diddled out of their lands by the Officers. They were shown scraps of unworkable land and told that was their share. This meant that quite sizeable amounts of land went to the senior officers.

Westmeath was one such county that was given to the English. John North the English settler in Westmeath was thus likely to be an Officer. Younger sons of the Nobility often went into the army.

It seem worthwhile then relooking at the Kirtling Norths. In particular the familial names. "Roger" and "John" for example are family names in the Kirtling North dynasty.

Edward North was the First Baron (1496-1564) he was the only son of Roger North a merchant and Christian, daughter of Richard Warcup of Yorkshire. Edward survived through the turmoils of Henry VIII through to Elizabeth I. He gained lands after the disolution of the Monasteries. and set up Kirtling Hall as his base.

Edward had three children John b abt 1560, Henry and Mary.

John North married Dorothy dale and had five children Dudley (1581), Roger (1585) John (abt 1587) Mary (1590) and Gilbert (1596)

John predeceased his father Edward. Henry was given lands in Mildenhall and the title passed on to Dudley the 19 year old Grandson in 1600. Dudley marries Francess Brocket and has a son John in 1612 ( the erroneous John that some researchers claim ancestry)

What is a possibility is that the Westmeath John is Dudley's nephew and is the son of either Dudleys brother John or Gilbert. Quite a lot is known about Rogers adventure and he did not have a son John.

Dudley's brother was Sir John North and he lived in London and kept the 3rd baron Dudley up to date on goings on in London.

Did Sir John have a son John who then as a young man fought in the Irish wars and was given lands by his Uncle Dudley? An intrigueing thought. Is it a coincidence that the neighboring lands to Newcastle are called Guilford? The barony of North passed to the Earl of Guildford in 1734.

If this idea should be in another discussion or thread perhaps someone could move it for me . I am a newby.

3/27/2012 at 8:21 AM

My North ancestry is as follows:

A John North is the probable father of Roger. It is unlikely that Roger's father was Hannah Bird. So I can only safely start with Roger.

Roger North(1650 Westmeath) and Sarah
--Joseph North (1673 Westmeath) and Mary Emor
----Emor North (1708 Westmeath died 1761 London) and Ann Large
------Joseph North (1751 London) and Mary France
--------Joseph North (1777 London) and Susanna Turner
----------George North (1813 London) and Mary Ann Marshall
------------George Thomas North (1837 London) and Matilda King
--------------Mary Ann Matilda North (1860 London) and George Blackwell

Their daughter Violet Blackwell born 1896 in Westminster London was my Grandmother.

Private User
3/28/2012 at 8:50 AM

This would make a great deal of sense, but I think you have skipped one generation. Edward, 1st Baron North, was the grandfather of John North who married Dorothy Dale: the generation in between was Roger, 2nd Baron North; so that Dudley who inherited the title from his grandfather was inheriting from Roger.

Are you sure that Dudley's brother John was Sir John, or could there be confusion with Dudley's father Sir John?

I think it is unlikely that the Dudley North who was to transport Irish people to the West Indies was the 3rd Baron: even in Cromwellian England, his title would have been used, to the best of my knowledge. It could have been his son Dudley, who succeeded him as the 4th Baron. However, according to Wikipedia, this Dudley was removed from Parliament in Pride's Purge, which removed the people least likely to support the trial of the King. His father the 3rd Baron was on the parliamentary side. I would guess the merchant was some other relative.

I hadn't noticed Guilford in Co. Westmeath. It makes it almost obvious that there was a connection with the Lords North.

3/29/2012 at 2:22 AM

The father of Dudley was Sir John North married to Dorothy Dale and his grandfather was Roger the second Baron. Dudley inherited the title from his grandfather in 1600 because his father had died before roger. he title went to the eldest son of Sir John. What is confusing is that Dudley had a younger brother John who was also knighted and became Sir John too.

It is my speculation that it is a nephew of Dudley, maybe the son of the second generation sir John who is the John who goes to Ireland.

3/29/2012 at 4:20 AM

The Dudley North merchant could well be the 4th Baron, but in 1654 he would not yet be Baron. not until 1667.

Dudley was a name specifically linked to the Kirtling Norths. Sir Roger the 2nd baron was married in 1555 to Winifred, daughter of Lord Chancellor Rich, but was the widow of Sir Henry Dudley, son of John, Earl of Warwick, the Protector Northumberland. Thus connected Roger became a close personal friend of Lord Robert Dudley, the Earl of Leicester, a favourite of Queen Elizabeth I

There would be no reason for another North family to use Dudley as a Christian name. The Norths were well travelled and although the ancestral home was Kirtling, most lived in London and were merchant adventurers trading in London when not having positions at court.

Dudley's brother Sir John North was a Gentleman Usher in the Royal Houshold, I believe but cannot prove his other brother Gilbert was also a Merchant.

To make all the genealogies fit, we need a John North to be given lands in Ireland in Westmeath around 1654, probably having served as an Officer under Cromwell and to be living there in 1660. This John begets Roger, who begets Caleb who emigrates to the Usa.

Then we need another John to arrive in the USA much earlier and marry a Hannah Bird.

Neither of these "Johns" are the John North son of Dudley. We know that he stays in England.

I suspect that "US John" is the son of Dudley's brother John, and "Irish John" is the son of his brother Gilbert. The reason for this thinking is the dates for the two brothers. Gilbert was born in 1596 and more likely to have a son born abt 1628. John is born earlier in 1587 and could have a son around 1610 who is then old enough to emigrate to the USA in the 1630's.

Caleb North thus would have family connections already in the US.

But I have yet to find the baptismal evidence to support this.

However the circumstantial evidence, the traditional thinking and the familial name of Roger is in my view quite compelling.

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