Tul, Princess of MORAY - Help! Tangle :-)

Started by Sharon Doubell on Saturday, August 11, 2012

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8/11/2012 at 2:49 AM

Using the Info on this profile (for which it would be great if we could get sources), I am disconnecting her from being the mother of Angus (purported Mackay ancestor) as it appears to be a mismerge, based only on the NN status of his mother. This is an interesting area, that appears to have been duplicated and mis-merged (mostly because the sources are anecdotal, I think.) It would be great if we could figure out a most likely best fit together:

The only solid lineage sources I can find in this area are:

>>>Lulach & his wife had two children: [http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTTISH%20NOBILITY.htm#_Toc268450047 (Cawley's Medlands)]

>>>>(a) [Máel Snechtai mac Lulaich, King of Moray MAELSNECHTAI] (-1085). A grant by "Maelsnecte son of Luloeg" to the church of Deer is recalled in a notice of grants between 565 and 1100[502]. Mormaer of Moray until 1078. Monk. [http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTTISH%20NOBILITY.htm#_Toc268450047 (Cawley's Medlands)]

>>>>(b) daughter . Her parentage is confirmed by the Annals of Ulster which record the death in 1130 of "Angus son of the daughter of Lulach” in a battle “between the men of Scotland and the men of Moray”[503]. The name of her husband is not known. m ---. One child: [http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTTISH%20NOBILITY.htm#_Toc268450047 (Cawley's Medlands)]

>>>>>(1) ANGUS (-killed in battle Strickathrow 1130). Mormaer of Moray. Moray was conquered by the Scots in 1130 after Mormaer Angus's defeat at Strickathrow[504]. The Annals of Ulster record the death in 1130 of "Angus son of the daughter of Lulach” in a battle “between the men of Scotland and the men of Moray”[505]. John of Fordun´s Scotichronicon (Continuator) records that "Malcolmus filius Macheth" lied to claim he was "filium Angusii comitis Moraviæ" who was killed "tempore…regis David…apud Strucathroth a Scotis"[506]. [http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTTISH%20NOBILITY.htm#_Toc268450047 (Cawley's Medlands)]

Does anybody have any other sources to add?
I'll attach the Angus Info underneath this too; It's anecdotal, but we don't seem to have much else.

8/11/2012 at 2:51 AM

Óengus mac inghine Lulaich, ri Moréb:

The Clan Mackay is said to have been once known as the Clan Morgan, a Morayshire clan of the 12th. century lead by Duncan mac Sithig. Many scholars believe that some of these early Morgan men married into the old MacEth Royal House of Moray, who are said to descend from a Earl Aed, husband of the daughter of Lulach, King of Scots, who died in 1057.

After the death of Earl Aed (c.1128) the leadership of Moray fell on his son Earl Angus, who had a son, or brother, known as Malcolm macHeth (MacEth), said progenitor of the Mackays. He and Earl Angus rose in rebellion against the new feudal laws imposed by David I upon their ancient kingdom of Moray. They were defeated. in 1130.

Earl Angus was slain and MacEth escaped to the isles where he saught protection under Somerled, Lord of the Isles. It may have been about this time that MacEth married Somerleds sister and had two known offspring, Donald and Gormiath (Blue eyes), who married Harold Maddadarson, Norse Earl of Orkney and Caithness.

8/11/2012 at 3:01 AM

I am also removing Angus as Maelsnechtai's son, which I think is also the result of a mismerge, as it is not mentioned in the info on the profile:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A1el_Snechtai_of_Moray

Máel Snechtai of Moray (or Máel Snechtai mac Lulaich) was the ruler of Moray, and, as his name suggests, the son of Lulach, King of Scotland.

He is called on his death notice in the Annals of Ulster, "Máel Snechtai m. Lulaigh ri Muireb" (="Máel Snechtai, Lulach's son, King of Moray"), which is a significant terminological development, since previously the titles for the ruler of Moray had either been "King of Scotland" or "Mormaer." The title is repeated for his successor, Óengus (if indeed the latter were his successor).

Perhaps then the events of Máel Snechtai's caused some kind of identity disassociation between the Men of Moray and the Men of Scotland. The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, s.a. 1078, reports that "In this year Máel Coluim seized the mother of Máel Snechtai ...and all his treasures, and his cattle; and he himself escaped [only] with difficulty."

Sadly, the ... represents a lacuna in the text one line long; [1] but it is clear that Máel Snechtai was defeated by King Máel Coluim III in some kind of conflict. Grant's suggestion [2] that Máel Snechtai subsequently retired to a monastery is based only on textual innuendo, and is made unlikely by the fact that he was called "King of Moray" on his death.

