François du Plessis, III Lord of Richelieu, Neuville, Beçay, Vervolière & le Petit - Francois' lineage

Начала Alma Lubbe Суббота, 5 Мая 2012

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5/5/2012 в 5:33 до полудня

Kindly varify the source for claiming that his mother was Guyonne de Laval. Other sources has it as Francoise de Charge.

5/5/2012 в 11:34 до полудня

Thank-you for posing this question Alma. I too would like the source and dates for this individual, beginning with a birth date.

Perhaps the curator should question the source and reliability of the lineage for Jean Prieur du Plessis. Some professional assistance regarding a corrected and referenced family registry for this family will be greatly appreciated.

19/5/2012 в 10:55 до полудня

Sorry, I've only just seen this Discussion now. Thankyou for posting it as a Discussion, because then it becomes part of the research record of the profile, and we don't find ourselves re-inventing the wheel. To get people's attention, though - we'll need to call the other managers here too.

This profile has no curator, but as he's my 11th grandfather I'm happy to MP it and become that person. The person who added him - Mavis Swart - hasn't been on Geni for years, so we can't get her sources out of her.

Maybe we can start with your sources, Alma Lubbe. Can you put them here?

Alexander Armenis, the question about Jean Prieur is also being asked by Private User on our Geni SA Facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/groups/243811932355680/

Maybe we can get a work-group together to help research it?

19/5/2012 в 11:17 до полудня

Okay, I've put a request on FB page too.

19/5/2012 в 11:42 до полудня

This answer to a question by Private User on rootsweb, appears to be the starting point: http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/FRA-POITOU-CHARENTES/...

Hello Hendrik,

I was very interested to see your message. Here is what I have Œdiscovered¹
about my branch of the du Plessis family ­ I cannot guarantee that it is all
accurate. If your information is correct, then your Jean du Plessis (born
1510) fits neatly between my François du Plessis (born 1480) and Jean du
Plessis (born 1548), allowing about 30 or so years for each generation.

ŠŠŠŠŠŠ

François du Plessis, Lord of Richelieu, Neuville, Beçay, Vervolière and le
Petit-Puy, (my great-(x11)-grandfather), was born in 1480, the son of
François du Plessis and Renee Eveillechien. François married four times:
(1) Guionne de Laval,
(2) Anne le Roy,
(3) Marguerite Boilesue,
(4) Françoise de Charge),
and one of his grandsons by Anne le Roy was Cardinal Richelieu.

François du Plessis first married Guionne (Guillone) de Laval, born about
1480, daughter of Mathieu Lord of Montmorency constable of France, and his
wife Emme heiress of Laval. It was through this marriage that he acquired
some of his lands. Mathieu of Montmorency had fought at the battle of
Bouvines.

François¹ second marriage was on 31 March 1506, when he married Anne le Roy,
daughter of the vice-admiral of France, Dame du Chillou and Mondon in the
estates of Jaulnay and Marigny, and descended from the royal families of
France.
François and Anne had six boys and two girls, including:
*Louis (the oldest, born 1520, he inherited the lordships of Beçay, la
Vervolière, Chillou and Richelieu and became the King's 'cup-bearer', m. [16
January 1542] Françoise de Rochechouart* b. 1535)
*François (Seigneur of Richelieu, known as 'Pilon', born 1548 at
Richelieu, died 1590 at Gonesse, m. [1580] Suzanne de la Porte de Vezins,
born 1560 at Bas-Poitou, daughter of François de la Porte and Claude
Bochard). They had five children, including Armand Jean who became Cardinal
Richelieu.
*Antoine (known as the monk, he became a captain under the King)
*Jacques (aumonier (chaplain) to King Henry II)
*Louise

In 1530 François du Plessis (b. 1480) may have married a third time:
Marguerite Boilesue (born 1509).

On 22 March 1540 François du Plessis (b. 1480) married again: Françoise de
Charge (born 1505/1520).
François and Françoise had a son:
Jean du Plessis (born 1548, m. Judith Anne du Plessis du Mornay)

ŠŠŠŠŠŠ

Jean du Plessis, my great-(x10)-grandfather, was born in 1548, the son of
François du Plessis and Françoise de Charge . In about 1575 Jean married
Judith Anne du Plessis du Mornay, who was born in 1555 at Buhv, Vetin,
daughter of Seigneur de Lienart du Mornay of Poitiers.

