Patrick Udny, of that Ilk - Finnish patronymicon removed

Started by Pontus Kyander on Monday, July 22, 2013

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7/29/2013 at 10:26 PM

Justin Swanström
Do you know of "The Thanage of Fermartyn" by Rev Willima Temple, 1894?
http://archive.org/stream/thanageoffermart00byutemp#page/n9/mode/2up
It is the quoted source for many of the Udny profiles here on Geni, i've been reading it this afternoon and i think that i may be able to glean some more details for the profiles we have. Also there are a lot of family members listed that are not currently shown on Geni and a few shown on Geni that don't match the book.
Sadly no mention of the Swedish connection (at least not yet).

7/29/2013 at 10:40 PM

I've seen if before. I've never used it and don't have an opinion on it. I know lots of interesting trivia about Scottish history and genealogy, but it's hardly ever anything useful ;)

7/29/2013 at 11:46 PM

Well it seems to marry up with the Sherriffs records that i was reading yesterday, i'm adding missing younger sons and daughters as well as filling in About Me sections and narrowing down birth/death dates and locations.

I'm not even a little bit Scottish!

7/30/2013 at 12:13 AM

William Udny of that Ilk is later known as Willian Udny in Auchloun, after he sells off the family estates.
So now you know of an example where the family changes from OF to IN.
:)

7/30/2013 at 1:57 AM

I have the impression that a lot of things are falling into place. Alex, please update where you can, and if you care adding sources and a link to this discussion when relevant, I think you will have made a great contribution here.
I am learning a lot from this... including trivia and important knowledge on Scottish genealogy.

7/30/2013 at 5:54 PM

I've pushed the estimated birth date of Robert Udny of Auchterellon as far as i am willing to (c.1617).
His eldest child is J Udny born 1688 and the youngest is Alexander Udny born in 1712.
Neither the children nor the wife are sourced, so we have Robert starting a family when he is 71 years old and his youngest being born 4 years after he dies.
I don't know where Roberts death date of January 1708 comes from. Perhaps there is a generation missing (ie Robert has a son named Robert, who then has these children starting in 1688)?

7/30/2013 at 9:05 PM

Transcript of the law suit(?) heard in the House of Lords where George Udny laid claim to the Udny title based on the fact that his cousin's son (John Henry Udny of Udny, Newburgh and Dudwick the current land holder) was born a bastard.

http://www.uniset.ca/other/css/LR1ScDiv441.html

Private User
7/31/2013 at 12:07 AM

lol can ya feel the love and family bonding? :)

7/31/2013 at 12:07 AM

James Udny has too many children on Geni compared to my source.
There is no evidence for the younger Alexander nor the last son George.

7/31/2013 at 12:13 AM

Private User
It would have made the Christmas luncheon very awkward that year.

7/31/2013 at 6:39 PM

Pontus Kyander
I've found another book that mentions Peter.
Unfortunately it confuses things more!

"In 1634 Peter Udny, styled of Auchterellon, went to Sweden, was a corporal in the noble Standard Corps, had recognition of nobility in 1647 ; his descendants are extinct."

http://archive.org/stream/genealogist00mars#page/34/mode/1up

The first mmention of Auchterellon in the Udny history is from 10/5/1615, Alexander Udny of Auchterellon and Hillbrae (born 1566) "who had already acquired the lands of Auchterellon, and Hillbrae." Alexander died sometime after 1637 having no children (ie: "d.s.p."), so assuming this is true Peter cannot be descendant from Alexander.
BUT the same source contradicts itself saying:
"This Robert Clerk of Tilliecorthie married Jane Udny, daughter of the said Rev. Alexander Udny, and had issue, ...". So who knows?

Now the next branch of the family to take up the title "of Auchterellon" is Alexander's nephew, Robert Udny of Auchterellon (born c.1617). There's no way this Robert could be the father of Peter who was in 1634, only 17 years after Robert's birth.

7/31/2013 at 7:40 PM

Clarification:

William Udny of that Ilk (Alexander's father) sells Auchloun in 1613 to John Seton of Auquhorties. Alexander must have bought it back from John Seton between 1613 and 1615.
I've actually found a mention of "his land of Auchloun" (presumably the same place) in a charter from 1511 which is referring to lands belonging to Ranald Udny of that Ilk.

7/31/2013 at 8:10 PM

I'm going to make Jane Udny a daughter for William Udny of that Ilk (the brother of Alexander). I have realised that there is no statement in either book that William did not have children. The estates and titles ended up with his brothers because of Williams bad management which doesn't mean that his line neccessarily died out. Where as both books specifically state that Alexander had no children (even if one contradicts itself).

