Most Complete Jewish Tree?

Started by Randy Schoenberg on Saturday, December 29, 2012

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Showing 61-90 of 122 posts
Private User
3/14/2013 at 12:54 PM

Hi Randy,

Our mesora provides a good list back to Abraham. Research (archaeological or otherwise) has not yielded a compendium of names that bridge gaps in biblical generations in a literal fashion. If you'll indulge me for a moment I can elaborate, if verbosely.

If the many biographies of Abraham Avinu are to be believed, reconstructing the period in which he lived is easy. According to historians who have attempted to construct a timeline based upon generations, Abraham lived within the Hittite Empire roughly 1,800-1,650 BCE (during the time of Hammurabi). Abraham lived among the Hittites (Heth) – the empire which controlled Canaan during Abraham's time – and from the Hittites (Ephron in particular), Abraham (a geir) purchased that cave of Makhpelah. A verbal contract was entered into between Ephron and Abraham resulting in exchange of 400 shekels of silver. Thus we can infer that Ephron and Abraham communicated in a language acceptable to both. Perhaps it was Aramaic, perhaps Assyro-Babylonian...we do not know what language(s) Abraham spoke. But we are inclined to accept that Hittites and their vassals spoke Nesian, Akkadian AND Assyro-Babylonian (their trading partners) still others spoke Hurrian, writing it in cuneiform (Sumerian was extinct by 1,800 BCE).

What is especially important about Abraham's agreement with a Hittite, is the nature of Hittite agreements of that period. The Hittites, and the Assyrians for that matter, did not incorporate sprinkling the blood of slaughtered animals, on the parties to the agreement, in order to seal the agreement. If you'll recall, Bereishit tells us Abraham sacrificed a ram as a burnt offering whereby the ram was a proxy for Isaac – sacrificing children/people was at that moment replaced by sacrificing an animal. So we see two very important shifts in human behavior with regard to buying/selling property agreements AND abandonment of human sacrifice to attain favor from haShem. We can thank the Mittani of that period for the patrician attitude such agreements engendered among men. In that period of human history, such a purchase of property within the Hittite Kingdom rendered Abraham a protected Vassal of the Hittite Kingdom (Northern Syria)....protected from the Egyptians who were in the south of present-day Syria.

I describe the foregoing to make a point – there is no written text (clay tablet) which pre-dates that period, noted above, which elucidates such benevolent, and patrician, attitudes among men. The reason we know so much about Abraham Avinu was because Moshe Rabeinu told us Abraham's story as “the legacy of Kol Ya'akob”...there is no other source for the story. There are clay tablets which describe the time period in which Abraham lived, yet, academically speaking we have no evidence that he existed outside of our Shalshelet haQabbalah.

The Ebla/Tel Mardikh tablets tell us about the historic period in which Abraham thrived, yet they make no mention of Abraham or his father...on over 20,000 tablets. The Mari Tablets make no mention of him either on over 24,000 tablets. Why would we expect Abraham to be mentioned? Abraham's father was idol fabricator for King Nimrod of Shinar – a character described, in Bereishit, to be the great-grandson of Noach. This is difficult to accept since Bereishit tells us that Abraham is “10 generations” removed from Noach. Please keep in mind that “Land of Nimrod” is a biblical synonym for Assyria/Mesopotamia. So, is Abraham an Archetype for a law-giver who promotes the 7 laws of Noach (the 6 laws of Adamah + 1 law of Noach)? Is he literally a man? Is Nimrod a real person or an archetype of “Assyrian King Tukulti-Ninurta I”? No king named “Nimrod” is to be found anywhere in the ancient and extensive Mesopotamian records, including the Assyrian King List, nor the king lists of the Sumerians, Akkadian Empire, Babylonia or Chaldea. If Nimrod is an archetype, then what are we to make of the archetype's idol-maker and his son?

What does all this mean? Academically, there is no credible way to build a chain of names and heritage that reaches beyond Abraham Avinu. We run into problems with Abraham because of the religious fervor that surrounds the name “Abraham”...as father of the Abrahamic religions.

In the way I was taught - Adamah, not Adam, was the first self-aware human – we don't know if he lived 90,000 years ago or if he lived 5,000 years ago. However, Torah tells us that his son, Seth, carried his tradition of six (6) laws that were taught to all of his progeny. Therefore, I was taught Adamah was a person who formulated the foundational principles guiding organized civilized societies as we evolved from hunter-gatherers to domesticators of plants skilled in animal husbandry.

