Christoffel Snyman, SV/PROG - Is Snyman derived from Seugnet (Senaye) (Senayement =? from Senaye)

Started by Alexander Armenis on Thursday, July 18, 2013

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7/18/2013 at 2:22 PM

I thought Christoffel' s father was German "SNEIDER".
The French Huguenots arrived after 1686 in the Cape. Christoffel was born in the Cape around 1665 from an Indian mother van Pallicate.

It would mean Maria de Savoye did not marry in first wedding a " half cast"
but a French Huguenot responding to the name of Senaiman derived from Seugnet ???

7/18/2013 at 2:32 PM

C. SENAYMENT 's wedding in july 1689 do they say who is the bride ??

I seem to remember the SEUGNET sisters have their names listed on "The Wapen van Alkmaar" the ship that JEAN DURAND took in August 1688.

7/18/2013 at 11:22 PM

How do we know that Paul Roux was his 'voog' at his marriage?

Do you have a copy of the marriage entry?

7/18/2013 at 11:45 PM

I will be following this with great interest!
June Kotzee

7/19/2013 at 1:14 AM

According to C PAMA Christoffel was the son of Anthonie of Bengale and was christened on 9.3,1669. He was in partnership as a farmer with Ernst Friedrich Walters. He farmed at Sandvliet" at Drakenstein and died 1706. His father was a Free Burger. This is the only information I could find and would like to find out more about him. Greetings Maria

7/19/2013 at 2:16 AM

Dear Alexander,

Thinking of it I always thought it strange that a noble lady educated uptight
would marry the son of a slave. This is a very modern concept and feminist !
I doubt her father Jacques de Savoye of a name of importance would give his benediction.

7/19/2013 at 2:41 AM

This is very interesting. I will have to go down to the Archives on this one and obtain copies of the relevant documents. Alexander makes out a compelling case. But today it is raining and I am not going out.

Private User
7/19/2013 at 2:59 AM

Ek sprak g'n sprook about this great grandfather of mine now anymore. I am totally just going to follow this with great interest. Francois please go and have a look if you can.
Armenis it could also be that it was just the bad spelling of the time. This have to, as Jansi says, be a proper document of prove to change such a major SV.

7/19/2013 at 11:56 PM

I repeat my earlier query:

How do we know that Paul Roux was his 'voog' at his marriage?

Do you have a copy of the marriage entry?

7/20/2013 at 3:17 AM

@ Alexander Armenis

May I please have a copy?

7/20/2013 at 3:35 AM

Having read the various posts on this discussion I put the question to Richard Ball (whose research I admire enormously) and post here his response. Richard is not on GENi. Food for thought and perhaps some pointers on where to look, what needs to be seen etc.!

Start of quoted message.
===

Christoffel Snyman

The following for what its worth and I am happy for you to print or
circulate these comments of mine on what you quoted:

http://www.ballfamilyrecords.co.uk/lombard/I023.html

I have not investigated, but to some of your points I can answer as my
memory best serves me.

I think the original idea that CS was the son of Antonij van Bengale
and Cattrijn van Paliacatte (hope I have got the names right!) comes
from the fact that CS is named as their heir in that couple's will - I
don't know if he is named as a son or not - I don't have a copy of the
will.

Dr J Hoge - Bydraes tot die Genealogies van ou Afrikaanse Families
Balkema, 1958, page 129, states:

SNYMAN, Christoffle. Volgens MOOC 14/212 anno 1683 seun en 'universele
erfgenaam' van die vryburger Anthony van Bengale, wat in 1683 oorlede
is. Laasgenoemde is miskien identies met Anthony van Bengale wat met
sy vrou Catharina van Bengale in 1676 onder die ledemate van die
Kaapse Kerkgemeente en in 1682 (VC 39 p 62, waar sy vrou Catharina
van Paliacatte genoem word) met een kind onder die vryburgers vermeld
is.

(the MOOC 14 series are fragmentary estate papers - not included in
the main series indexed on NAAIRS). I think TEPC did a sort of excel
index but I cannot, myself, make head or tail of it).

