Descendentes de luso-flamengos

Started by George J. Homs on Monday, August 6, 2012

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Showing 1-30 of 108 posts
8/6/2012 at 11:19 PM

Bom dia!
I came across the recently accomplished studies of genealogist André Claeys, who has studied the history of about 20 families in Flanders that emigrated to Portugal, the Açores, Brazil... - starting 600 years ago. Here a biography of André Claeys on the web site of the Açores government: http://www.bparah.azores.gov.pt/html/bparah-arquivo+regional-docume...
A conservative estimate is that there are 30,000 living direct descendants from these families across the Portuguese world.
This can concern families called Leme, da Terra, Dutra, da Rosa, Goulart...
Claeys worked with Portuguese and Brazilian academics in order to complete their own research by inventorizing, for the first time, the old archives of the city of Bruges - a source that is is almost exclusively in old Dutch or Latin.
The research published by Claeys is also in Dutch.
I'll try progressively to establish on Geni the oldest connections that are researched and documented by André Claeys. This should, hopefully, deliver some interesting new connnections for everyone!

8/6/2012 at 11:27 PM

Correction: 30,000 living descendants of the "Lem family" - many more for ALL the families, of course.

8/7/2012 at 7:07 AM

Excellent, George! At least one former Brazilian president should be counted as a descendant of the Dutch you mention, then. He is João Belchior Marques Goulart, whose Açorean origin is well established, together with that of his mentor in politics and former president of Brasil as well, Getulio Dornelles Vargas. I don't think my Açorean ancestry has anything to do with those people from Brugge, but who knows?

8/7/2012 at 8:07 AM

Hello Marcos! Interestingly I read that, at some point, there were so many Flemish on the Açores that Portugal decided to send more Portuguese colonists in order to establish some balance :-) So, I would think that there must be a lot of Flemish blood in all those Açoran veins! I'm seeing so many cross-marriages as early as the year 1500.

8/7/2012 at 3:55 PM

Hi George, alô Marcos, boa parte desses 30.000 descendentes deve
ter nascido no Rio Grande do Sul, como eu. Vejam:
Martim Leme

8/8/2012 at 4:23 AM

Sim e não, Deisi :-) Afinal os Leme são a "cereja do bolo" do trabalho de Luiz Gonzaga da Silva LEME denominado «Genealogia PAULISTANA» :-))

http://buratto.org/paulistana/Lemes_1.htm

Ótima lembrança em relação a Jango, Marcos!

8/8/2012 at 4:42 AM

Olhem só o presente que George nos deu ontem: Luís Gonzaga da Silva Leme :-)) Só vi agora!

8/8/2012 at 5:06 AM

Coincidência, estou trabalhando na Genealogia Paulista, especialmente http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomaz_Dias_Baptista que dizem ser o tronco. Estou me divertindo muito, ora mesclo perfis de Lùcia, ora de Nívea. Está muito bom.

8/8/2012 at 5:24 AM

Needless to say, I'm pretty excited with the Açores right now. It's unbelievable the wealth of information that André Claeys has pulled together - obviously with the support of the Azores regional government. Claeys pays tribute to the amazing work of Luis Gonzaga da Silva Leme, but also points out to the problems of 19th century genealogy: as far as can be seen, no Brazilians at that time have been able to explore the archives of Bruges. So the interesting thing is that Claeys has spent 30 years doing that AND building the connections in the Azores archives. He also says that he has been working with the people that have picked up the work of Luis Gonzaga da Silva Leme.
So, I genuinely think that, on Geni, we might be pulling the world together by combining all these sources.
(Claeys points to some errors in the Genealogia Paulistana, but ONLY because they couldn't have had access to the Flemish archives, which document very well the overwhelming influence of the Flemish in the Azores.
Stay tuned - I think some Geni trees are in for a surprise :-)

8/8/2012 at 11:06 AM

It's a pity I can't read Claeys. Why didn't he write in French? I've been researching Brazilian and Portuguese parish books and I was amazed at the number of Açoreans in XIX century Rio de Janeiro, including some people from Santa Catarina Island. In Santa Rita parish, city of Rio, they amounted to roughly 1/3 of the faithful.
Agora, é com a Carla: grande ideia, Carla, de explorar a genealogia paulista. Tenho pesquisado os Arruda de Bananal, mas infelizmente nem todos os 13 filhos de Braz de Oliveira Arruda e Alda Maria Leme Nogueira tem descendência anotada. Se você encontrar alguma coisa nova, me avise, tá?