Máel Snechtai, as the son of King Lulach, undoubtedly perceived himself as the rightful king of Scotland, and the already noted conflict with Máel Coluim III strongly suggests that he pursued his claim.

His death date is based on the year given by the Annals of Ulster, s.a. 1085.

References
*[1]. A.O. Anderson, Scottish Annals, p. 100.
*[2]. A. Grant, "The Province of Ross", p. 103.

Bibliography

Anderson, Alan Orr, Early Sources of Scottish History: AD 500-1286, 2 Vols, (Edinburgh, 1922)

Anderson, Alan Orr, Scottish Annals from English Chroniclers: AD 500-1286, (London, 1908), republished, Marjorie Anderson (ed.) (Stamford, 1991)

Grant, Alexander, "The Province of Ross and the Kingdom of Alba", in E.J. Cowan and R.Andrew McDonald (eds.), Alba: Celtic Scotland in the Medieval Era, (Edinburgh, 2000)

8/11/2012 at 3:53 AM

Other curators of profiles here: Private User Terry Jackson (Switzer); Ben M. Angel

(Please note, my 'disentangle Disccussion Curator note has usurped some of you as Curators. Not my intention. Please just take it back)

11/8/2012 at 9:04 AM

In the absence of contributed sources I am keeping Lulach's daughter as NN: NN
(although she appears to possibly coincide with some of the data on Tul's profile, there are enough extra husbands and kids to assume that this may be a result of being merged into her at some time.)

As there is so far not a scrap of evidence for Tul's existence, I'm going to position her as the sister of NN, daughter of Lulach (NN)- simply in order not to leave her floating.

3/4/2013 at 2:01 AM

Note - after merges, the question of a surname MacEth or Duff clan has been erased. Just logging it here, in case anyone makes any sourced progress with this.

3/6/2013 at 5:13 AM

Added to Medieval Scratchpad project so we can research further: http://www.geni.com/projects/Medieval-Scotland-Scratchpad-for-resea...

3/7/2013 at 3:54 AM

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GENRATIONAL REGISTER

Descendant Register, Generation No. 1

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1.Gillecomgain Mormaer of MORAY was born ABT 1000 in Morayshire, Scotland, and died ABT 1031 in Scotland. He married Gruoch of SCOTLAND , Lady Macbeth, daughter of Beodhe Prince of SCOTLAND. She was born ABT 1015 in Scotland.
Child of Gillecomgain Mormaer of MORAY and Gruoch of SCOTLAND , Lady Macbeth is: +2 i.Lulach "The Fool" King of SCOTLAND was born ABT 1031 in Morayshire, Scotland, and died 17 MAR 1057/58 in Killed in Battle at Strathbogie, Scotland.

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Descendant Register, Generation No. 2
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2.Lulach "The Fool" King of SCOTLAND (Gillecomgain Mormaer of MORAY1) was born ABT 1031 in Morayshire, Scotland, and died 17 MAR 1057/58 in Killed in Battle at Strathbogie, Scotland. He was buried in Stepson of Macbeth. He married Fimmghuala of ANGUS, daughter of Sinill Mormaer of ANGUS. She was born ABT 1030 in Angusshire, Scotland.
Child of Lulach "The Fool" King of SCOTLAND and Fimmghuala of ANGUS is: +3 i.Tul Princess of SCOTLAND was born BEF 1058 in Morayshire, Scotland.

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Descendant Register, Generation No. 3
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3.Tul Princess of SCOTLAND (Lulach "The Fool" King of SCOTLAND2, Gillecomgain Mormaer of MORAY1) was born BEF 1058 in Morayshire, Scotland. She married Heth (Beth\Ed\Head) EDELRAD , 1st Earl of Fife, son of Malcolm III Canmore King of SCOTLAND and Ingibiorg FINNSDOTTIR. He was born ABT 1062 in Morayshire, Scotland, and died AFT 1115 in Methil, Fifeshire, Scotland.
Children of Tul Princess of SCOTLAND and Heth (Beth\Ed\Head) EDELRAD , 1st Earl of Fife are: +4 i.Duff MacEth "2nd Earl" of FIFE was born ABT 1078 in Methil, Fifeshire, Scotland.+5 ii.Miss MACETH was born ABT 1083 in Methil, Fifeshire, Scotland.

