Suffix for 1820 Settlers

Started by June Barnes on Sunday, January 15, 2012

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1/15/2012 at 12:07 PM

I used SV/Prog as a billingual indication of stamvader regardless of country of origin.
Is there any rationale to make a difference between different countries of origin?
Stamvader I have used up to now as the oldest male who came to South Africa. Eg Wietse Botes came to South Africa with all his children already born in Europe. He is according to SAG the progenitor.

1/16/2012 at 3:53 AM

June, I was so hoping you want to pick up a fight, because things became a bit dull, with lots of blood remaining in the cool rooms just waiting to be infused to some unlucky losers because there are no winners!
I probably did not appreciate the under currents but just want to make some comments.
Putting stamvaders in different categories is not a one dimensional exercise and it is normally the differences in the dimension that is causing the difference in opinions.
To be specific, one division could be pre 1795 and post 1795.
Another division could be the one (which I thought was being created the last couple of days), dividing the stamvaders in countries of origin. That implicitly means that since 1820 Settlers are Brits and the French Huegenots are French, that you will have at least 3 subdivisions for France and Britian being for Britian the pre 1820 Settlers, the 1820 Settlers and the post 1820 settlers and for France the pre Huegenots, the Huegenots and the post Huegenots. And by the way, one Frenchman and one Brit coming to RSA today and marrying one of my grandchildren and have offspring, means that these guys become stamvaders of my great grandchildren. I would prefer to still call them SV/Prog or even another suffix extension if we prefer to be multilingual!
Now the two above divisions could be mapped in the same dimension or they could be crosscutting?/dwarsnydend which means 2 dimensions.
The practical implication of the above is:
Divisions in the same dimension:
If I require to know what my ancester's origin is pre 1795, then Stamvaders/Stamouers will have to be subdivided in countries of origin and Huegenots also one of the sub subdivisions under France.
Divisions dwarssnydend
Stamvaders/Stamouers can remain as is but a profile will have to be placed under Stamvaders/Stamouers as well as under Nordic if pre 1795.
If the ancestor is post 1795 I can not even comprehend, how it will look like.

To conclude : Since these divisions could get very complicated, I would continue with the divisions we have set up recently and regard Stamvaders/Stamouers as the cross cutting division which means practically that we just have countries of origin regardless of date. If someone has a requirement to have a profile under Stamvaders/Stamouers he/she can add it there as well. Projects like 1820 Settlers, French Huegenots, Missionaries in Southern Africa, Dorslandtrekkers, Botesfamilies trekking through Kakamas and settling in Namibia, Famous Springboks only liked by Western Province Supporters are all similar to stamvaders/Stamouers in the sense that they are all groupings dwarssnydend over the existing database

or said differently
Thomas Samuel Hood is a Brit arriving ca 1820 - This is the formal database
Thomas Samuel Hood is also an 1820 Settler so I add him to that project as well.
Thomas Samuel Hood is a South African missionary so I add him to that project as well
Thomas Samuel Hood is part of the Uniondale heritage so I add him to Uniondale Heritage as well

1/16/2012 at 3:57 AM

And suddenly I only see deleted posts!! What happened? You must be both alive because you still delete - or are you allowed on Geni up there!!??

1/16/2012 at 7:55 AM

Sorry Daan - the posts were just getting a little off topic and perhaps unnecessary! going down a path I didn't really want to explore again. I think what we have works well - all SV/Progs go into the South African Progenitor project. Then if they fee right in the South African SV/PROG project then they should go there too - but I still think that needs a clearer definition. The other projects look at the history of particular nationalities - I am preparing a spreadsheet to see what that turns up - I think it will be very interesting.

I think we can just agree to call all those who were the start of a line of progeny in SA a SV/PROG and not try and change it in any way. I was just wondering whether Stamouer in SA generally means the pre 1795 settlers.

No worries! All is right with the world!

1/16/2012 at 11:47 PM

LOl June, I told you you needed to catch Daan quickly and tell him we were worried this might take us into repeat of the past. (We're the PTSD sufferers from that, Daan) so we deleted. But he's faster than we are.

Private User
1/17/2012 at 6:41 AM

O my jitte. ek het alles gemis!! I also feel SV/Prog are the 1st person in that line no matter when they arrived.
To be quite hounest there are so many SV/PROG projects at teh moment I don't even know which one to use anymore.
Please do e a pleasure and make something in the header saying something like - Dit is die een/This is the one.
Love you guys.

1/18/2012 at 12:04 AM

Juds, THIS IS THE ONE: http://www.geni.com/projects/South-African-Progenitors that every progenitor you find in the SA tree should be added to.

Private User
1/19/2012 at 1:16 AM

Thanks Sharon. I have found a Doubell with a wonderful Estate while searching through my piles of research on Wednesday.
I will e-mail you as soon as I have the time.

1/19/2012 at 2:58 AM

Looking forward to it :-) What does it mean to have a wonderful estate?

1/19/2012 at 10:16 AM

If a man father's only daughters is he still considered to be a SV/Progenitor - his name has not been continued. Also if a man's progeny has no children - is he still SV/PROG even though there is no line of descent?

1/19/2012 at 11:29 AM

Any SV/Prog is only consummated by the first ofspring. If any of the ofspring still has living offspring he is an "active" SV/Prog. If all offspring is dead he can not be "active" anymore but surely could be "historic" or is it "Jurassic" meaning that he was the SV/Prog of the nomore ƺ˚ƪƕ's.

Another definition of a SV/Prog X could be that there is today somebody living that has a small percentage X blood in his/her veins. That means : regardless of what my familyname now is, one of my stamvaders was X. Therefor I believe a SV/Prog who only fathered daughters is still a SV/Prog

1/19/2012 at 1:10 PM

Yup, I agree with Daan - if there are descendants alive today who carry his or her DNA, the originators in SA ate progenitors,

1/19/2012 at 1:12 PM

umm, sorry - ARE progenitors - Medea is another Oedipal story entirely :-)

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