So I will make Jane WIlliam's daughter based on George Marshall (1878) in The Genealogist states:

"IX. William Udny of that Ilk acquired the fee of the estate by resignation, executed by his father 27 May 1606, and in 1615 entered on the first of a series of complicated transactions with his brothers and William Seyton. He married Helen Cheyne, who was in all probability daughter of Cheyne of Esslemont, not far from Udny, and had : —

Jean Udny of Hillbrae, who married Mr. James Clerk of Tilliecorthie, and had issue.
"

http://archive.org/stream/genealogist00mars#page/35/mode/1up

7/31/2013 at 8:14 PM

Actually this makes sense of a statement in the other source regarding Alexander's death:

"... and d.s.p., when his niece inherited Hillbrae."

Which explains why Jane has the name "Udny of Hillbrae" as she would be the niece referenced here.

Private User
7/31/2013 at 11:01 PM

William is the only brother of Alexander who d.s.p.?

7/31/2013 at 11:41 PM

No, there are four brothers

i William (one source is silent regarding children, the other lists Ann as his only daughter)

ii Robert - both sources say dsp

iii Alexander - both sources say dsp (though as per above one source contradicts itself)

iv John - who gets very rich and has lots of kids (none named Ann/Anne though)

7/31/2013 at 11:46 PM

I'm fairly certain that the George Ednie built the Udny family on Geni using George Marshall's "The Genealogist" from 1878.
"The Thanage of Fermartyn" by Rev William Temple in 1894 directly quotes large sections of Marshall's book (or else both books are plagarising from an earlier source) but does differ on some points.
Margaret Udny is a good example of the contradictions:
In the older document she is born 1734 and marries NN Ross.
In the later document her birthdate is unknown, spouses name is Alexander Ross (okay so far) but then their son John is listed as dying in 1892! Even if John lived to 100 years that still makes no sense.

Private User
7/31/2013 at 11:47 PM

First source had Jean daughter of William, m James Clerk. You're not seeing anything to question it so it seems reasonable. Build on.

8/1/2013 at 12:04 AM

Nah, i'm leaving Jane alone.

8/2/2013 at 12:44 AM

Ironically, after yesterday's statement that i would leave Jane alone, I spent over an hour today (jeez is Geni slow today!) moving another Jane Udny from the "of Tillery" branch to the "of that Ilk" branch after she had been wrongly identified as the daughter of her own brother. I also managed to find her husband and his family already on Geni so merged them in and that made the dates all look a bit more sensible. :)

8/4/2013 at 7:44 PM

There is another source that would be interesting to see but doesn't seem available online:
"Udny of that ilk", Robert Riddle Stodart (1877).

http://openlibrary.org/works/OL5296073W/Udny_of_that_ilk

Private User
8/4/2013 at 11:44 PM

Alex, have a look at this talking about the same perambulation of Udny and Tarves.
http://www.ebooksread.com/authors-eng/william-temple/the-thanage-of...
I. Sir David de Winton de Andoch.

He is found as a witness to a charter of a piece of ground called " Le Haulch," in
the ecclesiastical lands of Methlic, dated 1365. In it he is called of Andoch. In 1415,
David Wynton Dominus de Andoch takes part in a perambulation between the lands of
Tarves and Udny." He is said to have received the honour of knighthood. Sir David
de Wynton married, and had issue, three sons : —

Private User
8/5/2013 at 12:13 AM

from http://archive.org/stream/thanageoffermart00byutemp#page/426/mode/2up

III. Patrick de Uldeny.

He is mentioned in an instrument regarding the perambulation between the lands of Tarves and Uldeny, of date 1457. The proprietor of Udny at this date, was William de Uldeny. The deed refers to a perambulation that had taken place at a former period, in the time of his predecessor Patrick de Udny.

8/5/2013 at 12:33 AM

I've noticed that the scanned version of "Thanage..."on archive.org is missing pages occassionally, the Full Text version seems to have all the pages.

I'll have a look on Wednesday, Ian. Tomorrow has been declared an Udny free day :)

8/5/2013 at 12:34 AM

There's a tree match showing up for Helen Taylor, could one of you PRO or Curator types check it out for me please.

Private User
8/5/2013 at 12:42 AM
Private User
8/5/2013 at 12:45 AM

Alex only thing says David Winton was perambulation in 1415, and Patrick de Uldeny's perambulation 1457,

8/5/2013 at 7:07 PM

I had to google it.

Perambulation: In traditional English law, it is used specifically to mean "determining the bounds of a legal area by walking around it", meaning physically walking around the region in question.

8/5/2013 at 7:13 PM

Actually Ian, you need to be careful because Patrick de Udny was dead before 1457.
What the deed states is that William Udny was laird of Udny in 1457 when there was a perambulation and that a perambulation had taken placed during the time of his predecessor Patrick Udny (date unspecified).

Private User
8/5/2013 at 8:20 PM

I googled it as well. So Perambulation is just like ancient surveyors? Just thought I would bring this to your attention because I noticed the Perambulations were so close together. Seems this property must have gone through quite a few owners or divided up into sections within a small period of time.

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