---

The Hans Sneider (again I hope I have the name right) as father came
from Mansell Upham (a long and detailed article in Capensis) who
suggested that CS was the son of CvP (but not Antonij) and suggested a
baptism to be found in the NGK Cape town register, slave baptisms, as
appropriate. He found evidence that Hans Sneider was present at the
Cape at that time.

From FFY (I note the new great red outline copyright notice!):
In Hevigen Woede . . . Earliest recorded female bandiet at the Cape of Good Hope - A Study in Upward Mobility in Volumes 3/97 and 4/97 of Capensis

---

Identifying someone who marries and has children with a baptism or
birth (when there is no other evidence available is always chancy or
doubtful - there can be no certainty). This applies not only to Cape
Slave ancestry (where fathers are hardly ever named - at least in the
baptismal records) but to all ancestry, South African, English and
elsewhere - just because a child was born and baptised at a suitable
date is no guarantee in itself of identity. That is why we hope for
wills and estate files which may have more detail, and also examine
baptismal witnesses for clues.

---

As to Paul Roux. He, as I understand it, was the koster, or clerk of
the Drakestein congregation. The records that survive are apparently
his notebook, from which the register proper was presumably written
up. I have written a note about the circumstances here:

http://www.ballfamilyrecords.co.uk/notes/Drakenstein_registers.htm

and I have transcribed them here:

http://www.eggsa.org/sarecords/index.php/church-registers/drakenste...

If examined one will see that Paul Roux's spelling was by no means
fixed, varying even for French names and his spelling of Dutch names
is often quite odd. I would have said that Senayment (or variant) was
not a bad rendition in French terms of the sound Snijman.

C> Paul Roux was married to Claudine Seugnet from Saintonge. In
C> French Seugnet is pronounced Senaye or Senai.

Seugnet would today, I believe, be pronounced approximately sernyay
- how it would have been pronounced by the lady herself I have no
idea. Pronunciations have changed over time.

C> The earliest documentary evidence we have of Christoffel Snyman is
C> from the Drakenstein church registry. Here we find that his name
C> was spelt 'Senayement' by his 'voog', Paul Roux, during
C> Christoffel's wedding in July 1689.

Where is this marriage to be found? So far as I know there are no
Drakenstein marriages extant before 1717 - it is not in the Cape Town
registers that I can see - am I somehow mistaken?

In the church registers the earliest reference appears to be
Stellenbosch baptisms 1693 - Sniman

C> If Paul Roux was Christoffel's 'voog' then who was Christoffel's family?

What is this 'Voog' business - what does it mean - what is the
evidence for this?

I am unable to follow the above statement.

----

C> It stands to reason that a child who loses a parent onboard a ship
C> during a voyage or orphaned by misfortune ... is in most cases
C> taken-in by a female relative with ties to the biological mother or
C> father.

This is the purest speculation - at the Cape orphan or semi-orphan
children were usually farmed out by the Orphan Chamber and often to
totally unrelated people who were paid a monthly fee.

C> The name used by Paul Roux, paternal sponsor of Chrstoffel Snyman
C> and school master of the Huguenot community in Drakenstein, is the
C> earliest written reference available to us. A literate man, Paul
C> Roux wrote Senayement, why Senaye-ment?

What is the source for this statement - what is a paternal sponsor and
on what occasion was he such a thing?

C> The spelling of Christoffel's surname from the earliest documents are as follows:
C> - C. Senayement - His wedding on July 1689
C> - C. Senaymant - Daughter's baptism entry in Drakenstein registry on 22.07.1695
C> - C. Seniman - Daughter's baptism entry in Drakenstein registry on 01.08.1697
C> - C. Senaymant - Daughter's baptism entry in Drakenstein registry on 25.10.1699
C> - C. Senaiman - Son's baptism entry in Drakenstein registry on 24.07.1701
C> source: A.J. Kannemeyer ‘Hugenote Familieboek’, p.270-273

Where is the above marriage entry to be found?

baptisms:

In 1692 Stellenbosth Christofell Sniman
in 1694 Cape Town Crhijstoffel Snijman

Christoffel is, I believe, the Dutch form of that name - the French
form would be Christophe, I would say.

