Most Complete Jewish Tree?

Started by Randy Schoenberg on Saturday, December 29, 2012

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Showing 1-30 of 122 posts
12/29/2012 at 9:18 PM

So, who has the most "complete" Jewish tree? If we go back 10 generations, what profile on Geni has the most complete tree, i.e. the most known ancestors, the most different ancestors?

See the Complete Ancestors Trees project at http://www.geni.com/projects/Complete-ancestors-trees-iSeeTrees/11399

2/3/2013 at 4:02 PM

Someone must have done something because my supposed connection to King David is looking remarkably plausible. http://www.geni.com/path/Randy+Schoenberg+is+related+to+King+David+...

Still a few leaps/gaps; I wonder how much is fantasy/fiction. On the other hand at 97 generations (2^97 ancestors), no doubt King David figures in my (and everyone's) tree many billions of times over.

2/3/2013 at 4:12 PM

Randy,

Mine does too. http://www.geni.com/path/Kevin+Hanit+is+related+to+King+David+%D7%9...

He does not directly connect to me as my connection goes through a cousin of mine's wife.

2/3/2013 at 4:29 PM

Wendi,

I'm not complaining bat making a comment to Randy.

2/3/2013 at 8:02 PM

Kevin, your connection includes a big leap that probably should be severed. I used to have that too, but got rid of it. The new connection is 97 generations which almost sounds like it could be correct for 3,000 years. Crazy. The deep history is not my field at all, but I am curious what is behind it, whether there is good documentation. I know that even in the most recent ancestors on this line, the evidence can be a bit sketchy, so I presume that the later ones might be a bit speculative as well.

2/4/2013 at 8:02 AM

Randy,

My connection looks like to goes through part of the "Unbroken Chain" and then into the biblical tree. I think that there are at least 20 generations missing.

Private User
2/4/2013 at 8:46 AM

Because Rivkah Teomim (Horowitz) is my 10th grandmother, I guess that means my tree goes back to King David as well. So what? As Randy observes, no doubt that David shows up in the trees of many, many, Jewish researchers. The hard part is finding the generations in between.

2/4/2013 at 9:39 AM

Private User - you can find the links - if other Geni users Also include "Their Path" - to the famous pesrson with their relationship description. Below is my path to David:

http://www.geni.com/path/Peter+Rohel+is+related+to+King+David+%D7%9...

2/5/2013 at 5:57 AM

Randy Schoenberg What if you have more than one direct line to King David, but Geni automatically jumps to the shortest quickest, possibly less complete one?

For instance both my grandparents have distinct and separate paths to King David. The one on my grandfather's side is the same as yours ie. 95 generations, while grandmother is 62 generations.

ie.

King David MP Profile: King David / דוד המלך .

1. Grandfather, King David / דוד המלך . - King David / דוד המלך . is R' Yehoshua Citron's 93rd great grandfather.

2. Grandmother, King David / דוד המלך . - King David / דוד המלך . is Rachel Citron's 60th great grandfather.

Many rabbinical trees probably have multi paths to King David, but only the shortest and quickest one appears on Geni. Is there a way to teach the algorithm to override this tendency if it sees more than one line to a prominent profile like King David???

2/5/2013 at 7:18 AM

Malka Mysels, Michael Stangel - I have yet to find a way to override the Path to Blood line vs. Closest.

I sure hope - Geni & MH put the Path enhancements for Multiple Path Options - to Top of their Scheduled enhancements.

Mike, coud we see it soon ?? :)

http://www.geni.com/discussions/119588?msg=849203

Private User
2/5/2013 at 9:04 AM

If the "Davidic descent" notion seems more plausible, there is good reason :)

I have been slowly working backwards from al-Andalus and the Maghrib back through Palestine into Babylon....then back to Palestine. I am in the midst of sorting out the pre-talmudic academies and 'resh metlita' thereof. Adding Talmidic references and extant sources...as well as biographical info where possible. In essence reconstructing Shalshelet haQaballah of the Babylonian Tradition, and clearly noting where the Palestinian tradition diverges.

At the moment the Exilarch branches are correct from 2nd Temple period forward. Three (2) lines are incomplete

1. Shealtiel of Catalonia whose origin is sone of last Gaon of Pumbeditha. I've already started to fill-in the period between 999 and 1099. The original Catalonian lineages were provided by Moshe Shealtiel-Gracian; providing the bridge between Catalonia and Hachmei Provence back to Babylon.