Jean and Judith had a son:
Charles du Plessis (born 1600)

Jean du Plessis died aged 92 in 1640

ŠŠŠŠŠŠ

Charles du Plessis, my great-(x9)-grandfather, was born in 1600, the son of
Jean du Plessis and Judith Anne du Plessis du Mornay. In 1630 Charles
married (wife¹s name unknown, perhaps Prieur); she was born in 1616 in the
Poitou region of France.

Charles and his wife had a son:
Jean Prieur du Plessis (born 1638 at Poitiers, m. Madeleine Menanteau)

Charles du Plessis died aged 40 in 1640.

ŠŠŠŠŠŠ

Jean Prieur du Plessis, my great-(x8)-grandfather, was born in 1638 at
Poitiers, Poitou, the son of Charles du Plessis. Jean was confirmed at the
age of 49, on 20 September 1687 at Amsterdam-Waalse, Netherlands, before
embarking on the voyage to South Africa. Jean was a chirurgyn (surgeon
doctor); he arrived at the Cape in 1688 on the ship Oosterland with his
pregnant wife Madeleine Marie Menanteau, who was born in 1642 (or 1655) at
Poitiers, Poitou

Jean and Madeleine had three children:
1. Charles (Carel) Prieur du Plessis (born 18 April 1688 on board the ship
Oosterland, baptised 29 April 1688 on board the ship Oosterland, m. Cecilia
van Marseveen)
2. Jean Louis (b. 13 February 1691, bap. 25 February 1691 at Stellenbosch,
d. 14 March 1768 at Tulbagh, Waveren, m. [5 May 1714] Madeleine Rousseau
(Magdalena Rossouw), b. 26 February 1691, d. 2 October 1780 at Waveren, d.o.
Pierre Rousseau and Anne Retief, ch: Charl (bap. 22 Dec 1722 Drakenstein, d.
31 July 1797, m. (1) [19 December 1741] Maria van Ellewee
3. Judith (b. 1693/4 in Ireland, m. (1) [29 March 1711 at Stellenbosch] Ary
van Eeden, bap. 16 April 1690, s.o. Jan Janse van Eeden and Maria Russaar;
m. (2) [14 January 1714 at Stellenbosch] Jan Oberholster from Oberholz,
Wald, Zurich, d. 1723; m. (3) [2 January 1724 at Cape Town] Claas Dompselaar
(van Donselaar) from Wageningen in Gelderland, Netherlands)

Madeleine Marie Menanteau died in 1693 at Amsterdam.

Jean returned to Europe in 1693 on the ship Sirjansland, and returned to the
Cape with his second wife Marie Buisset, born in Sedan about 1676, whom he
had married in Amsterdam on 29 August 1700.

Jean and Marie had three children:
1. Maria (born 1702, m (1) [7 November 1718 at Stellenbosch] Johannes van
Ellewee from Amsterdam, ch: Maria; m. (2) [31 August 1749 at Stellenbosch]
Johan George Zorn from Pfieffe in Hesse-Nassau
2. Anna (born 1704, m. (1) 16 August 1733 at Stellenbosch] Johann Friedrich
Biermann from Hamburg, born 1695, s.o. Jacob Friedrich Biermann and
Elisabeth Oudenaarts; m. (2) [17 September 1747 at Cape Town] Johan Martin
Vogel from Scwabelwald, Bayreuth
3. Pieter (bap. July 1708, m. (1) [21 October 1731 at Cape Town] Geertruy
Janse van Deventer, bap. 3 January 1717, d.o. Gerrit Janse van Deventer and
Ariaantje Jacobs; m. (2) [17 April 1745 at Paarl] Francina Maré, Bap. 27
November 1718, d.o. Ignace Maré and Susanna van Vuuren

Jean Prieur du Plessis died on 7 December 1708 at Stellenbosch.

19/5/2012 в 1:56 после полудня

Hmm, it actually seems that the query I put on the profile before I was a Curator about there being a gratuitous generation added, had either never been fixed; or was only partially fixed.

So Alma, you were right to point it out - but it was just that he'd accidentally become his own son too. I've straightened it out and will spend some time filling out details that might be a bit skimpy.

Alexander, please fill us in on how this implicates your Jean Prieur problem.