---------

C> Alexander -

C> The following source shows that Groot Catrijn had a son name
C> Christoffel:http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/e651.htm

C> Is there proof that the 'Christoffel' mentioned in the above
C> baptism entry refers to Christoffel Snyman? If there is hard
C> evidence that proves this then we can end the discussion and call
C> it a day.

No, even for the usual suspects, where father and mother were named,
there is seldom 'hard evidence' that the child baptised is the person
who married 20 or so years later - unless supplementary evidence can
be found in wills, etc as I noted above. For slaves there is hardly
ever any hard evidence - in this case I believe there is none.

I should imagine that Mansell Upham in his article mentioned above
would cite most of the possible sources, though he is usually focussed
on indicating slave origins. I do not have a copy of the article so
cannot check.

C> I am certain that the fist mention of Christoffel Snyman in any
C> tangible sense dates to his marriage entry in the Drakenstein
C> Church registry.

I would like the details, please.

----

C> The First Fifty Years project states that the same woman, namely
C> Angela van Bengale (Mooi Ansela), baptised both Christoffel Snyman
C> and Christoffel's 8th child, Susanna
C> Snyman.http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/g6/p6312.htm

I am not sure what the above means - does it mean she was a witness?
Since she wasn't a minister, how could she have baptised any children?

C> This is incorrect and is the only connection between Groot Catrijn
C> and Christoffel Snyman, albeit a false connection as these two
C> witnesses were in all likelihood not the same person.

Maybe, maybe not - who can say which is more likely - but see also
the will of Anthonie van Bengale mentioned above - I should think that
that was the earliest mention of CS.

C> Let me explain:

C> The witness in the baptism record for Groot Catrijn's son
C> Christoffel was named Angila. This Angila was Mooi Ansela
C> (*c.1630), the close friend of Groot Catrijn.

How can we be any surer of that than the other explanation?

C> On the other hand, we have Christoffel Snyman's daughter Susanna's
C> baptism record that mentions a witness named Ancelaar van Bengale
C> (A.J. Kannemeyer, 1940). This was Ansela Hanselaar (van Bengale)
C> (*c.1665), the wife of Lorenz Campher.

How can you be sure of that - a name is merely a name. The wife of
Laurens Campher was Ansela van de Caap.

http://www.ballfamilyrecords.co.uk/olivier/I641.html

C> This is evident as Susanna Snyman's husband, Jacob Kutzer, was a
C> widower, previously married to Cornelia Helm who was the
C> mother-in-law of Johanna Catharina Campher (*c.1707), the
C> grandaughter of Ansela Hanselaar van Bengale & Lorenz Campher.
C> Lorenz Campher served with Christoffel Snyman in the Stellenbosch
C> militia (c.1703-1705).

One can argue all sorts of things but without 'hard evidence' (to quote) which we do not have, it remains speculation.

I suggest that before continuing the discussion you all read Mansell
Upham's article which, whatever your opinion may be as to its
validity, will be well sourced and argued.

All the best,

Richard
--
Richard Ball
Norfolk, England
http://www.eggsa.org

End of quoted message.
====

Discuss!!!

7/20/2013 at 3:37 AM

Alexander - Hello Jansi, have a look in the Hugenote Familieboek by A.H. Kannemeyer (1940). If you want a copy let me know. Please could you put a copy linked to the profile?

7/20/2013 at 4:55 AM

Marguerite Thérèse de Savoye arrived in the Cape o/b "OOSTERLAND"
ship on 26 April 1688. She was born in actual Belgium in 1672. Meaning she was 16 upon arrival in the Cape. There are no Christophe Senaye on that ship or any of 7 other ships. We don't have the ZION passenger list.
These first 8 ships transported the HUGUENOTS families.

