William the Conqueror, King of England - Hunting William the Conqueror's DNA

Started by Justin Swanström on Monday, July 22, 2013

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Private User
7/31/2013 at 4:53 PM

Yes, but you could check the Ware line as I linked the Ware Family Association in Samuel Ware's profile for your easier perusal. It helps to confirm what is known.

7/31/2013 at 5:17 PM

Dale, I'll take a look at your questions later. I did some looking this morning, but then work and committee meetings interrupted the flow of genealogy. I hope to get back to it, if not tonight, then within a few days.

7/31/2013 at 5:43 PM

Erica, I did, and it does. DCR Thanks Justin! ;- )

Private User
7/31/2013 at 7:22 PM

Erica remember I am the one who still can't URL. I get so far and then nothing. When I took several computer courses many many years ago , I did know how to cut and paste but then never got to use it as I was laid off and never found an office job again.
By now even if I could remember it , it would all be obsolete!

yesterday at 11:39 AM

Let us Refresh the Debate over William ap Rhys/Rice 1521 alleged son of a King, and a Laundress: The Laundress in question is Beatrice (likely GARDINER) ap Rice married to David or Daffid ap Rhys/Rice ca1475. Beatrice would have been too old to attrack the attention of the king joining the house hold of Princess Mary Tudor 1520 the year prior ending in March 1519....fyi. See the Calandar of Pope GREGORY.

Beatrice continued in her position as Supervisor of the Laundry of the King Henry Tudor as well as Princess Mary Tudor for the years 1520-1558 until Queen Mary Dies. The Highest Office her husband David achieves starting as a Groom 1520 age 45 is Wine Sewar.....The Children if any are not mentioned in the Ladies of the Tudor Court: There is however a woman listed as the daughter of the David ap Rice one Jonnet ap Rhys/Jenkens grand daughter of Jonnet Matthews who was a Paramour of Sir Rhys ap Thomas = Daffid ap Rhys the Groom to Sewar in the household of Princess Mary....Jonnet would have been age 20 or 22 years old when BEATRICE and she likeley went to the Field of Cloth of Gold in FRANCE. The Children she bore to her husband include the right names but wrong FAMILY of David ap Rice and Elizabeth Bateman which are the parents of John Rice II of Rickerson.....This is a conflation of two famileis with close ties to the court and is an intentional clouding of the story of the Birth of William ap Rice born 1521-22 after the field of cloth of Gold.....
Further: Barbara Fuller Rice is named as a groomswoman to Queen Mary 1553-1557 prior to Mary's demise....Her husband is William ap Rice the storied Boy born to Princess Mary's househould 1521. They are amply rewarded with Mannors in at least 3 locations and This William is granted a coat of ARMS May 2, 1555 with a Pomegranite upon it, in due course by the Queen. the Manors for good service include Backnoe in Turleigh, a manor at Medmenham, Buckinghamshire. This person allegedly dies without an heir but leaves the Manor at Medmenhamshire to a relative also named William RICE, who is likely Married to Elizabeth Bateman and then to Thomasine Minn Myall with children born 1555 and 1558 known in History as Henry Thomas Rice and Thomas Henry Rice respectively both brothers marry one Margaret BAKER....who is divorce by Henry T. for having a child not her husbands at the time....The child is reported among the Rice sites as EDMUND RICE 1594 a 1/2 Cousin via William Rice 1521 to the BATEMAN-John Rice II and Thomas Rice/ Margaret Mercer line that my Perrott Figure is descended from via Katrin Perrott..... AND THIS IS WHY IM confused....ANYONE? DCR 1948

yesterday at 11:58 AM

Two different Rice families -- or, at best, very distant cousins.

Not likely the Beatrice Gardiner, who seemingly had access at Court and belonged to one of England's prominent families was a laundress. What is your source for this Beatrice being in charge of the laundry?