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Descendant Register, Generation No. 4
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4.Duff MacEth "2nd Earl" of FIFE (Tul Princess of SCOTLAND3, Lulach "The Fool" King of SCOTLAND2, Gillecomgain Mormaer of MORAY1) was born ABT 1078 in Methil, Fifeshire, Scotland.
Children of Duff MacEth "2nd Earl" of FIFE are: +6 i.Gillemichel MACDUFF , 3rd Earl of Fife was born ABT 1098 in Methil, Fifeshire, Scotland, and died BEF JUL 1136 in Methil, Fifeshire, Scotland.+7 ii.Dufugan 1st Earl of ANGUS was born ABT 1099 in Angus, Forfarshire, Scotland, and died AFT 1115.
5.Miss MACETH (Tul Princess of SCOTLAND3, Lulach "The Fool" King of SCOTLAND2, Gillecomgain Mormaer of MORAY1) was born ABT 1083 in Methil, Fifeshire, Scotland. She married Alexander I "The Fierce" King of SCOTLAND, son of Malcolm III Canmore King of SCOTLAND and St. Margaret Aetheling of SCOTLAND. He was born ABT 1080 in Atholl, Perthshire, Scotland, and died 23 APR 1124 in Stirling, Stirlingshire, Scotland.
Child of Miss MACETH and Alexander I "The Fierce" King of SCOTLAND is: +8 i.Malcolm II MACETH , 1st Earl of Ross was born BEF 1103 in Methil, Fifeshire, Scotland, and died 23 OCT 1168 in Morayshire, Scotland.

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Descendant Register, Generation No. 5
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6.Gillemichel MACDUFF , 3rd Earl of Fife (Duff MacEth "2nd Earl" of FIFE4, Tul Princess of SCOTLAND3, Lulach "The Fool" King of SCOTLAND2, Gillecomgain Mormaer of MORAY1) was born ABT 1098 in Methil, Fifeshire, Scotland, and died BEF JUL 1136 in Methil, Fifeshire, Scotland.
Children of Gillemichel MACDUFF , 3rd Earl of Fife are: +9 i.Duncan MACDUFF , 4th Earl of Fife was born ABT 1118 in Methil, Fifeshire, Scotland, and died 1154.+10 ii.Hugo I MACDUFF , of Methil, Sir was born ABT 1125 in Methil, Fifeshire, Scotland, and died 1168.+11 iii.Eoghin Hugh Abbot of ABERNETHY was born ABT 1129 in Abernethy, Fifeshire, Scotland.
7.Dufugan 1st Earl of ANGUS (Duff MacEth "2nd Earl" of FIFE4, Tul Princess of SCOTLAND3, Lulach "The Fool" King of SCOTLAND2, Gillecomgain Mormaer of MORAY1) was born ABT 1099 in Angus, Forfarshire, Scotland, and died AFT 1115. He married Fynbella MEARNS. She was born ABT 1100 in Mearns, Kincardineshire, Scotland.
Child of Dufugan 1st Earl of ANGUS and Fynbella MEARNS is: +12 i.Gillbride Gilibride\Gillebride 2nd Earl of ANGUS was born ABT 1123 in Angus, Forfarshire, Scotland, and died ABT 1187.
8.Malcolm II MACETH , 1st Earl of Ross (Miss MACETH4, Tul Princess of SCOTLAND3, Lulach "The Fool" King of SCOTLAND2, Gillecomgain Mormaer of MORAY1) was born BEF 1103 in Methil, Fifeshire, Scotland, and died 23 OCT 1168 in Morayshire, Scotland. He married Sister of Somerled of the ISLES, daughter of Gillebride Mac Gille Adomnan of the ISLES and Miss SIGURDSDOTTIR. She was born ABT 1123 in Morven, Argyllshire, Scotland.
Children of Malcolm II MACETH , 1st Earl of Ross and Sister of Somerled of the ISLES are: +13 i.Gormflaeth MacHeth Countess of ORKNEY was born ABT 1143 in Orkney, Orkney Islands, Scotland.+14 ii.Malcolm of ROSS was born 1158 in Ross, Morayshire, Scotland.

