Wessel Michael Doubell - Is this the same guy?

Started by Sharon Doubell on Saturday, July 21, 2012

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7/21/2012 at 1:14 PM

This may be referring to this Wessel Michael?

From: "Ellen Stanton" <harprulz@bellsouth.net>
Subject: [ZA-EC] Index to Grahamstown Baptisms 1827-1930
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 22:18:13 -0500

INDEX TO GRAHAMSTOWN METHODIST BAPTISMS on www.familysearch.org

239; 1566; '''DOUBELL; Wessel Michael; 10/26/1918'''

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/south-africa-eastern-...

Private User
7/21/2012 at 2:28 PM

This is the gravestone for Wessel - http://www.eggsa.org/library/main.php?g2_itemId=775339&amp;g2_image... - 26 Oct. 1918 - 26 April 1952

His parents are named in that FamilySearch.org baptism as Wessel Michael Smuts Doubell and Georgina Frances (no maiden name given.)

The elder Wessel could very well be the son of Maria Dorothea Smuts.

The FamilySearch record also names another son of Wessel and Georgina, baptized on the same day, Alfred Erk Bissett Doubell.

Private User
7/21/2012 at 2:40 PM

Estate papers for Georgina Frances Doubell nee Bisset, wife of Wessel Michael Smuts Doubell:

DEPOT TAB
SOURCE MHG
TYPE LEER
SYSTEM 01
REFERENCE 4715/76
PART 1
DESCRIPTION DOUBELL, GEORGINA FRANCES. (BORN BISSET).
STARTING 19760000
ENDING 19760000
REMARKS PREDECEASED SPOUSE WESSEL MICHEL SMUTS DOUBELL.

Private User
7/21/2012 at 3:12 PM

The family tree below is from Mike Doubell, over e-mail, and matches the information above regarding the two Wessels and Georgina (though Mike gives her maiden name as Mannix, not Bisset/t).

Note also that the third generation Wessel, who died 1952, married a Sybil Isobel Graham; this matches up with the above gravestone of Wessel who died 26 April 1952 and is buried next to a Martin Graham.
http://www.eggsa.org/library/main.php?g2_itemId=775339&amp;g2_image...

===============

gg grandfather - Wessel Michael Smuts - steytlerville

grand father - also Wessel M S - settled in standerton. He married Georgina Mannix from Ficksburg/ Basutoland area probably late 1890 s

my father -also WMS - born standerton +-1916 died +-1952 married Sybil Isobel Graham 1945. She was born Cape town 1918 died 2003.

me also WMS - born 1946 still alive! Married Diane Edith Howes 1972.

7/22/2012 at 2:14 AM

Eish, I must be having a slow morning (too late last night :-) Sheldon.

I can see you've tied the Wessel Michael research together nicely above - but I also see I didn't look closer enough at this profile's data: THIS profile can't be him because THIS profile's mother - Maria Dorothea Doubell (Smuts) -died in 1902 - so this is not the Wessel you've linked all the info to so well above - as he is born after death.

Now, I think you've seen that already - but yet you still seem happy that we've found a place for him in this tree. Which is the bit I'm not seeing so well - although I agree that the Smuts connection can't be coincidence.

Am I just being dense? :-)

Private User
7/22/2012 at 4:42 AM

Hi Sharon,

You're not being dense; all these repetitive names are confusing.

Above, i said that: "The elder Wessel could very well be the son of Maria Dorothea Smuts." ; I think now that should actually read grandson.

Adapting Mike Doubell's tree to what we know above, I think this *might* be the correct layout:

- Maria Dorothea Smuts (1860 - 1902) marries Mr. Doubell (on Maria's profile I noted that his name was given as Walter David Peter Doubell in Maria's Estate Papers, but I do not know how he fits into the tree)

- Maria Smuts and Mr. Doubell have at least two children, Wessel Michael Smuts Doubell I, named after Maria's father, and Henry Jones Doubell.

- WMS Doubell I - Wessel Doubell - marries an as yet unknown woman; they have at least one child, WMS Doubell II

- WMS Doubell II marries Georgina Frances Bissett

- WMS Doubell II and Georgina Bissett have at least two children: WMS Doubell III (1918 - 1952) and Alfred Erk Bissett Doubell.

- WMS Doubell III (1918 - 1952) marries Sybil Isobel Graham; their son is WMS Doubell IV (aka Mike Doubell)

- WMS Doubell IV (aka Mike Doubell) marries Diane Edith Howes

7/22/2012 at 8:45 AM

Okay, drew a pic from yr verbal schematic - thank you.

Got all excited, and then realised that the problem still remains :-(
that -
Altho all this info may link to prove that the WMS Doubell II (1918-1952) is the grandson of WMS Doubell I (via WMSII & Georgina Bissett / - altho the Mannix is a bit of a curved ball?)

- We still have no definitive connection to his parents as Maria Dorothea Smuts (c1860 - 1902) and William David Peter Doubell.

*&( !! Frustrating.

Given the next generation''s tendency to name all the oldest cousins by the same name: (My father's eldest sister and all her eldest cousins are called by variations on Hesther/Esther/Essie?Hessie to distinguish between them etc)

So it is possible that all these 3 men had sons called Walter too:
Henry Doubell;
Charles 'Lee';
Walter.

Do we need to eliminate these possibilities, or data for the WMSI's parents before we add this (very likely imo) descendent tree in?

7/22/2012 at 8:49 AM

Sorry - typo above 'WMS Doubell II (1918-1952)' is III

Private User
7/22/2012 at 10:37 AM

I do agree that we now need to focus on finding Steytlerville baptism and marriage records for WMS Doubell I and II; unfortunately, it doesn't look like FamilySearch.org or Ancestry24.com have the necessary records available as yet.

