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Catharina Mare - Is this Ignace's sister or his daughter?

Started by Sharon Doubell on Monday, July 9, 2012

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7/9/2012 at 8:28 AM

There is debate amongst sources:

So perhaps
a) Ignace /Ignatius Maré, SV/PROG (1684) has an unknown first wife, by whom he has this Catharina Maré (1692) as his daughter, and he comes out to SA in 1700-5 after his first wife, if she exists, dies - together with his daughter, rather than
b) coming out to SA as a bachelor, with his much younger sister, Catharina Maré Catherina Mare i (1692) (daughter of Paul Mare and NN)?

Either way, they both marry siblings after they get to SA:
>In 1706 Ignace /Ignatius Maré, SV/PROG (1684) marries Susanna Janszoon van Vuren, b1 (1691)
>In 1713 Catharina Maré (1692)] marries Johannes Janse van Vuuren, b2 (1694 )

7/9/2012 at 8:31 AM

I think this Catherine being Ignace's daughter is the least likely scenario - given the tradition of family portraits then being over 3 generations, not 2 - otherwise why didn't Ignace have portraits of his other kids too? (Perhaps because they were born in SA, and the portraits were painted before he and his sister/daughter got here?)

Other secondary sources that agree with this are:
Pieter Coertzen, in 'Die Huguenote van SA'
Naam: Mare (Maree) Ignace?
Plek van Herkoms:Calabrie in Italie of Cambresis in Duitlsland
Datum van Aankoms: Ongeveer 1706

Naam: Mare, Catherine
Plek van Herkoms:Calabrie in Italie of Cambresis in Duitlsland
Datum van Aankoms: Ongeveer 1706, waarskynlik saam met haar broer.

and The Mare Geneology page - http://www.ajmare.com/pafg01.html

but they're short on reasons that I can find.

7/9/2012 at 8:36 AM

The rest of the About Me text seems to have accumulated from numbers of merges, and I can't figure out which sources should be cited for which info.

Possibly some of the other merged in managers can remember which bits were theirs and untangle the sources that go with each separate piece of info?

Some of this text does view her as the daughter, not the sister - but it isn't clear where the references begin and end.

Anyone want to have a go?

Oh PS - It's in Afrikaans.

7/9/2012 at 10:03 AM

Suggestion - transfer all the notes that are there into a word document and attach it to the profile. Remove what is there and start afresh from sources that you know? Write it in English and then get someone to translate into Afriks - there must be a volunteer amongst the managers - add a note to explain that this is what has been done with a link to the attached doc. It is the only way to do it clear headedly!!!

Can't volunteer!!! Too much else on - wedding LOOMS!

7/9/2012 at 1:41 PM

Ja, i tried that. It's not the Afrikaans that is the problem so much as the fact that the sources don't seem to be there, or are not matched up correctly. I'm hoping to get the other managers to weigh in and put their data back with the sources that match it.

You must do go and do the wedding, June, & the interview for your book. Geni will wait :-)

7/9/2012 at 2:25 PM

I still think that when you have such a hotchpotch of stuff in the About section that it is worth starting from scratch - the problem with people just adding copied and pasted stuff onto profiles is that we end up with all sorts of versions of the same information, and often unrelated!

7/9/2012 at 2:40 PM

Yes that's definitely happened here, so hopefully this will act as a call to the other managers to put their data back in from scratch.

7/15/2012 at 11:22 PM

I was leisurely watching the About me as one of the lower echelon managers, when I thankfully noticed some fairy already cleared up the childrens room - it pays you sometimes to photograph graves in the desert where the Geni waves can not reach you!

7/20/2012 at 9:20 AM

Ahh - desert photographers are worth their weight in gold!

7/21/2012 at 2:20 AM

As are people who pitch in and help on the About Me's. Thank you fairy :-)

8/26/2012 at 2:51 AM

Ignace WAS a widower when he married Susanna Jansz Van Vuuren - see his marriage entry attached to his and her profiles. A previous wife did exist, therefore. The marriage entry also makes it quite clear that he was from Calabria, which is a region in Italy

How do we know that these portraits ARE of Ignace and Catherine, anyway?

What are the sources for Paul Maree being his father?

8/27/2012 at 6:38 AM

Thanks for uploading that, Jansi Syfert. I see Private User had also been interested in the Source Data here.

Your point about Ignace as a widower may well make it most logical to list her as his daughter, if others are happy with this.

(Your source gives Calabria, FRANCE though?)

Also, as Private User hasn't come back with evidence for the other Catherina Mare, I'm happy to go forward with the other researchers: Alexander Armenis and June Barnes on this Discussion Catharina Maré and remove that profile.

Feedback from all interested?

8/27/2012 at 6:53 AM

Alistair Knox has also had an interest in these profiles.

PS (Although I didn't add the profiles, I did add the pics - they were from a trustworthy source about the Mare's on the net - but do you think I've been able to find them again??!!)

8/27/2012 at 7:18 AM

Please, any of you - send a management request if you want to be added as a manager to the profiles.

8/27/2012 at 7:39 AM

I am having to rely on those that have in-depth knowledge here - lazily leaving it to you!!