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Descendant Register, Generation No. 6
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9.Duncan MACDUFF , 4th Earl of Fife (Gillemichel MACDUFF , 3rd Earl of Fife5, Duff MacEth "2nd Earl" of FIFE4, Tul Princess of SCOTLAND3, Lulach "The Fool" King of SCOTLAND2, Gillecomgain Mormaer of MORAY1) was born ABT 1118 in Methil, Fifeshire, Scotland, and died 1154.
Children of Duncan MACDUFF , 4th Earl of Fife are: +15 i.Alfreka (Afrika) of FIFE was born ABT 1140 in Methil, Fifeshire, Scotland.+16 ii.Duncan MACDUFF , 5th Earl of Fife was born ABT 1144 in Methil, Fifeshire, Scotland, and died AFT JUL 1203.
10.Hugo I MACDUFF , of Methil, Sir (Gillemichel MACDUFF , 3rd Earl of Fife5, Duff MacEth "2nd Earl" of FIFE4, Tul Princess of SCOTLAND3, Lulach "The Fool" King of SCOTLAND2, Gillecomgain Mormaer of MORAY1) was born ABT 1125 in Methil, Fifeshire, Scotland, and died 1168.
Child of Hugo I MACDUFF , of Methil, Sir is: +17 i.Hugo II MACDUFF , of Methil, Sir was born ABT 1148 in Methil, Fifeshire, Scotland, and died 1200.
11.Eoghin Hugh Abbot of ABERNETHY (Gillemichel MACDUFF , 3rd Earl of Fife5, Duff MacEth "2nd Earl" of FIFE4, Tul Princess of SCOTLAND3, Lulach "The Fool" King of SCOTLAND2, Gillecomgain Mormaer of MORAY1) was born ABT 1129 in Abernethy, Fifeshire, Scotland.
Child of Eoghin Hugh Abbot of ABERNETHY is: +18 i.Orm Abbot of ABERNETHY was born ABT 1155 in Abernethy, Fifeshire, Scotland.
12.Gillbride Gilibride\Gillebride 2nd Earl of ANGUS (Dufugan 1st Earl of ANGUS5, Duff MacEth "2nd Earl" of FIFE4, Tul Princess of SCOTLAND3, Lulach "The Fool" King of SCOTLAND2, Gillecomgain Mormaer of MORAY1) was born ABT 1123 in Angus, Forfarshire, Scotland, and died ABT 1187. He married Miss DUNBAR in 1st wife, daughter of Gospatric III 2nd Earl de DUNBAR , Sir and Derdere. She was born ABT 1124 in Dunbar Castle, East Lothian, Scotland, and died BEF 1179. He married Ingibiorg Ericsdottir of ORKNEY BEF 1179 in 2nd wife, daughter of Eric Stagbrellir of ORKNEY and Ingigerd of ORKNEY. She was born AFT 1156 in Orkney, Orkney Islands, Scotland.
Children of Gillbride Gilibride\Gillebride 2nd Earl of ANGUS and Miss DUNBAR are: 19 i.Adam (Angus) 3rd Earl of ANGUS was born ABT 1140 in Angus, Forfarshire, Scotland, and died BEF 1198.+20 ii.Gilchrist 4th Earl of ANGUS was born ABT 1143 in Angus, Forfarshire, Scotland, and died BET 1207 AND 1211.+21 iii.Gilbert OGILVY was born ABT 1145 in Ogilvy, Angusshire, Scotland.

Child of Gillbride Gilibride\Gillebride 2nd Earl of ANGUS and Ingibiorg Ericsdottir of ORKNEY is: +22 i.Magnus GILLBRIDESSON , Earl of Caithness & Orkney was born ABT 1180 in Orkney, Orkney Islands, Scotland, and died 1239 in Orkney, Orkney Islands, Scotland.
13.Gormflaeth MacHeth Countess of ORKNEY (Malcolm II MACETH , 1st Earl of Ross5, Miss MACETH4, Tul Princess of SCOTLAND3, Lulach "The Fool" King of SCOTLAND2, Gillecomgain Mormaer of MORAY1) was born ABT 1143 in Orkney, Orkney Islands, Scotland. She married Harald MADDADSON , Earl of Caithness & Orkney BEF 1160 in 2nd wife, son of Madach (Madadd) 1st Earl of ATHOLL and Margaret Hakonsdottir of ORKNEY. He was born 1130 in Caithness-shire, Scotland, and died 1206 in Orkney Islands, Scotland.
Child of Gormflaeth MacHeth Countess of ORKNEY and Harald MADDADSON , Earl of Caithness & Orkney is: +23 i.John HARALDSSON , Earl of Caithness & Orkney was born ABT 1162 in Orkney Islands, Scotland, and died AFT AUG 1231 in Thurso, Caithness-shire, Scotland (dspms).
14.Malcolm of ROSS (Malcolm II MACETH , 1st Earl of Ross5, Miss MACETH4, Tul Princess of SCOTLAND3, Lulach "The Fool" King of SCOTLAND2, Gillecomgain Mormaer of MORAY1) was born 1158 in Ross, Morayshire, Scotland.
Child of Malcolm of ROSS is: +24 i.Ferquhard MacTaggart 3rd Earl of ROSS was born BEF 1195 in Applecross, Ross and Cromarty, Scotland, and died JAN 1250/51 in Tain, Ross-shire, Scotland.

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dawglovradded this on 26 Jun 2011

susanemccarrolloriginally submitted this to McCarroll Family Tree on 26 Nov 2009

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