Are you saying that Margaret Baker was allowed a divorce by Henry VIII? I'd want to see some very strong evidence of that. Old Henry thought divorce was good for himself, but he was notoriously stubborn about other people divorcing. Look into the story of Anne Askew if you want to see what Henry thought about divorce for his subjects. If Margaret Baker was unfaithful to one husband, and if the king cared, she'd have likely ended up dead, not remarried ;)

yesterday at 1:39 PM

Margaret Baker ca 1594 50 years after Henry...this is Elizabethan england...and the Family swap tells me the Thomas H. Rice is likely complicit with the pregnancy....just a guess however. DCR I can see that it's two different family's so can see how the conflation can occur....Im now thinking the William Rice & Barbara Fuller Rice could be the one granted the Coat of ARMS and we have to look for the son or nephew who inherited at this point....fyi DCR 1948

yesterday at 1:42 PM

The BEATRICE FIGURE is a cousin of Sir Rhys ap Thomas no doubt....Im ofcourse guessing its the grandaughter of Jasper and Helens Daughter by Sir Rhys Main Knight, Wm. GARDINER...I would like to see that dataof her hanging around court ca 1578 or 1580 when she was born...thus it'snot Henry's court...but Mary or Elizabeth's....as an esteemed family member in charge of the Kings and Princess Mary Lavandary Service it's not like the local washer woman you know....DCR

yesterday at 1:50 PM

Source: Women of the T'udor Courts: Beatrice joined the House hold of Princess mary Tudor 1519 if not David Rice we have a Beatrice the right age to attract the Kings attention and she has the Children of her husband one of which is Jonnet same as DAVID mother Jonnett Mathews whom I referenced way above....and wondered about the kinship....in any event we have a MISSING TUDOR PRINCE to Find and telling me he's not here is not going to cut it...He is here, we have to understand it.....If you can see through the tangle as you represent then what is Jonnet mathews relatedness to DAVID or DAFFID? Beatrice at 25 to 30 could be married to DAVID age 45 to 50....yes?

yesterday at 3:09 PM

Dale. I think conflated is the right word. Confused would be another. So far, it looks to me like these are different families. Genealogists have grabbed one, then grabbed another, then come up with idea that they must be the same family even though there's no evidence. Not every William Rice is related to every other William Rice.

If you think there's a missing Tudor prince to be found, then you've already misjudged the way to research a question like this. A missing prince might emerge from the evidence, but not from smashing all the families together into a single family and insisting that he's one of them.

If you're looking for a Tudor prince? What's wrong with John Perrot? He fits the bill. He's probably related to the family of Perrott Rice. The only problem is that his mother was a baroness, not a laundress.

Another thing to remember when you look at something is that these people were not just modern people dressed in funny clothes. Their society was very different from ours, and they were extraordinarily more class conscious. You see great nobles with grand titles like Chief Butler and Earl Marshall, and imagine that ever butler was some kind of noble. Not so.

The laundresses at Greenwich Palace were peasant women, who had to work for a pittance. To the extent that they had a chief, he or she would have been under the supervision of a many times sub steward. There was no great and honorable post as Great Supervisor of the King's Laundry, occupied by a genteel woman. No, not at all. Even if there had been, it would have been a man's post, not a woman's. And, that man would have been so far down the totem pole that he never would have been able to marry into the gentry.

When Henry VIII's father wanted to humiliate the pretender Perkin Warbeck, he put him to work in the scullery. Even if the poor had been royal, that effectively put an end to any aspirations. Not just because he was defeated and captured, but because it placed him so far down the social scale the he could never get back up.

You're looking for the laundress' family among the gentry. That is never going to work. As the Paston Letters make clear, a manorial family would never tolerate a daughter marrying out of her class, not even to a prosperous steward. The Paston daughter who defied them was cut off from her family and her inheritance. She was, quite simply, dead to them.