As for the Mannix - I can only guess that either Mike Doubell was mistaken, or Georgina was previously married. (I have sent all this info to Mike Doubell, but haven't received a response yet)

7/22/2012 at 11:21 AM

Okay, my husband is having a great time here speculating with possibilities. He says we only have one spare WDP body in the graveyard unaccounted for :-) born appeox 1861.

He wonders if the gap between the death of Anna Meiring (1st wife), and the birth of Henry (1862) by 2nd wife Ester Jones, does not leave space for an elder brother to Henry as Ester's 1st child called......

you guessed it:

WDP (the Steytlerville grave 1861-1950 for a WDP that I photographed but can't find a profile for)

What if he married Maria Dorothea Smuts and so on from there..
(Then Wessel Michael Smuts Doubell is named for his mother's family surname; and the 2nd son, Henry Jones Doubell is named for his father's mothers family surname)

Of course he points out that WDP must then have married again in the 48yrs after Maria Dorothea's death in 1902, to account for the "my dear husband' bit on his grave.

Of course that just adds in another level of speculative link :-) :-)

I can email you the diagram if you like.

7/22/2012 at 11:57 AM

OK jacKpot on that speculation: Tony found a website that gives poor Ester Irabella 16 kids! including the WDP speculated to fit above, as well as the other unaccounted for Doubell grave there in Steytlerville: Gerhardus Stefanus, as another brother.

http://www.mytrees.com/ancestry/Other/Born-1881/Do/Doubell-family/D...

Of course it doesn't link Wessel Michael any more definitively than before as the son of WDP and Maria Smuts.

Private User
7/22/2012 at 1:02 PM

That website is a very interesting find; but I think it's worse than 16 kids.

According to Esther's Civil Death Record, that was filled out by her son Douw Doubell, she had a total of 19 children (it's right at the bottom of the document).
http://www.geni.com/documents/view/profile-6000000005739373007?doc_...

7/22/2012 at 1:10 PM

Oh yes, I printed that out. It's in the same file (Really I have a sieve for a brain!) Poor poor woman! (her, not me :-)

Tony's found other pages on that site that suggest our speculative link to to Wessel may not be correct, though. There's another Smuts mother involved too. Will report back next week.
Unfortunately we can't get any further into that site to check their sources without paying.

7/22/2012 at 1:14 PM

Tony says that on that basis the poor woman deserves someone putting up a new gravestone for her - she's the mother of the nation!!

Private User
7/27/2012 at 5:21 AM

Hi Sharon,

I received an e-mail from MIke Doubell confirming that the gravestone and baptism record mentioned above for Wessel Michael Smuts Doubell (1918 - 1952) are indeed for Mike's father; the baby boy buried next to Wessel, Martin Graham, is Mike's brother.

I also asked about the Mannix surname - minor confusion, Georgina's sister was the one who married a Mr. Mannix; Georgina's maiden name is indeed Bissett.

Mike is not certain when and where WMS Doubell II and Georgina Bissett were married, unfortunately, so could be Steytlerville, or elsewhere. He does however believe that they were also buried in Standerton, same as WMS Doubell III and Martin Graham.

7/27/2012 at 11:41 AM

Craig- you rock! I'll start putting the pieces in, unless you get there before me.

7/27/2012 at 11:42 AM
10/29/2012 at 6:13 AM

Yes, Wessel Michael Smuts Doubell is My Uncle, Michael and Sandra's Father, married to Sybil, who later became Crooks after Wessel pssed away. The other, younger Wessel Michael Smuts Doubell, born, 29/10/1952, just after WMS Doubell passed away, is the son of Alfred Esk Bisset Doubell, also son of Wessel Michael Doubell and Georgina Frances (Bisset, I think) as her sister Aunt Daisy was Mannix, now if Daisy Mannix was not married, this could be Mannix for my Gran, but.....?? The Mike Doubell that has commented is my cousin, which I have not seen since childhood in Standerton.

11/1/2012 at 5:59 AM

Hello my 3rd cousin. That's great. Is it all fitting together on the tree view?

Private User
11/2/2012 at 3:59 AM

Walter David Peter Doubell, a Widower and farmer of Steytlerville, received a Special Marriage License on 6 May 1903 to marry Charlotte Marthina Smuts, a spinster of Steytlerville. Charlotte was the daughter of the late Wessel Michael Smuts of Uitenhage.

Source: FamilySearch.org, "South Africa, Cape Province, Western Cape Archives Records 1796-1992", Steytlerville : Marriage records 1902-1916 vol 1/2/24/2/2/1, Image No.: 34, 35 and 36.

http://goo.gl/faaL0

11/2/2012 at 4:33 AM

Yess! Thank you cousin. So he married 2 sisters - both daughters of Wessel Smuts. Have merged that in.

I think that gives you henry doubell - another ggrandad on your tree.
Private User does it give you a direct connection to Henry?

Private User
11/2/2012 at 4:51 AM

Unfortunately FamilySearch still does not appear to have Steytlerville baptism records, but this information does match up with what we know so far; we also still have yet to determine who this Walter was the son of.

At the moment Henry is my fourth cousin once removed through Maria Dorothea Doubell nee Smuts.

11/2/2012 at 5:02 AM

PS I was presuming the mother was the same, http://www.geni.com/people/Mary-Smuts/60000000057797102457, because Charlotte Doubell's daughter is also called Maryann van Niekerk.

7/18/2013 at 12:20 PM

Ivan van Niekerk if you can make any sense of this lengthy discussion from last year, I think it might interest you. Please chip in if you have more data that helps here.

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