We then see, in Bereishit, a number of people carrying forward this Shalshelet haQabbalah until Noach. The six (6) laws of Adamah persist until Noach who then adds another law...that humans cannot eat meat cut from a living animal then leaving the animal to suffer its wound. Such was a common practice until then.

Bereishit tells us about the generations between Noach and Abraham...but it says nothing about new laws...only that the seven (7) Laws of Noach were carried forward to Abraham. This Shalshelet haQabbalah persists until Abraham Avinu...who is a game-changer. Abraham teaches this Shalshelet haQabbalah to his offspring...Yitzhak and Ishmael (to name a couple). Yitzhak teaches his Shalshelet haQabbalah to Ya'akob....Ya'akob has difficulty with these laws, constantly wrestling with them. This constant wrestling with the Laws earned him the name 'Israel'.

To be certain, we have no authentication of these stories outside of our mesora but our mesora tells us something important that lends credibility to the proposition that Abraham, Yitzhak and Ya'akob were literally men – our mesora tells us that the Torah (Law) conveyed by Moshe was the legacy of the community of Yakob...that Moshe memorialized the corpus of laws that were formulated between the time of Abraham and the Exodus from Egypt.

In the end, if the world's oldest extant texts offer no insight into methods of authentication of bilbical figures, we are left to accept them on faith...albeit with a great deal of circumspection :)

Private User
3/14/2013 at 3:11 PM

Thanks Shmuel for cutting the link. I also dislike such links.

Randy is however still Adam's 117th great grandson. There's now another problem link Messy Placeholder Don't Merge which bridges from Yehuda in Sefer Breishit to King David's era.

3/16/2013 at 10:40 AM

I've asked Shmuel-Aharon Kam (Kahn) / (שמואל אהרן קם (קאן to take a look at Messy Placeholder.

3/16/2013 at 10:47 AM

"Messy" is a temporary profile that I created to help clear up the mess some user(s) had accidentally made in this part of the tree. His "children" really belong all over the place, but I haven't found the time to properly research and clean it up.

Shmuel-Aharon

3/16/2013 at 12:30 PM

I for one look forward to your results Shmuel-Aharon Kam (Kahn) / (שמואל אהרן קם (קאן. Though I was raised a Christian and now profess to believe as Gandhi did about all great religions, Geni has told me that Abraham is my 95th gg and includes "Messy" in that lineage. Glad it is you as I have no idea what you can do.

I can't help, but I can encourage.

Private User
3/16/2013 at 3:01 PM

Messy having been disconnected, Randy is still Adam's 117th great grandson. This time the short-cut seems to be non-Biblical.

Based on Biblical source, ten generations below Noah / נח / نوح . should be Abraham. But in Randy's link back to Adam, ten generations below Noah / נח / نوح . brings us to Amminadab / עמינדב . who belongs in a much later generation than Abraham.

I can't say where in that line the problem is. I don't know what the sources are for such profiles as NN de Zemar. Given that profile was added by Charlemagne it looks suspect to me.

So I would say the issue is somewhere in http://geni.com/TNfBW

3/16/2013 at 3:07 PM

Here´s the path I´m getting... would seem (if 97 generations is the "control" for 3000 years...) that there are 20 generations, missing in my path, as well.

:-/

http://www.geni.com/path/Theresa+Renee+Elena+Tossas+Walker+is+relat...