8/8/2012 at 12:11 PM

Marcos, André Claeys does apologize for it in his research. He understands and speaks Portuguese, but he can't write it. He's a native Flemish, so French is 'only' his second language. He offers all of his research for free, without claims, and says he hopes that someone can find the funds to translate. For some reason or another, the Açores government hasn't found a budget for it (tough times?).
Having said that, I think I should contact André Claeys because I'm a Dutch native and here on Geni we have tons of Portuguese speakers to pull the trees together :-)
My conservative guess is that we're talking about about 10,000 people in his research to enter and verify. I've done a few hundred, so far. I'll concentrate on the crucial connections between Flanders, Portugal and the Açores. I have had a few matches into Brazil already, so some families should already have new dimensions. I have only advanced on the descendants of Jacomo de Bruges and Martim Leme. That's just two families. There are another 15 or so to explore. I think we'll need another month to get it sorted. :-)
Obrigado por o seu feedback, Marcos. Este materia e muito interessante. Pensou que os Açores são o chave para muitas conneçaos!

8/8/2012 at 5:15 PM

Lindo presente mesmo , George! Acho esse debate muito importante!
Obrigado , Marcos e George!
Com certeza , os Açores estará muito presente ainda , para nós.
Estou trabalhando , já faz um ano , para fazer uma conecção com a Ilha Graciosa , nos Açores . João de Quadros Bittencourt , veio para o Brasil no começo do século XIX . Veio para a Bahia . Tenho muitas evidências , "garimpadas "mas ainda falta a prova definitiva . Está por pouco . Tenho tido contato com o genealogista dos Açores , George Forjaz , autor de livros importantíssimos de genealogia .
Estou esgotando tudo que posso conseguir via internet , e depois vou viajar ,atrás dessa pesquisa . Provavelmente uma "maratona " , pelo norte de Minas Gerais , no caminho do diamante , "estrada real " .
Essa história é incrível!

8/9/2012 at 10:22 AM

If you ever need a modest hand over here, count on me, George. Now, did the Dutch settle in all the islands?

8/9/2012 at 12:58 PM

Ola Marcos.
Actually, the focus of the Flemish was on Terceira. But, some of them also spent some time on the smaller islands. There are also some links to Madeira, but later.
I think that Portugal had a serious problem finding people to settle in the Açores. It seems, however, that the climate and ground was very good for wheat harvesting. I suspect that this was a good reason for the Flemish to go, as they probably had a stronger experience in wheat than the Portuguese.
When I look at the marriages, despite the Portuguese names, the majority of people seemed to be of Flemish origin. I see connections into original Portuguese families, but only few. That may be because of the bias of the research, of course. Still, the quantity of Flemish blood is truly amazing.
I guess that, 600 years later, it's very 'diluted'. Still, from a genealogy perspective, this gives so many new openings and family connections - merely 6 centuries ago (not Charlemagne ;-) ).
For some Flemish ancestry, there is a challenge. Even though the records clearly state an origin in Flanders, the Flemish that emigrated have left not much substantial trace in Flanders (normal, as they left, so no contracts, testaments, etc). This was pre-Trento, so no formal baptism records. Still, given that these Flemish on the Açores intermarried, and given that some families are very well documented, we still get very interesting connections.
A real pity that the research is in Dutch only. I can't verify or enter 10,000 profiles overnight. But, by checking the early connections, perhaps I can help to solidify the base :-)

8/9/2012 at 1:04 PM

If I may add... given the names I'm seeing and working through, I just feel that all Brazilians must be concerned :-) Even though the Azoran connection makes so much sense from a historical perspective, I'm disappointed in myself that I only discover it now :-) I really had no clue about this heavy Flemish presence.