It's not beyond reason that Henry VIII had a night of passion with a laundress, although more likely 10 minutes. Maybe the laundress went to her grave swearing it was the king's son, but given the sluttish reputation of laundresses, it's unlikely anyone but her mother would have believed her. And, you can bet that if she noised that around the palace, she would have been whipped and fired for spreading such lies. No manors or royal preferments for her son, no secret deals, or doting royal half sisters.

yesterday at 5:29 PM

Well Justin: Sir John Perrott son of Berkley/Thomas Perrott is but one element to this story. And to give short Shrift to Beatrice ap Rhys wife of Daffid son of Jonnet MAthews is a hardly the slut you describe.....She did the kings Laundry or supervised it more likely for 38 years and 18 of those she was connected to HENRY TUDOR's household as well.....You say it doesn't matter, I say it does....My asking you about the family of the Mathews which seek out and find John Rice's son in Ma. is worth noting....hardly a meaningless act. Why did such a family merge with Samuel RICE & the WARES? they are descendents of the Mathews of Jonnet and Daffid....fyi. You did not respond to the querry....Im, confused by the complexity not the story....It's all well and good for you to be dismissive but I bring this up to put the light of day on this topic, not to burry it in your doubt......REALLY, the Families involved gave Willaim ap Rhys 1521 special treatment....and I think i know why, but the shadow of doubt should not be the obscuring factor to seeing if there be truth in the story.....YES we have two family's with similar names and different stations in life....That's how we know the story is plausable.....the station looked to be too great a gulf to bridge.....All true....yet here we are all we RICE's in AMERICA with the FACES of our NOBLE ANCESTORS which say does not matter and I say it does and so does John RICE's Y chromosomal match to the Wm. Owen Tudor figure.....It's not perfect but it's close enough to examine. I want to understand if it's possible and it seems to me you want to dismiss it.....Those are two very different motives and I clearly have the motivation to see it to the conclusion even if you're not willing to examine it.....William ap Rice 1521 links to the EDMUND RICE STory and the Perrott ap RICE Story.... perhaps as a cousin or better yet the King's son......There's a couple of ways this can be turned into meaningful data....and the Wares of Con. who connect to Jonnet Mathews is an idicator....why not look at them? Who is John Rice and his son SAMUEL that they of all people would seek them out? Please see: Elizibeth Rice /WARE married to SAMUEL RICE son of John 1624.....Her family that she married into IS Robert WARE SR. to June WARE to SIR wm WADE MP to ALICE WADE to GRACE Patton to John BASKERVILLE to Jane BASKERVILLE to ALICE WADE to SIR DAFFID ap Matthew and Jonnet Matthew ETC. This could finally be the link that proves that Perrott and John RICE 1624 are intwined....My knowledge base is not what yours is....so if you don't want to look then My conclusions will be without bennifit your input. DCR 1948

yesterday at 8:24 PM

Dale,

Here's the deal. You are looking for a secret Tudor prince who has a connection to the Rice family.

You don't like John Perrot because he wasn't a Rice. You thought it might be Perrot ap Rice, but that didn't pan out, so now you're looking at other Rice families. Now you're on to William Rice 1521.

What you're not seeing is one very basic fact -- you're not going to find a laundress married to a gentleman, with a royal child. Alice Martin wasn't a laundress. She was heiress of a manor. Beatrice Gardiner wasn't a laundress. She was the king's cousin. In Tudor times you'd have been whipped for spreading a slander that a woman of their class was a laundress.

These aren't two different Rice families with two different stations in life. They were two different Rice families with the same station in life. One family had court connections, the other apparently didn't, but they were both gentry.

If your family story requires a laundress, then you are looking for a man surnamed Rice whose mother is hidden from history. If her name is known at all, then she has no background. Her parents are unknown. They weren't gentry. They did not have even a single manor. They had no connections at court. They had no land at all, unless perhaps they were cottars with an acre or two.

I think you are missing one very key element to society at this period -- parents simply did not let their children marry out of their class, and they certainly didn't let them marry anyone who could not support a family.

You are thinking of modern corporate execs who can marry a stripper, with only giggling in the background. A medieval man didn't have that luxury. Status was about not having to work for a living. It was about deriving an income from rents and offices, however humble.

A wife had to bring money or lands appropriate to her family's status, or she wasn't worth the bargain. A husband had to have an estate sufficient that a father could feel his daughter would be cared for, materially at least.