3/16/2013 at 3:07 PM

King David / דוד המלך . is Theresa Renee Elena Tossas Walker's 72nd great grandfather!
Theresa Renee Elena Tossas Walker
You → Linda Sue Cox
your mother → Gladys Mae Kelley
her mother → Vivian Kelley
her mother → Floyd Cromer
her father → Elizabeth Cromer
his mother → Araminta Grosvenor
her mother → Francis Tufts Whitney
her father → Joseph Whitney
his father → Benjamin Whitney
his father → John Whitney
his father → Benjamin Whitney
his father → John Whitney, Sr.
his father → Sir Thomas Whitney
his father → Elizabeth
his mother → Morgan ap Williams
her father → William ap Yevan
his father → Yevan ap Morgan
his father → Morgan ap Hywel
his father → Gwenllian verch Llywelyn
his mother → Llywelyn ap Leuan Evan-Gethyn
her father → Ieuan ap Llywelyn
his father → Llywelyn ap Cynwrig
his father → Cynwrig ap Hywel, Lord of Radyr
his father → hywel ap madog
his father → Madoc Ap Jestyn Lord of Ruthyn
his father → Angharad verch Elystan
his mother → Elystan Glodrydd ap Cuhelyn, Earl of Hereford
her father → Cuhelyn ap Ifor, Lord Of Builth
his father → Ifor Seferws, Lord Of Builth
his father → Seferws ap Cadwr, Lord of Builth
his father → Cadwaladr ap Idnerth, King of Builth
his father → Idnerth ap Iowerth
his father → Arianwen verch Brychan, Saint
his mother → St. Brychan Gododdin, Brenin Brycheiniog
her father → Marchell verch Tewdrig
his mother → King of Garthmadrun Teuduric
her father → Morfudd (Morvitha)
his mother → Gwraldeg (Gwroldeg)
her father → Gwrthryw 1st king of Garthmadrun
his father → Marchudd unk
his father → Otta (Viano)
his father → Meuric (Mourig)
his father → Karnot (Cornodd) (Cornuithus)
his father → Llebryn (Liubuirnus)
his father → Maxime (Maximus)
his father → Othrac unk
his father → Enciede (Encride) "Ere"
his father → Emanuel "Rise"
his father → Sarclotus (Siarklotus)
his father → Jasna "Piliste" ha-David
his father → Joses
his father → Saint Joseph
his father → Jacob ben Matthan
his father → Matthan ben Eli'ezar
his father → Eleazar
his father → Elihud
his father → Achim
his father → Zadok
his father → Azor
his father → Eliakim
his father → Abner
his father → Abiud
his father → Zerubbabel / זרובבל בן שאלתיאל
his father → Uzziah / עזיהו (Ajarja)
his father → Amaziah / אמציה King of Judah / מלך יהודה
his father → Jehoash / Joash / יואש / יהואש King of Judah / מלך יהודה
his father → Ahaziah / Akhazya / Ozias / אחזיה King of Judah / מלך יהודה
his father → Jehoram / יהורם King of Judah / מלך יהודה
his father → Jehosaphat / יהושפט King of Judah / מלך יהודה
his father → Asa / Asaph / אסא King of Judah / מלך יהודה
his father → Maachah / מעכה
his mother → Tamar / תמר .
her mother → Absalom / אבשלום .
her father → King David / דוד המלך .
his father

3/16/2013 at 4:55 PM

It can't be the most complete because some Welsh genealogies go back to Adam and Eve. Also, a lot of Jews would say that Jewishness can only be inherited through the mother's line.

3/16/2013 at 5:11 PM

My path to King David is very odd, considering my background. He's my 70th ggf through - you guessed it - some Welsh kings. Whereas he ought to be related to me through any number of rabbinical lines that are supposed to descend from him :)

3/16/2013 at 5:46 PM
3/16/2013 at 5:47 PM

likely the same issue Hatte has

3/16/2013 at 6:07 PM

Gwraldeg (Gwroldeg) Added by: HIM Crowned (Anointed) Prince Corey du Lac Desposyni U.E. (Grail keeper) on February 13, 2013 (father of NN NN, maternal grandfather of St. Tewdrig, King of Gwent & Glywysing no wonder he can claim an unbroken Davidic line...

3/16/2013 at 6:15 PM
3/16/2013 at 11:46 PM

It's very sad, but the whole line from Gwraldeg (Gwroldeg) back to Siarklotus is very a modern invention. I will make MPs and clean up this part of the line.

This particular line is intended to provide a Davidic descent for Patrick o Éireann, Patron Saint of Ireland.

I sent a message to HIM Crowned (Anointed) Prince Corey of Lake Desposyni U.E. (Grail keeper) about a part of this line. He hasn't yet responded, but I assume he will when he gets some time.

The source seems to be _The Life of Saint Brychan: King of Brycheiniog and Family+, by Brian Starr (2008). This book and others by Mr. Starr should not be accepted as serious genealogical work.