2. Dayyan of Aleppo whose origin is Babylonian Yeshiva of Eretz Israel; Yeshiva was moved to present-day Damascus and Aleppo. Mitch Dayyan has been very helpful so this will go quickly - especially since his Family authored a text "Sefer Yashir Moshe" which is a family-specific version of "Seder Olam Zuta".

3. Abravanel of al-Andalus whose origins can be traced to Nehardea - Shmuel of Nehardea's Academy. This is a more difficult line to work with since there are gaps...but not material gaps. It seems to parallel another lineage which will clear itself up in little while.

I have finished the Charlap lineage through Mar Zutra II back to Exilarchs of Palestine who fled to Babylon...all those famlies which decent from "ibn Yahya Family of Spain and Portugal" have clean path back.

I am trying to sort out Abravanel, too, but in order to do that I MUST get my head around the pre-Talmudic and post-Temple destruction academies, Resh Metlita and Gonim. Abravanel Lines trace back to "Rab" then branches into a different lineage (from Zutra and Bustenai lines) that appears to have been in al-Andalus before 2nd Temple destruction. I'll get this straightened out in another 30 days.

I've recently been side-tracked with Yosef of Fustat and his descendants - there is a peculiar confluence of families in Lucca and Rome which circumstantially appear to connect to Jews of Troyes but that's gonna take a lot of digging to sort out and that will take until end of 2013.

However, please temper your "Davidic descent" claims. There have been times where different lineages inter-married which confused lineages; daughters of the Daividc lines married non-Davidic lineages and these new non-Davidic Lineages then adopt the claim...and this has gone on long enough that more than a few families will be very upset if they are not genealogically connected to David haMelekh through paternal descent. Paternal decent from David haMelekh is a complex son-of-a-gun and it'll take some time to build out the profiles with concomitant sources and biographies.

The DNA analysis proves this complexity - there have been adoptions of Kohen orphans by Davidic Families, 2nd son exchanges with non-Jewish monarchies, and a host of other reasons that the DNA is an incoherent mess. To net it out, there are two sides to the descent formula and the female role in this cannot be trivialized...or overstated.

Hope that helps.

J

2/5/2013 at 10:02 AM

Private User What extraordinary ground breaking research! I am in awe.

2/5/2013 at 11:26 AM

Thanks Jaim. I think we should work to sever the multi-generation-skipping links. Anyone with a 60-generation path should look for the skipping profile (sometimes named "20 generations back to X") and sever the link so that you can maybe get a more plausible connection. Obviously there is a ton of guesswork in these old trees, so no one should ever take them too seriously. Still, it's a fun part of the big puzzle.

Private User
2/5/2013 at 1:13 PM

I agree Randy, we can help them locate the gaps and straighten it out. Once I get the late-antiquity and medieval genealogies fixed for Dayyan, Shealtiel and Abravanel it will be easier to make such corrections.

It is a great deal of fun, sometimes, to simply walk the tree and read up on our ancestors, their plights, their successes, their roles and their unsavory acts. No better reminder of mankind's frailties.

There IS a fair amount of "guess-work" involved, but without prior deep-immersion in our history and a **library of extant texts of the period** (as some have attempted to undertake) it is a spaghetti-mess of unrivaled proportions. At times this is very humbling...and ball-aching work :)

J

2/8/2013 at 9:50 PM

Jeff Gentes has set up a terrific app that charts out your tree completeness. See http://historylink.herokuapp.com/history

My chart looks like this
http://www.geni.com/photo/view?photo_id=6000000019351315045

I am still missing 2 of my ggg-grandparents, so only complete through my 16 gg-grandparents. Admittedly, one of my gg-grandparents was not Jewish.

So who has the most complete Jewish tree on Geni?

2/13/2013 at 7:04 PM

Definitely not me. Because of Neil Rosenstein's work and then all the genealogies of rabbinical families, I have a lot of ancestors through my father's mother. But forget through his father. It's as if my great grandparents severed their ties with Volhynia. Other relatives came but it's a mystery how they are related. Cousins? One may be my gg uncle but no one knew that my ggf had a brother here.

And of course there's that darn Mayflower line (all 27 of them) and the scores of Great Migration families wink wink.

2/18/2013 at 4:43 PM

Shmuel-Aharon Kam (Kahn) / (שמואל אהרן קם (קאן , Peter Rohel , Randy Schoenberg , Private User , Kevin Hanit Alert re collapse of all the King David / דוד המלך . connections.