8/27/2012 at 8:22 AM

It is not my source, I don't know who uploaded that - there isn't a Calabria in France.

Yes, please remove the second Catharina!

8/27/2012 at 9:57 AM

I see where Calabria, France came from - it is on his profile which is locked

8/27/2012 at 10:06 AM

OK, let's wait a day or two until everyone above has had a chance to catch this discussion and so is 'watching' :-) and then I'll unlock the line for us to work it on it together.

8/27/2012 at 11:01 AM

I think Jansi have nade commendable research on this matter and I will abide by it.
When handling my 6th grandfather, just take care because he is very frail at this age!!

8/28/2012 at 2:41 AM

Frail as dust, I think :-)

8/28/2012 at 10:11 AM

Hi Everyone
Since they are also my family I am glad that everyone has taken an interest herein. I seem to remember that there was a debate about Mare/Marais which was settled(?) as two distinct lines. Please let me know if you have the time. I am sorry that my mind has slipped in this regard.

8/28/2012 at 3:18 PM

Sharon, my understanding is as follows:

I have Catherina Maré as the daughter of Ignace Maré and his first wife.

Catherina Maré married her stepmother's younger brother, Johannes van Vuuren (*1694). She married him approximately 7yrs after her father, Ignace Maré, married her stepmother, Susanna van Vuuren (*1691).

Therefore I would say that Ignace Maré was born c.1675 and arrived at the Cape in 1705. Catherine Maré, one of his two 'voorkinders' was born c.1695.

Hope this helps

8/28/2012 at 9:36 PM

I agree with Alexander, except that I think Ignace must have been born earlier than 1675. The trend was for young men to marry at c. 25 years old.

His year of birth would then be c. 1670 or earlier.

8/28/2012 at 10:50 PM

All looking good! Wanted a bit of Italian ancestry!
Seriously - good work everyone!

8/29/2012 at 1:44 AM

Wow - no answers for you June, sorry. But praise for everyone pulling together so well on this one.

A further question then: Does that mean this Mare line is not a French Huguenot one?
I'll go dig out my books and check, but I seem to recall there being no record of them arriving on any of the Huguenot boats.
Could they have been Huguenots who arrive in SA via Italy; or are they actually Italians?

(I agree, June - I have no Italian ancestry on my tree: this would be a welcome addition :-)

8/29/2012 at 2:40 AM

Interesting!!!
Juliet Marais Louw in The Huguenot Story lists Ignace Mare on page 51

So are you asking whether the Catharina Mare who married Johannes Janse van Vuuren, b2 was the daughter of Ignace (previously considered to be his sister) - which is how I have it in my records?

A question about the portraits - Ignace and Catharina do appear to be very similar in age going by these portraits - could it be that there was a sister and a daughter?????

Just to stir things up a little??

If you go to http://www.sag.org.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&am...

"Many French Huguenots escaped again to neighbouring countries such as Italy, Switzerland, Germany, Holland, Scandinavia and England".

and

(2) Bellon, Eugen. Zerstreut in alle Winde [Scattered to all the Winds], 1685-1720. Trans. by Erika Gautschi. (West Lafayette, Indiana: Belle Publications, 1983). This is an English translation of historical papers originally published by the German Huguenot Society. Describes the Dauphine French Huguenots’ migration into Italy, Switzerland, and Germany. 245 pages. Family History Library, microfiche, FHL INTL Fiche 6068505, Salt Lake City. from http://www.rtgenealogy.net/huguenots.htm

8/29/2012 at 2:48 AM

http://ancestry24.com/waldesians/ - interesting

The Waldesians of our Valleys

"The Waldesians who arrived at the Cape, from 1688 onwards on various Dutch East India ships, together with the French Huguenots, were settled on farm land at the ‘’Wagon makers Valley’’, outside of Wellington, and Stellenbosch. Jacque de Savoye, who had two daughters only, was the leader of this group, and often protested the governance of Adriaan Willem van der Stel. Amongst the Huguenots and Waldesians, was one Italian, namely Ignace Mare from Calabria, who was a widower, and settled in the Drakenstein area. He too had become a Protestant, and therefore also had to flee for his life. The surname is also spelt Maree to-day".

8/29/2012 at 2:50 AM

the Waldesian article was written by by Andre Martinaglia

8/29/2012 at 2:52 AM

The First Fifty Years Project have Catharinaa as daughter to a first wife

http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/g5/p5206.htm and http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/g8/p8567.htm

8/29/2012 at 2:56 AM

More from the FFYP -

[S325] Baptism Register, Palmkronieke I Baptisms, Lorna: 7.2.1706 trou "Ignatius Maree van Calabria wedr: met Susanna van Veuren van Cabo jongd:" Sy was d/v Gerrit Jansz van Vuuren en Susanna Jacobs. Ignatius het c1705 na die Kaap gekom met sy kinders Catharina en Ignatius uit sy vorige huwelik. 19.5.1707 vra Ignatius Marre van dondregt (sic) verlof om na Drakenstein te verhuis. Sy land van herkoms is nog omstrede. Langefontein, Kuilsrivier het aan hom behoort. Hy koop St Omar, Dal Josephat in 1724 van Armand Veron.

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