8/10/2012 at 11:04 AM

Very interesting that the first president of Portugal not only has Azoran roots, but also that two components of his family name have Flemish origins... Manuel de Arriaga, 1° Presidente da República Portuguesa
* Brum comes from the "de Bruyn" immigrants
* da Silveira comes from the "van der Haeghen" immigrants
He now also is in our Big Tree :-)

Private User
8/10/2012 at 11:36 AM

Now you have added him to the big tree I now know he is my 21st cousin 2 x removed... (not really close family... ;-)) Thanks from a Dutchie!

8/10/2012 at 12:09 PM

19th cousin twice removed :-) I'm not satisfied, though. We should be able to find closer connections. The current connection for me doesn't even go through Bruges but through a pure Portuguese connection. But, I'm sure some more fundamental work around Bruges will be a next challenge.
Just so that our Portuguese/Brazilian friends know...
In the Netherlands, we have excellent access, online, to very old official archives. In Belgium, there is a challenge. There hasn't been the same effort in trying to take things online. The work there has mostly resided with local associations but the data are not easily accessible (not in a remote way).
Relevant for the Açores is that Bruges was really the 'business capital' of the world at some time, and that are lots of 'business records' that hold genealogical data. But, much still needs to be examined.
In the Low Countries and, again, in a general way, we look at migration paths from Bruges and northern France to Antwerp, and then to Holland. We find many connection paths that way for the world's big diasporas. In the case of the Açores, the immigrants from Bruges came straight to the islands, very early (probably because Bruges was loosing its economic status agaist Antwerp). Interestingly, some of these immigrants seem to have Dutch and French origins in the 12th-13th centuries, so we need some more digging and find recent original research.

8/10/2012 at 12:18 PM

Com certeza Lúcia. Quando expressei "boa parte" tinha em mente as
raízes açorianas em geral, e da Madeira, não especificamente dos Leme. Todos reconhecem a "primazia paulista" dos bandeirantes, e claro, de Paes Leme, na ampliação do nosso território. Nesse afã, e na busca de gado, burros e índios, deixaram muitos descendentes no Rio Grande do Sul, "inclusive eu" !!! Poucos brasileiros, mesmo grandes genealogistas, já se aperceberam disso que agora causa espanto ao
nosso companheiro George J. Homs, a quem rendo minha homenagem pela celeridade com que, em poucos dias, pôs o dedo
no "nó górdio" da questão da representatividade dos açorianos(que
foram trazidos tardiamente, had hoc, para povoar e defender o Brasil meridional. Há quem diga que eles e seus descendentes chegaram a representar, em certo momento, mais de 50% da população branca de todo o Estado. Ainda hoje "Brum da Silveira" é quase tão "gaúcho" quanto "Pereira da Silva" é brasileiro. George matou a cobra e mostrou o pau: até o primeiro presidente português pertence à linhagem luso-açoriana que deita nos antigos domínios flamengos de Portuga. E tome surpresa -- é mais um dos primos ilustres: Manuel de Arriaga, 1° Presidente da República Portuguesa Tal como Valdenei Corrêa da Silveira, o grande mestre da genealogia gaúcha que me brindou - for free - com os perfís numerados no modo Ahnentafel, de mais de 30 gerações de minha família, onde aparecem algumas dezenas, senão centenas, de descendentes madeirenses e açorianos. Grande abraço, Deisi

8/10/2012 at 2:05 PM

Obrigado, Deisi. It will be a long road, but we'll get there :-)

8/10/2012 at 4:45 PM

Ok George.
Now, thanks to you, I'm sure of that.
As you can see, beside of Jango:
Jango Goulart
we have Getúlio Dornelles Vargas:
Getúlio Vargas, 14º e 17º Presidente do Brasil
and several others important names in the "gaúcho-azorean"
descendancy, from the very begining of those islands, Madeira,
with the first arrivel of my 20th great grande father João Gonçalves
Zarco:
João Gonçalves Zarco

Greetings,
Deisi

8/10/2012 at 5:26 PM

A gift to George: look what those special azorean people made all-over my south home-land:
http://mail.mailbrturbo.brturbo.com.br/mail/?ui=2&ik=03cde2e686...
Greetings,
Deisi

8/10/2012 at 6:28 PM

Vejam Carla e Lúcia, que são todos os descendentes dos açorianos, não apenas eu, os nexos com o resto do mundo. Aqui dá pra ver que apenas dois sobrenomes comuns na cidade de Piratini-RS(d'Ávila e Silveira), onde foram fixados casais açorianos, fazem a ponte até Roma antiga;
Claudius I, Roman Emperor
e dali até o Egito de Cleópatra:
Marcus Antonius "Mark Antony"
Grande abraço,
Deisi

8/10/2012 at 7:59 PM

Claudius Antonius my 48 great grandfather

Private User
8/11/2012 at 4:10 AM

39th ggrandfather.