19/5/2012 в 2:36 после полудня

The wedding date for Francois II and Guyonne de Laval is 25/01/1489 (H. dup).

From 1519 onwards, he and his father Francois I, sold many of their properties to Mathurin Bouchart, Squire Lord of Neon. Francois II was still very young, and after his father died he married Francoise de Charge, daughter of Joachim de Charge, Chevalier, Lord of Buxueil near de la Haye.

The marriage contract was signed on 22 Mar 1541, with the permission of Lady Francois de Loubbes-de Charge the second wife of her father, who must have been deceased then.

If the above is correct and Francois II du Plessis was very young in 1519, which would make better sense considering he fathered Jean du Plessis (*1548), where do the other earlier wives fit in? Could there have been another Francois du Plessis, ancestor of Cardinal Richelieu, that married Anne le Roy and perhaps Guyonne de Laval.

Something tells me we are dealing with more than one Francois du Plessis here.

Hendrik's Du Plessis lineages duplicated Francoise de Charge, she was placed in two completely different lines. The one makes more sense chronologically and it is unfortunately not the line we all have here with Cardinal Richelieu, it a senior branch that was less prominent.

Dr. Coetzee states that Francois II du Plessis was born in 1511, fitting well with the 'very young in 1519' story.

If I may hazard a guess based on Hendrik's tree, there were two men named Francois II du Plessis.

1. Francois II du Plessis (*1511) the son of Francois I du Plessis and Madeleine de Champropin.

2. Francois II du Plessis (*1470/80) the son of Francois I du Plessis and Renée Eveillechien

Need help, thank-you!

19/5/2012 в 3:16 после полудня

Sorry - correcting typos:

Alexander, thanks for answering - from which source is this quote?
"From 1519 onwards, he and his father Francois I, sold many of their properties to Mathurin Bouchart, Squire Lord of Neon. Francois II was still very young, and after his father died he married Francoise de Charge, daughter of Joachim de Charge, Chevalier, Lord of Buxueil near de la Haye.
The marriage contract was signed on 22 Mar 1541, with the permission of Lady Francois de Loubbes-de Charge the second wife of her father, who must have been deceased then."

Your points make sense - but leave us a bit stuck for where to pull the other Francois from. So before we try to find him (and I think, you're right - we must at least eliminate him as a possibility / at best find this other Francois),
can we make sure the scenario as it stands is definitely impossible?

So, One response to the above quote is that if he and his father were selling many of "their" properties in 1519, he must have been old enough to be seen as an equal partner with his father in the ownership sale of land decisions. That can't be that young.
Is it possible that the point about 'very young' that is being made is relative to an event such as the death of his previous wife - and it means 'very young for a widower to remain unmarried'?

19/5/2012 в 3:25 после полудня

Sorry for bailing just when it is getting so interesting, but I will have to come back to see your answer tomorrow, as it's past midnight here in SA.

Who is Madeleine de Champropin, and is she on Geni?

Private User
19/5/2012 в 3:38 после полудня

Alexander, you are completely correct, there WAS another Francois du Plessis...I have posted up his ancestry before, but will repeat it here...The du Plessis ancestry up to Guillaume III du Plessis spouse Charlotte de la Celle, is correct, but the Francois du Plessis who married Francoise de Charge is descended from Guillaume & Charlotte's elder son, Pierre, & not Sauvage (the younger son) as so many of the South African sites indicate...the one leading to the family of Cardinal Richelieu...Pierre married Radegonde Vigier , & they had a son, Jean who married Catherine Fretard....Their son Mande, married Marie de la Tousche..They had a son, Sauvage, married to Francoise l'Eveque..Their son, Francois I du Plessis married Madeleine de Champropin,.. & their son was Francois II du Plessis (1510-1560), Ecuyer (Lord) Seigneur du Plessis, des Breux,La Carreliere., et Thou.and HE married Francoise de Charge, daughter of Joachim de Charge & Marguerite de Boisleve...this information can be found on a lot of reliable French sites, such as racineshistoires..I delved into this because having looked into it, nothing made sense dates wise, etc..Having discovered these facts, I now begin to doubt the ancestry of Jean Prieur too, & wonder if speculation (& hope) is playing a part, for as far as I know, there is no proof, & documentation leading him to the line I have just presented here, (Francois & Francoise) much as I would LIKE there to be!....This needs further ivestigation..