Previously Geni indicated two lines to King David . See my post above 2/5/2013, now both are the same and both are broken.

1. King David was Grandfather , R'Yehoshua Citron's 93rd great grandfather, and now King David is 14th cousin 57 times removed.

2. King David was Grandmother, Rachel Citron's 60th great grandfather, and now it same as the paternal line, ie. 14th cousin 57 times removed.

2/18/2013 at 4:45 PM

Private User Any ideas re above corrupted connection?

2/18/2013 at 5:40 PM

Malka, Same thing with my connection. Someone must have merged or added in a shorter connection (way too short if he's only 57 times removed). No idea where to look for the error.

Private User
2/19/2013 at 6:29 AM

I will take a look at it today. I took a cursory glance yesterday and it appears someone has been screwing around.

I think I will lock these profiles so that religious zealots can't screw it up.

2/19/2013 at 6:54 AM

Please curators Lock historical or Famous profiles.
I have 300+ of them on my web page - and almost All of the shared path's have been lost in the past year - since I began.

Because geni does Not store (retain) the Previous path - it can be very time consuming to find out where it changed.

ps. see similar discussion below - in regards to King David, Adam & God - recent path changes

God Almighty is my 83rd great grandfathers! Who was keeping those logs of name? - http://www.geni.com/discussions/114261?msg=852914

Private User
2/19/2013 at 7:44 AM

Currently we can only lock profiles, not profile connections, so we don't have any tools to preserve a path, - we just have to trust that users don't sabotage, - which they usually don't.

2/19/2013 at 8:27 AM

a lot of people are starting to find out their true lineages - and, there is a lot of people who would rather they did NOT know that - IF THIS SITE doesn/'t protect itself better - it will end up getting attacked - i might have a copy of the lineage of king david - if a moderator wants to email me for it, thank you

2/19/2013 at 9:12 AM

Private User, Michael Stangel, Noah Tutak - I am just saying - Paths' should NOT be lost Monthly.

I have spent 100's of hours on Paths in the past year - and they are Lost too Often. Lost or changed path to King David, etc. - effects too many of us - and sometimes the Path between us Users.

If locking (MP) some of the Key profiles can't fixed the ever changing Path problems - we need to bring it up to Geni - and see what they can do.

The PATH feature is too important on Geni - and needs to be Somewhat Trusted - and Not change Monthly. If we (active users) have trouble with Paths (as mentioned in above posts) - New users really must be wondering - what is happening on Geni with the Path program.

*few others:
1) Relationship Path - technical difficulties?
http://www.geni.com/discussions/119588
2) God Almighty is my 83rd great grandfathers! Who was keeping those logs of name? - http://www.geni.com/discussions/114261?msg=852914
3) Should we cut the Irish line to Adam & Eve?
http://www.geni.com/discussions/120216?msg=853054
4) Relation to famous people
http://www.geni.com/discussions/108413?msg=849561

Private User
2/19/2013 at 10:47 AM

The smuggling of our geni profiles seems to be a new business in town ... this is to discount the reputation of our produce and encourage members to change genealogy new website.... this is what I read in what is happening in the psychological warfare imposed to us at geni without our knowledge ..... So I pray that maybe my reading of the things going on is not really the matter going on!!!!

Private User
2/19/2013 at 11:13 AM

We shall defend geni.com at all costs ... because the new version and most updated WORLD HISTORY encompassing all faiths and beliefs with the participation of no less than a million people encoding is the GENI.COM ... thanks be to God !!!

2/19/2013 at 2:50 PM

A lot of people are discovering their true lineages through www.geni.com - and, someone is worried about that - as, someone else suggested - it could be important to have the ability to lock profiles - and, changes only be allowed by professionals

Private User
2/19/2013 at 5:49 PM

what is worst is the third factor whose only intent is to do moneymaking out of our passions on searching factual history and the family tree of the world ... business is now the number one enemy encountered by us. And it seems that we are defenseless ... we need badly the intervention of the real wisdom, the Holy Spirit !!!