Private User
3/16/2013 at 11:48 PM

Thank you, Justin. It's much appreciated.

3/17/2013 at 2:06 AM

thanks Justin, the path I show to David now looks much more plausible

3/17/2013 at 7:10 AM

Abraham was my great granddad 99 generations back, have a look at this

http://www.geni.com/path/Jan+Fredrik+Fallsen+is+related+to+Abraham+...

3/17/2013 at 7:36 AM
3/17/2013 at 8:24 AM

was asking about NN de Zemar
Is this link correct?

3/17/2013 at 8:55 AM

well the difference is that my bool line is about 100 generations and have't any missing links

3/17/2013 at 9:09 AM

Randy, I "inherited" the Zemar profiles from the user who chose to call himself Charlemagne.

I'm also skeptical, but this isn't an area I can do off the top of my head like some others. I think it these might be placeholder generations based on Genesis 38:2 where Shua is a Canaanite, and 1 Chronicles 1:13 where Canaan is the father of Zidon.

I will put it on my research list, but also hope that our Biblical expert Shmuel-Aharon Kam (Kahn) / (שמואל אהרן קם (קאן can find time to give us an informed opinion.

3/17/2013 at 9:35 AM

Jan Fredrik Fallsen, most of that line looks plausible (although it's always possible to quibble about specific links).

The problem link is Généarations Manquantes de Judée (Missing Judean Generations). See the profile for Hulda the Prophetess / חולדה הנביאה / هولدا النبية, where it cites Rabbinic literature for the tradition that Huldah and Jeremiah were descendants of Joshua and Rahab.

We've had many discussions about placeholder profiles on Geni. The general sentiment is that they should be removed because they skew the tree.

Here, we have three placeholder profiles -- for an unknown daughter of Joshua, for an unknown husband of that daughter, and for their child "Généarations Manquantes".

I will cut these loose. Maybe they should be deleted.

Looking at your line, I think it is very likely that Geni will find a different path for you to King David.

3/17/2013 at 9:39 AM

Zidon / צידון . is most definitely the eldest son of Canaan / כנען ., and sourced as such (Genesis 10:15).

I have no idea about these Zemars. The name implies they are actually descendants of Zidon's brother. I just removed evidence that a whole bunch of Canaan's children, "Zemarite" among them, had been merged together, before being merged into Zidon.

Private User
3/17/2013 at 9:43 AM

Is anyone investigating pre-King David?

3/17/2013 at 9:49 AM

Thanks, Shmuel. I'm becoming more certain the Zemars are just placeholder profiles to indicate people with Canaanite ancestry. I'll make it a priority to do some looking and see what can be moved or deleted.

3/17/2013 at 10:31 AM

living Cooley, I looked at your newest ludicrous line. You're right.

The Tuatha Dé Danann are the "people of the goddess Danu", not members of the Tribe of Dan. I renamed "unknown sea people de Danaans" to "Tuatha Dé Danann", put an explanatory note in the About, and shifted his parents to Neimhidh the Farmer and Macha, the legendary ancestors of the Tuatha Dé Danann.

There is still the problem of placeholder generations, but that's another problem for another day. As a preliminary step, I cut the placeholder ancestors of Heiress of Picts.

I don't see that it does anyone any good to link an unknown heiress to 8 placeholders representing an unknown number of generations back to a generic placeholder for a tribe descended from a mythical person ;)

If anyone disagrees, I'm open to discussion.

3/17/2013 at 10:59 AM

Maybe we just need a few more generations down for the Zemarites?

3/17/2013 at 11:31 AM

http://www.geni.com/path/Hatte+Blejer+is+related+to+King+David+%D7%...

Here's my non-Jewish path to King David. I'm totally bummed that with all the amazing lines I have in my Jewish ancestry, there is not a path or Geni doesn't show me a path through my numerous rabbinical lines that go back to Spain at least.

I'm running the arrow cycle to see if I can get a second path right now.

3/17/2013 at 11:35 AM

http://www.geni.com/path/King+David+%D7%93%D7%95%D7%93+%D7%94%D7%9E...

Did the wiser thing and checked my father's path and yes, he is a descendant (supposedly) through Jewish ancestors -- 91st ggson versus me being 85th ggdaughter through non-Jewish ancestors!

Showing 61-90 of 122 posts

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