Private User
19/5/2012 в 3:46 после полудня

Sharon...Madeleine de Champropin was the daughter of Philippe de Champropin Seigneur d'Oncieres...his father was Hugues de Champropin c.1276....Have further information leading back from all these lines.....And yes, you Do eventually reach Charlemagne!........

Private User
19/5/2012 в 3:52 после полудня

There is a lot of information on Madeleine out there....If you type her name in any search engine.....

20/5/2012 в 5:08 до полудня

Thanks Danielle - I'm researching that right now. Madeleine is proving more difficult that I'd imagined to locate via google searches, or on Racineshistoires. :-( So any links you can post will be very helpful.

20/5/2012 в 5:08 до полудня

Connecting this Discussion back to this project: http://www.geni.com/projects/du-Plessis-family-of-South-Africa/10778

20/5/2012 в 7:12 до полудня

Yes Danielle thank-you for giving the line I was referring to. I reported your finding to Hendrik du Plessis and he has yet to comment.

Hendrik has nearly got the story right, the problem is when he links Francois II du Plessis [x Francoise de Charge] to the Cardinal Richelieu line, this is where things go amiss in a big way.

Hendrik's tree includes this sensible piece of info under Francois II du Plessis, who's mother was Renée Eveillechien. This evidently is a mistake as the below is referring to Francois II du Plessis the son of Madeleine de Champropin.

In the year 1545, Francois II and his brother Claude du Plessis divided the properties left to them by their father and mother, as well as the collateral inherited properties which they inherited through the death of Sir Jean de Champropin, Chevalier, Lord of Chambort and Chagry, their mothers brother, and from Marie du Plessis, their fathers sister, and others.

This needs to be confirmed and changed so that the South African lineage reflects that it most probably descends from a different line to Cardinal Richelieu.

Danielle your info above looks correct!

20/5/2012 в 7:40 до полудня

Guys, I need you to go onto the relevant profiles and paste these sources and snippets in the About Me sections of the profiles they apply to, so we can re-order the profiles correctly and with sources to defend the changes and prevent them being changed back, or getting lost.

At the moment, I'm having a nightmare of a time trying to follow the corrections back through both trees without being given specific profile addresses and specific sources to add when I get there.

If an unlinking has to happen (AND IT LOOKS AS THOUGH IT MAY WELL DO) I need your help making sure that afterwards both of the two lines are still going to be there and validly connected to in to the present (never mind to Charlemagne in the past - which looks like a given to me :-)

For this I need to have sources on every profile to validify it, in case it gets disconnected in the process.

The two of you appear to have a good overview of the way it should be in your heads; but remember I'm new to this big picture, and I'm coming to a whole series of profiles with none of this data on them.

PLEASE go ahead of me and put this useful stuff onto the About Me of the profiles - so when I get there, I can figure out what you've already worked out and why; and what you want me to do about it ito moving/deleting/merging the profiles that are connected incorrectly, or duplicated into the wrong place.

20/5/2012 в 7:41 до полудня

Even just a link to follow is a useful addition

20/5/2012 в 8:04 до полудня
20/5/2012 в 8:45 до полудня

Most of the dates below are suspect:

1.1.1.1.1. Guillaume III Du Plessis (*c.1332) (+aft. 20/04/1373) Chevalier, seigneur du Plessis et de la Vervolière, Valignière et de Carrelière x Charlotte de la Celle, daughter of Jean de la Celle [Chevalier, Seneschal (bailiff) of Carcassone]

1.1.1.1.1.1. Pierre III Du Plessis (*c.1360) (+1401) Seigneur du Plessis et seigneur des Breux et seigneur de La Carrelière et seigneur de Forges et seigneur de Thou. Inherited the Lordships of Breux, la Carreliere and Forges, the private castle and the outhouses of Thou in the Chancellary of Angle on 18/02/1388 x Ragonde Vigiere

1.1.1.1.1.1.1. Jean Du Plessis (*c.1401) (+c.1466) Écuyer, seigneur du Plessis et des Breux, capitaine des Pleces de Angle et du Blanc, escurie du Roy Charles VII x Catharine Fretarde