8/11/2012 at 7:26 AM

Hi Grant Hanson: nice to know you 23th cousin:
Stanley Hanson
Hi Denise La von Frazer: nice to meet you again 20th cousin:
Private User
Greetings,
Deisi

8/11/2012 at 7:45 AM

Hi Jennie Schouten: nice do know you too, 23th cousin:
Cornelis Fransz de Witt
Greetings,
Deisi

Private User
8/11/2012 at 8:56 AM

Hey Desi, nice to meet you 22nd cousin once removed.! Jan Kornelis de Witt is my 7th cousin 11 times removed... I write it here but cannot picture that...
Nice to be in another arrea than I am used to be. Maybe when George had added the 10.000 profiles (is he close to do that? :-)) we'll be 19th cousins once removed. Anything is possible thanks to your and others work and George speeding up things. George, are you ready tomorrow? (just joking but with George and all his hard work you never know ;-))

8/11/2012 at 9:33 AM

Sugestão bibliográfica para as raízes açorIanas no Brasil:
"PIONEIROS AÇORIANOS-Notas históricas e genealógicas", de Carlos
Roberto Martins Brasil, Edigal/ Renascença, 307p., 2005, Porto Alegre-RS, 51-3227.4613/3334.4399;
"POVOADORES DE PIRATINI-Açorianos(Casais d'El-Rei)", de Jayme Lucas d'Ávila, Suliani/Letra&Vida, 351p.,2007, Porto Alegre-RS,
53-3257.1322: jdavila@supersul.com.br ;
"MEMORIA AÇORIANO" de Luiz Antonio Alves:
Tomo I-Famílias Pioneiras do Rio Grande do Sul", 291p.,2007,edição
do autor, 54-3212.2997, Caxias do Sul-RS, tonybel@uol.com.br ;
Tomo XLVI-Famílias Povoadoras do Estado de São Paulo, 568p.,2011,
idem, idem, idem, www.fuj.com.br
Grande abraço, Deisi

8/11/2012 at 10:27 AM

No 10,000 profiles, yet - but I've spent a bit of time on Google Earth to get a better feeling for how it must have felt 600 years ago.
If I may add a bit of history? The Wikipedia page on the Azoran history suggests there were about 2,000 Flemish on the Azores in 1490! That's ENORMOUS, isn't it? How could that happen? Wikipedia doesn't tell everything.
Remember that Philippe III "le Bon", duc de Bourgogne (founder of the order of the Golden Fleece) was reigning out of Bruges. His wife, was Isabella Duchess of Burgundy, who's brother was Henrique de Portugal, Duque de Viseu.
The people in Bruges were loosing their economic power, and ther was unrest. Isabel de Portugal felt that they had to give some local nobility (and their people) the chance to acquire new richesse somewhere else.
At that time, Lodewijk van Gruuthuse was one of the most influential people, in the court of Philippe de Bourgogne. Lodewijk's brother, Jácome de Bruges, governador de Terceira, was in the service of Henrique 'o Navegador'. Other locals like Maerten Lem (Leme), de Hurtere (de Utra), de Kersemaeker (later called da Silveira) etc... were all close and close to power.
That's how it happened. Jacome de Bruges became the first governor of Terceira, and he and his friends brought all those Flemish over.
There are lots of interesting stories to be read. Most amazing, given the size of the islands (look on Google Earth - small but beautiful), but given its strategic position and the genealogical impact on Brazil and (later) the US even more amazing and fascinating!
As I tend to say, I learn every day :-)

Showing 1-30 of 108 posts

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