Private User
2/20/2013 at 9:27 AM

Going to our Jewish roots ....it is now confirmed thru this link:

http://www.geni.com/path/Andrei+uSTARes+ACOSTA+is+related+to+King+D...#

Private User
2/20/2013 at 9:53 AM

King David / דוד המלך . is Andrei uSTARes ACOSTA's 86th great grandfather!
Andrei uSTARes ACOSTA
You → Sabas (Cristobal) Acosta
your father → Restituto Acosta
his father → Nicanor Acosta
his father → Alejo Acosta, I
his father → Juana Ponce de Leon Acosta
his mother → Eulogio Ponce de Leon
her father → Felipe Ponce de Leon
his father → Pablo Ponce de Leon
his father → Antonio Ponce de León, XI duque de Arcos
his father → Joaquin Ponce de León Lencastre y Cárdenas, VII. duque de Arcos
his father → Manuel Ponce de León Fernández de Córdoba, VI. duque de Arcos
his father → Rodrigo Ponce de León y Álvarez de Toledo, IV. duque d'Arcos
his father → D. Luis Ponce de Leon, V marqués de Zara
his father → Rodrigo Ponce de Leon, III. duque d'Arcos
his father → D. Luis Christobal Ponce de Leon, II. Duque d'Arcos
his father → Rodrigo Ponce de León, I duque de Arcos
his father → Francisca Ponce de León Ximénez, IV Condesa de Arcos
his mother → Rodrigo Ponce de León
her father → Juan Pérez Ponce de León, II conde de Arcos
his father → Pedro Ponce de Leon, III
his father → Pedro Ponce de Leon, II
his father → Pedro Ponce de Leon
his father → Fernando Perez Ponce de Leon Ponce de Leon
his father → Fernan Perez Ponce de Leon
his father → Aldonza Alfonso de Leon de Leon
his mother → King Alfonso, IX of Leon
her father → King Fernando, II of Leon
his father → King Alfonso VII of Leon of Leon
his father → Princess Urraca of Leon of Leon
his mother → King Alfonso, VI of Leon
her father → Princess Sancha of Leon of Leon
his mother → King Alfonso, V of Leon
her father → King Vermudo, II of Leon
his father → King Ordono, III of Leon
his father → KIng Ordono, III of Leon
his father → King Ordono II of Leon of Leon
his father → King Alfonso III of Leon
his father → King Ordono I of Asturias
his father → King Ramiro I of Asturias
his father → King Vermudo I of Asturias of Asturias
his father → Prince Fruela of Asturias
his father → King Fruela of Asturias
his father → Hermisenda Pelaez of Asturias
his mother → Prince Pelayo of Asturias(Spain)
her father → Princess Liubigotona of the Visigoths
his mother → King Swinthila of the Visigoths
her father → Queen Chlodoswintha of the Visigoths
his mother → Queen Brunhilde of Austrasia
her mother → King Athanagild of the Visigoths
her father → King Gesalic of the Visigoths
his father → King Alarik II of the Visigoths
his father → Queen Ragnachilde of the Visigoths of France
his mother → King Merovec of the Franks
her father → King Clodius of the Franks
his father → King Faramound of the Franks, step son of Marcomir of Franks of the Franks
his father → Frotmund
his father → Boaz
his father → Frimutel
his father → Titurel. Grail King
his father → Manael. Grail King (Fictional)
his father → Catheloys, Grail King (Fictional)
his father → Aminadab, Grail King (Fictional)
his father → Josué, 3rd Grail Keeper (Fictional)
his father → Josephes, Bishop of Sarras (Fictional)
his father → Saint James "the Just", 1st Bishop of Jerusalem
his father → Saint Joseph
his father → Jacob ben Matthan
his father → Matthan ben Eli'ezar
his father → Eleazar
his father → Elihud
his father → Achim
his father → Zadok
his father → Azor
his father → Eliakim
his father → Abner
his father → Abiud
his father → Zerubbabel / זרובבל בן שאלתיאל
his father → Uzziah / עזיהו (Ajarja)
his father → Amaziah / אמציה King of Judah / מלך יהודה
his father → Jehoash / Joash / יואש / יהואש King of Judah / מלך יהודה
his father → Ahaziah / Akhazya / Ozias / אחזיה King of Judah / מלך יהודה
his father → Jehoram / יהורם King of Judah / מלך יהודה
his father → Jehosaphat / יהושפט King of Judah / מלך יהודה
his father → Asa / Asaph / אסא King of Judah / מלך יהודה
his father → Abijah / אביה King of Judah / מלך יהודה
his father → Rehoboam / רחבעם King of Judah / מלך יהודה
his father → King Solomon / שלמה המלך
his father → King David / דוד המלך .
his father

Showing 1-30 of 122 posts

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