1.1.1.1.1.1.1.2. Mande Du Plessis (*c.1425) [Seigneur du Plessis et seigneur des Breux et seigneur de Roys et seigneur de La Carrelière et seigneur de Faye et seigneur de Thou] x Marie de la Toucshe d.o. Gui seigneur de Tousche

1.1.1.1.1.1.1.2.1. Sauvage Du Plessis (*c.1450) (+c.1502) [Seigneur du Plessis et seigneur des Breux et seigneur de Vaux et seigneur de Roys et seigneur de La Milaudière et seigneur de La Carrelière et seigneur de Thou x (31-01-1474) Françoise l’Evêque xx (15/12/1485) Jeanne de Rouyéres, daughter of Alain de Rouyéres [Seigneur de Brunhac]

1.1.1.1.1.1.1.2.1.1. Francois I du Plessis (*c.1480) (+shortly bef.1545) x Madeleine de Champropin

1.1.1.1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1. Francois II du Plessis (c.1510-1560), Ecuyer, Seigneur du Plessis, des Breux, La Carreliere., et Thou x Francoise de Charge, daughter of Joachim de Charge & Marguerite de Boisleve

1.1.1.1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1. Jean Du Plessis [7 years old in 1556] (*1548) x (c.1575) Judith Anne Du Plessis Du Mornay (*c.1555 Buhv, Vexin) daughter of Seigneur de Lienart du Mornay of Poitiers

1.1.1.1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1. Charl Du Plessis (*c.1590) (+c.1640) [Medical Surgeon in Poitiers] x Anne Pieur? (*c.1616 Poitiers, Poitou Province)

1.1.1.1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.1. Jean Prieur Du Plessis (*26/04/1638 St Liénart, Poitiers, Poitou Province) [Medical Surgeon in Poitiers] [Immigrated to South Africa]

Sources include a mash of the following:
Dr Coetzee 'Du Plessis' book.
Hendrik du Plessis's notes to me
And a number of references given in the above.

20/5/2012 в 12:43 после полудня

Thanks Alexander - you're a star!
I'm going to mash them into the wikipedia lineage at the webpage above. Please keep an eye on where I go astray :-)

Private User
20/5/2012 в 2:09 после полудня

Your research covers more detail than I posted up Alexander, so thanks very much for that..I would try to find some other sources for Jean du Plessis, than those mentioned though, as once incorrect information gets out there it is easily repeated...I would want to know where it came from, & can the records be found in France, or on French sites...I desparately want to find this link, but want to know it is correct!

Private User
20/5/2012 в 2:11 после полудня

I did send the information I discovered to Hendrik as well, but never heard anything more.

Private User
20/5/2012 в 2:14 после полудня

Sharon, I wasn't able to find much on Madeleine de Champropin either, but there is plenty on some of the other lines, which I think you're looking into!

Private User
20/5/2012 в 2:24 после полудня

Sharon I expect you have now seen the Etienne Joubert tree of this ancestry on Geni...that goes up to Francois I & Madeleine de Champropin...

21/5/2012 в 2:15 до полудня

Thanks for everyone's valuable contribution. It is really appreciated. The information is very important.

21/5/2012 в 2:22 до полудня

I've posted the details I'm using to fill out the 'Older brother's line on the project page. Please take a look. (I'd post here, but the wikitexting will just make it confusing because it won't show the indents.) http://www.geni.com/projects/du-Plessis-family-of-South-Africa/10778

21/5/2012 в 2:40 до полудня

Danielle, yes, I too can link myself to Charlemagne through my Du Plessis Lineage. A 38th descendant. However, this relies on the correctness of the information, which I am not too sure of at this stage.

21/5/2012 в 2:42 до полудня

I've just created a profile for the elusive Madeline :-) Madeleine

Alma, I think all the du PLessis lines will go back to Charlemagne (actually, most Western lines do) - as far as I can tell here, we're not creating any break that far back on the line.

21/5/2012 в 2:51 до полудня

I find this link to be very helpful
http://a.decarne.free.fr/gtoile/pag720.htm#1

This is my understanding of the lineage:
1. Guillaume du Plessis was born before 1201 in France. He died about 1249 in France. He was married to Christian daughter of Hugues de Stanford and possibly Marguerite Countess of Warwick daughter of Henry Earl of Warwick.
Armes : d'argent à trois chevrons de gueules.