See www.olivetreegenealogy.com/ships/sahug01.shtml

7/20/2013 at 5:05 AM

Anyhow the ZION arrived in May 6th 1689 in the Cape.

Contributor : Lesley ROBERTSON " French speaker at the Cape "
M. BOUCHER 1981
(ISBN O-86981-222-X )

7/20/2013 at 6:16 AM

Having read Richard Ball's comments above, I repeat:

How do we know that Paul Roux was his 'voog' at his marriage?

Do we have a copy of this marriage entry or any other document stating this fact?

This is the crux of the matter.

Whatever Kannemeyer says is hearsay and can not to be relied upon.

7/20/2013 at 8:22 AM

I think that about sums it up Jansi.

7/20/2013 at 12:37 PM

It is a pity that we have lost Alexander's contributions which were interesting based on his departure points.
The complete discussion would have been much more valuable than just the remaining counter arguments

7/20/2013 at 1:39 PM

How come Alexander's post have gone?

I saved 3 of them -

Quote: Alexamder Armenis
This has been bothering me for a while and I would like to ask the managers of this profile to seriously consider the following for discussion.

The earliest documentary evidence we have of Christoffel Snyman is from the Drakenstein church registry. Here we find that his name was spelt 'Senayement' by his 'voog', Paul Roux, during Christoffel's wedding in July 1689.

If Paul Roux was Christoffel's 'voog' then who was Christoffel's family?

Paul Roux was married to Claudine Seugnet from Saintonge. In French Seugnet is pronounced Senaye or Senai. Is this mere coincidence of is there more to this than meets the eye?

The suffix 'ment' in French was used to express kinship for young male descendants and generally means 'of/from'.

It stands to reason that a child who loses a parent onboard a ship during a voyage or orphaned by misfortune ... is in most cases taken-in by a female relative with ties to the biological mother or father.

The name used by Paul Roux, paternal sponsor of Chrstoffel Snyman and school master of the Huguenot community in Drakenstein, is the earliest written reference available to us. A literate man, Paul Roux wrote Senayement, why Senaye-ment?

The spelling of Christoffel's surname from the earliest documents are as follows:
- C. Senayement - His wedding on July 1689
- C. Senaymant - Daughter's baptism entry in Drakenstein registry on 22.07.1695
- C. Seniman - Daughter's baptism entry in Drakenstein registry on 01.08.1697
- C. Senaymant - Daughter's baptism entry in Drakenstein registry on 25.10.1699
- C. Senaiman - Son's baptism entry in Drakenstein registry on 24.07.1701

source: A.J. Kannemeyer ‘Hugenote Familieboek’, p.270-273

Here are some early sources that contradict the current story we know:

1.) The Huguenot Society of London (p.207, Volume 5, 1898) mentions a family in South Africa named Senaymant.

2.) In the book 'De Afkomst der Boeren' by Dr. H.T. Colenbrander (1902) states that Christoffel Snijman was born in the Netherlands.

3.) The best source is from the Drakenstein Church archives and can be found in A.J. Kannemeyer's 'Hugenote Famieboek' (1940).

The following source shows that Groot Catrijn had a son name Christoffel:http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/e651.htm

Is there proof that the 'Christoffel' mentioned in the above baptism entry refers to Christoffel Snyman? If there is hard evidence that proves this then we can end the discussion and call it a day.

I am certain that the fist mention of Christoffel Snyman in any tangible sense dates to his marriage entry in the Drakenstein Church registry.

The First Fifty Years project states that the same woman, namely Angela van Bengale (Mooi Ansela), baptised both Christoffel Snyman and Christoffel's 8th child, Susanna Snyman.http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/g6/p6312.htm

This is incorrect and is the only connection between Groot Catrijn and Christoffel Snyman, albeit a false connection as these two witnesses were in all likelihood not the same person.

Let me explain:

The witness in the baptism record for Groot Catrijn's son Christoffel was named Angila. This Angila was Mooi Ansela (*c.1630), the close friend of Groot Catrijn.

