Bégon, comte de Paris, marquis de Septimanie - THE PROBLEM OF HIS 3 POSSIBLE WIVES:

Started by Sharon Doubell on Friday, June 29, 2012

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6/29/2012 at 1:57 AM

THE PROBLEM OF COUNT BEGUE & HIS 3 POSSIBLE WIVES looks like this:

Count Begue/Beggo/ Begon has 2 (or 3) equally likely wives according to original sources – but only one set of descendents (Luithard, Eberhard, Susanna):

Either his wife (and mother of these 3 kids) was Charlemagne’s daughter:

'''1) Alpaida (by Adaltrude)''' Sources below, or

'''2) Amaudra (by Himiltrude)''' - less convincingly sourced than the other two, at the moment -Reference to her mother on Die Genealogie der Franken und Frankreichs, noted by Wikipedia, says she later married a Count of Paris.

or she was Charlemagne’s granddaughter:

'''3) Alpais (through his son, Louis I)''' Sources Below

'''Sources:''' From Charles Cawley's Medieval Lands database

__________

'''BEGO''' ([755/60]-28 Oct 816).

m firstly ---. There is no proof of this possible first marriage of Bego. However, as noted below, if his wife Alpais was the daughter of Emperor Louis, there would have been a considerable age difference between her and Bego, which suggests the possibility of an earlier marriage.]

m [secondly] ([806]) ALPAIS, illegitimate daughter of [Emperor LOUIS I & his mistress ---] ([793/94]-23 Jul 852 or after, bur [Reims]).
Flodoard refers to "Ludowicus Alpheidi filie sue uxori Begonis comitis"[67]. The Annales Hildesheimenses name "filiam imperatoris…Elpheid" as the wife of "Bicgo de amici regis" when recording the death of her husband[68].
Settipani discusses the debate about the paternity of Alpais, preferring the theory that Emperor Charles I was her father[69]. If Emperor Louis was her father, it is unlikely that she was born before [793/94], given his known birth date in 778. It would therefore be chronologically tight for her to have had [three] children by her husband before his death in 816.

[Sharon’s Note: Not really – it makes her 23yrs old when he dies. Charlemagne’s wife Hildegard had had 9 children by the time she died at 23 or 24yrs]

However, no indication has been found in primary sources of the ages of these children when their father died. The question of her paternity is obviously not beyond doubt, but it is felt preferable to show her as the probable daughter of Emperor Louis in view of the clear statement in Flodoard. If Alpais was the daughter of Emperor Louis, it is likely that she was not her husband's only wife in view of his estimated birth date. After her husband died, she became abbess of Saint-Pierre-le-Bas at Reims in [817]. She was still there 29 May 852.

Bego & his [second] wife had three children:
i) LIUTHARD . Flodoard names "ipsius Alpheidis vel filiorum eius Letardi et Ebrardi" when recording their mother's donation to the church of Reims[70].
ii) EBERHARD . Flodoard names "ipsius Alpheidis vel filiorum eius Letardi et Ebrardi" when recording their mother's donation to the church of Reims[71].
iii) SUSANNA ([805/10]-). The primary source which establishes that Susanna was the daughter of Bego has not so far been identified. "Vulfardus" donated property to Saint-Benoît-sur-Loire for the souls of "genitoris mei Vulfardi et genetrice mea Susannane necnon et germanorum fratrum meorum Adelardo, Vulgrino, Ymo et sorore mee Hildeburga vel nepote meo Vulgrino" by charter dated 2 Nov 889[72]. m ([825/30]) VULFHARD, son of ---.

6/29/2012 at 1:58 AM

Jan 2011 STATUS OF DEBATE by Justin Swanström, Pam Wilson, Ben M. Angel, Sharon Doubell:

The 10th Century chronicler, Flodoard is a primary source, while both Cawley and Settipani are secondary sources - presenting conflicting conclusions. Settipani (arguing for Charlemagne's daughter), contradicts Flodoard (arguing for Louis' daughter), based on consideration of other primary sources (which we haven't found). Cawley appears to be most likely to dominate because, although Settipani's conclusions are possibly more accurate, Cawley is more available to Geni users on the net.

Sharon Doubell's STRATEGIC SOLUTION WAS TO INSERT BEGUE in ALL 3 POSITIONS, & TRY TO USE THE CURATOR NOTE TO AVOID MERGES BETWEEN THEM.

6/29/2012 at 1:58 AM

June 2012 STATUS OF DEBATE by Justin Swanström, Sharon Doubell; George J. Homs:

Over the past year, despite being locked, the profiles have been merged into each other - suggesting this was not a workable strategy. George J. Homs IS WORKING ON AN ALTERNATIVE STRATEGY:

6/29/2012 at 6:34 AM

The Henry Projects says:

Alpaïs, filia imperatoris, d. after 29 May 852, on a 23 September,
m. Bego, d. 816, count of Paris.
["Picco, primus de amicis regis, qui et filiam imperatoris [nomine Elpheid] duxit uxorem, defunctus est." Annales Laurissenses Minores, s.a. 816, MGH SS 1: 122; see also Werner (1967), 429-441; "... Quod monasterium Ludowicus imperator Alpheidi, filiae suae, uxori Begonis comitis, dono dedit, ..." Flodoard, iv, 46, MGH SS 13: 595] Although it is clear that the imperator who was the father of Alpaïs was either Charlemagne or Louis the Pious, there is no general agreement as to which man was her father. While the testimony of Flodoard would make Louis the father, Flodoard was writing a century later, and the chronology is a factor for making her a daughter of Charlemagne instead. [See the discussion by Settipani (1993), 200-3]

http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/louis000.htm

The reference is to Christian Settipani, La préhistoire des Capétiens.

6/30/2012 at 5:27 AM

Thanks, Justin I add that to the Charlemagne project

6/30/2012 at 5:30 AM

I mean addED! :-)

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