Décès : après 1201
Titre : seigneur du Plessis
Titre : seigneur de la Vervolière
Children:
M i Pierre du Plessis was born before 1249.

M ii Jean du Plessis was born before 1249. Count of Warwick He married Margerie J
2. ¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬Pierre du Plessis was born before 1249.
Décès : après 1201
Titre : seigneur du Plessis
Titre : seigneur de la Vervolière
Children:
M i Guillaume du Plessis was born before 1272. He died after 1308.

3. ¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬Guillaume du Plessis was born before 1272 in France. He died after 1308. Children:
Titre : seigneur du Plessis
Titre : seigneur des Breux
Titre : seigneur de la Vervolière
M i Pierre du Plessis.

M ii Jean du Plessis ..
4. ¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬Pierre du Plesssis:
Naissance : vers 1270
Titre : seigneur du Plessis
Titre : seigneur des Breux
Titre : seigneur de la Vervolière
Titre : écuyer (Ridder)
Cité en 1249.
M i Guillaume du Plessis.

M ii Pierre du Plessis Chevalier .
M iii Eustache du Plessis × Torsac (de) N.
M iv Alips du Plessis × 1328 La Châtre (de) Philippe.
5. ¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬Guillaume du Plessis
http://a.decarne.free.fr/gtoile/pag720.htm#1

He married Charlotte de La Celle about 1385 in France.
Titre : seigneur du Plessis
Titre : seigneur des Breux
Titre : seigneur de la Vervolière
Titre : chevalier
They had the following children:
M i Pierre du Plessis was born before 1373
¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬ Pierre III Du Plessis (*c.1360) (+1401) Seigneur du Plessis et seigneur des Breux et seigneur de La Carrelière et seigneur de Forges et seigneur de Thou. Inherited the Lordships of Breux, la Carreliere and Forges, the private castle and the outhouses of Thou in the Chancellary of Angle on 18/02/1388 x Ragonde Vigiere

M ii Sauvage du Plessis was born in 1388.

M iii Jean du Plessis was born about 1390. He died .

F iv Jeanne du Plessis was born about 1393 in France. She died .
F v Catharine du Plessis was born about 1395 in France. She died .

¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬Guillaume III Du Plessis (*c.1332) (+aft. 20/04/1373) Chevalier, seigneur du Plessis et de la Vervolière, Valignière et de Carrelière x Charlotte de la Celle, daughter of Jean de la Celle [Chevalier, Seneschal (bailiff) of Carcassone]
6. Sauvage du Plessis ] was born in 1388 in France. He married D'ysabeau Le Groin about 1415 in France.
Naissance : vers 1360
Décès : après 15 novembre 1409
Titre : seigneur de la Vervolière

He married D'ysabeau (Isabeau) Le Groin about 1415 in France.
Naissance : vers 1370
Décès : 1401
Titre : dame de Belarbre, d'une noble famille du Berry

They had the following children:
M i Sauvage du Plessis was born about 1416 in France. .
M ii Geofroy du Plessis was born in 1422. × Clérembault (de) Perrine.

F iii Jeanne du Plessis was born about 1425 in France. × 1414 Dreux (de) Jean
7. Geofroi/Geofroy du Plessis
http://a.decarne.free.fr/gtoile/pag434.htm#3
born in 1422 in France.
Décès : 1469
Titre : seigneur de la Vervolière
Titre : seigneur du Petit-Puy

He married De Perrine Clerembaut about 1450 in France.
DEUR DE PERRINE CLEREMBAUT verwant aan CHARLEMANGE!!!!
Naissance : vers 1415
Titre : dame de Richelieu
They had the following children:
M i Francois du Plessis was born about 1451. He died .

M ii Pierre du Plessis was born about 1453 in France. He died .
F iii Antoinette du Plessis was born about 1453 in France. She died .
F iv Jaquette du Plessis was born about 1454 in France. She died .
F v Ysabeau du Plessis was born about 1456 in France. She died .


8. ¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬Francois du Plessis was born about 1451.
Steward of Mary of Anjou (Queen)and Duke of Guyenne.
– Hier is die laaste voorvader wat ons met Richelieu deel.

He married Renee Eveillechien about 1422.
They had the following children:
M i Francois du Plessis was born about 1480 .

F ii Jeanne du Plessis was born about 1483.