On the other hand, we have Christoffel Snyman's daughter Susanna's baptism record that mentions a witness named Ancelaar van Bengale (A.J. Kannemeyer, 1940). This was Ansela Hanselaar (van Bengale) (*c.1665), the wife of Lorenz Campher.

This is evident as Susanna Snyman's husband, Jacob Kutzer, was a widower, previously married to Cornelia Helm who was the mother-in-law of Johanna Catharina Campher (*c.1707), the grandaughter of Ansela Hanselaar van Bengale & Lorenz Campher. Lorenz Campher served with Christoffel Snyman in the Stellenbosch militia (c.1703-1705).

7/21/2013 at 2:03 PM

What happened? Where are my posts? Thanks June, appreciate your help! The counter-argument is valid or so it seems. If there is no documented proof that Paul Roux was the 'voog' of Christoffel then the Seugnet =Senaye hypothesis has no basis. It would be helpful to find out where the Paul Roux 'voog' notion originated from. I'd appreciate it if those managers with research skills could let us know should they find some info on the subject. Thank-you!

Cuzzin Alex

7/22/2013 at 3:22 AM

What does VOOG mean exactly please ?

7/22/2013 at 7:10 AM

Barbara, a 'voog' is a legal guardian and in the case of an adult child could be called upon to sign as a parental figure on behalf of the groom/bride's family in the marriage registry.

7/23/2013 at 3:46 AM

Thank you ALEX !
I thought so but wanted to make sure.

7/25/2013 at 7:18 AM

I have been doing some more digging about Christoffel Snyman. According to Suid-Afrikaanse Geslagsregisters GISA p. 505 the following:
SNYMAN
Hans Christoffel (Christoph) Snijder (Schneider/Snijman) a. as soldaat v. Heidelberg, Rhynse-Palts, Duitsland voor 1665, na Robbeneiland verban, geen rekord gevind na 1668, het voorkind gehad by Catharina, vrygestelde kompanjieslavin, v. Paliacatta, provinsie Dravida, Indie (ook bekend as Groot Catrijn en Catharina v. Bengale) a. 21.2.1657 aan boord "Prins Willem", bej. ~Kaapstad 29.4.1668. Catharina x Kaapstad 20.12.1671 Anthonij v. Bengale (ook bekend as Anthonij v. Japan en Anthonij de Chinees) bej. ~ Kaapstad 12.9.1670 eerste "vryswarte" wat eiendom besit in Tafelvallei. Oorl. c. 1682. Met die uitsondering v. Christoffel, sterf die hele gesin in 'n tragedie tussen Des 1682 en Feb. 1683.

CHISTOFFEL SNYMAN ~ Kaapstad 9.3.1669. Oorl. c. 1706, stamvader v.d. Snymans in Suid-Afrika (sien Hoge se bydraes p. 129), boer "Sandvliet", Groot Drakenstein x c. 1689 Marguerite-Therese DE SAVOYE *c. 1671 a. 1688 saam met ouers as Hugenote-vlugtelinge uit Aeth, Vlaandere, aan boord "Oosterlandt" oorl. c. 1735 d.v. Jacques de Savoye en Marie Madeleine le Clercq v. Doornik (sy xx Henning Viljoen) Erkenning: Mansell Upham - "In Hevigen Woede..." Capensis Sept. 1997 en Nov. 1997
Maria

7/26/2013 at 11:45 PM

Thank you Maria This proves Christoffel was the only survivor and therefore had a VOOG he was 13 years old when family died. 1682-1669.

7/27/2013 at 2:38 AM

I haven't had time to go to the archives since this debate began, but from Maria's input it seems as if there were two CS's, one who was involved with Groot Catrijn and the other who married De Savoy, and that the latter is then the SV/PROG of the Snymans?

Private User
7/27/2013 at 6:51 AM

Thank you Maria as well. That is how I also have it. Frans as jy kans kry kyk tog. This is my direct oupa on Marnewick side.

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