Yes, there are famous examples of royal wives who were the daughters or widows of simple knights -- Katherine Swynford, Elizabeth Woodville, Jane Seymour -- but notice that they nevertheless were at least from knightly families. And, there are hundreds of cases of gentlemen who were willing to marry the daughters of rich tradesmen to get the money -- but notice that those girls had to have money.

Marriage was a business transaction. Without money, there was no point. And, it was not so harsh at it seems to us. In a world where aristocrats lived on inherited capital, you had to marry other people with inherited capital. If you truly cared about your children and wanted them to have successful lives, you had to see that they were properly established.

No gentleman was going to marry a laundress (or a stripper), and no woman of a gentle family was likely to fall so low as to become a laundress. And, if she did, no man was going to redeem her. Why would he? She would have no money. Moreover, medieval people thought that children's character was formed in their mother's womb. Marry a laundress, and your children would be ne'er do wells.

So, in my opinion, you can stick to the laundress story, or you look for a connection somewhere among the gentry. You can't do both.

yesterday at 10:37 PM

Great explaination: AND that's exactly what I mean by being mislead by names and palces in the RICE community....there were a lot of em....The Laundress is exactly the sort of low level romp that paid off big for the BEATRICE FIGURE....and from that figure...that I must conclude is not Jasper's GRANDaughter exactly for the reasons you cited....So this figure, inherits Manor's from Queen Mary and so does William 1521 and the Barbara Fuller RICE who becomes the Queens attendant....The only possible reason is the relationship her Husband William has with Mary Tudor....I fully expect now, after sorting through the possibilities that His Church affiliation and Catholic Connections get him thrown in Jail.. by QE I ...This is now sounding more promising.....We still don't know who BEATRICE is but she must have been born around 1495 to 1502 or 03 in order to draw the King's attention. Im content that the family who sought out John RICE in AMERICA the Jonnet MAthews must have some part....but I can't be sure unless there is a Beatrice Matthews or connecting family as the WARES come to AMERICA Looking for Elizabeth RICE....So the question is why and do they have a William WARE or WADE that Beatrice & David leave their mannors to. As I said early on, I think it was a bargain struck to keep the Child Quiet and that supported Mary Tudor.....I have read that the Coat of ARMS and the Manor House were specifically for the purpose of helping Mary Tudor durning the Assencion Crisis.....I Thank you....It seems Perrot may carry the genetic Material via Mary BERKLEY that could link back to the story but we don't know yet, whether Katrin Perrott is a grandaughter or niece to sir John Perrott....Kris Stewart was pointing at some discrepancy in dob's but Sir John's Son by Cheney is also a John Perrott and Katrin may be his daughter....That seems plausable and likely. DCR 1948

yesterday at 10:57 PM

Barbara Fuller/Rice and William ap Rice 1521 are allegeded to have no surviving children and hense leave their Manorhouse at Medmehamshire to another nephew named William.....We have William ap Rice the ONONION a brother to Thomas ap Rhys 1570 who is listed Wrongly as a female, and the site acknowledged the ERROR. Meaning that the Missing Tudor PRINCE story evaporates wtih the DEATH of William 1521 and his widow Barbara Fuller Rice disposes of the Tudor Manors left to she and William by Mary after William dies....We have that date as 1588, July. I will seek the names of the WARE and Mathews lines and Williams born to them about 1580 that the SILENT PRINCE endows.....He's dead and gone and burried leaving the story as you say in the Lineage of Perrott via Kathrine Perrott nee Rice to evolve into the story I received.....I can handle that.....DCR 1948

yesterday at 11:06 PM

This must be the STory LINE!!! The Tudor Prince is kept silent, and dies without an Heir....but leaves a manor house to a cousin or Nephew, the ONONION? William ap Rice 1580 of the Bateman's and that inturn leaves the Story given to PERROTT and his children the story of being related to every Monarch in Europe....via Katherine Perrot Rice....not the LOST TUDOR PRINCE but his cousin. I can believe in that outcome. Big ole cirlcle of people and places....though not as high flyin as the ORIGIONAL it's still one heck of a TALE.....I'll see what I can find of the Medmenhamshire Manor ca 1555 to 1580....DCR 1948

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