écuyer tranchant (steward) de la Reine en 1456 et du Duc de Guyenne (Aquitaine) en 1469 i.e Charles de France (VII?),
|-----Eveillechien Jacques
Eveillechien Renée
|-----Sanglier Marie
Les 2 enfants du couple Plessis (du) – Eveillechien
Plessis (du) François
× 1489 Laval (de) Guionne
× 1506 Le Roy Anne - †après 1514
Plessis (du) PerretteNaissance : vers 1460

9. ¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬Francois du Plessis http://a.decarne.free.fr/gtoile/pag69.htm#18
Décès : après 1514
Titre : seigneur de Richelieu
Titre : seigneur de Neuville
Lord of Richelieu, Neuville, Beçay, Vervolière and le
Petit-Puy

François married four times:
(1) Guionne de Laval,
(2) Anne le Roy,
(3) Marguerite Boilesue,
(4) Françoise de Charge,
and one of his grandsons by Anne le Roy was Cardinal Richelieu.

François du Plessis first married Guionne (Guillone) de Laval, born about
1480, daughter of Mathieu Lord of Montmorency constable of France, and his
wife Emme heiress of Laval. It was through this marriage that he acquired
some of his lands. Mathieu of Montmorency had fought at the battle of
Bouvines.

François¹ second marriage was on 31 March 1506, when he married Anne le Roy, daughter of the vice-admiral of France, Dame du Chillou and Mondon in the estates of Jaulnay and Marigny, and descended from the royal families of France.
François and Anne had six boys and two girls, including:
*Louis (the oldest, born 1520, he inherited the lordships of Beçay, la
Vervolière, Chillou and Richelieu and became the King's 'cup-bearer', m. [16
January 1542] Françoise de Rochechouart* b. 1535)
*François (Seigneur of Richelieu, known as 'Pilon', born 1548 at
Richelieu, died 1590 at Gonesse, m. [1580] Suzanne de la Porte de Vezins, dame de la Reine Louise de Lorraine epouse Henry III en 1580 born 1560 at Bas-Poitou, daughter of François de la Porte and Claude Bochard). They had five children, including Armand Jean who became Cardinal
Richelieu.
*Antoine (known as the monk, he became a captain under the King)
*Jacques (aumonier (chaplain) to King Henry II)
*Louise

In 1530 François du Plessis (b. 1480) may have married a third time:
Marguerite Boilesue (born 1509).

On 22 March 1540 François du Plessis (b. 1480) married again: Françoise de
Charge (born 1505/1520).
François and Françoise had a son:
Jean du Plessis (born 1548, m. Judith Anne du Plessis du Mornay)

21/5/2012 в 7:11 до полудня

Okay, Alma Lubbe and Alexander Armenis:

I have finally finished the line that the wikipedia link: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haus_Le_Plessis-Richelieu designates as the line from the older brother Pierre III, Seigneur du Plessis son of Guillaume III (d 1773) & Charlotte de La Celle. (The younger brother's line, according to this, is the one that results in Cardinal Richelieu - i will do that next, & that is a separate issue to this)

At the 'end' point of the line from Pierre III (d1401 m Ragonde Vigier), where the Wikip link has a son of Francois II (m Francoise de Charge) http://www.geni.com/people/Fran%C3%A7ois-II-du-Plessis/600000001664... as Francis III (m Jeanne d'Aloigny) http://www.geni.com/people/Fran%C3%A7ois-III-du-Plessis/60000000166...; BOTH OF YOU ABOVE have an alternative / additional son: Jean du Plessis(born 1548, m. Judith Anne du Mornay) who leads to our ancestor Jean Prieur.

Now, as it is extremely unlikely that Francois II had only one child, Jean as another son, besides Francois III is not unreasonable. WE JUST NEED TO ESTABLISH WHAT PRIMARY SOURCES VERIFY HIS EXISTENCE.
(I'm busy trying to track the Judith du Mornay connection, altho Danielle has already had difficulty finding her)

If we all keep searching together, maybe we'll find something.

In the meantime, I'm going to start putting in the line of the younger brother of Pierre III, Sauvage (d 1409 m Isabeau Le Groing) - that the wikip link suggests is the one that links to Cardinal Richelieu
- so that we can start to decide between the two lines about the possibility of errors in our own line, due to a confusion between the two.

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