King David / דוד המלך . - King David and fictional names as son's

Started by William Owen "Bill" Irwin on Thursday, July 25, 2013

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7/25/2013 at 1:41 PM

Bertha Neumueller 15th cousin five times removed asked a question I do not have a answer for.

"Hi Bill, My Pastor asked about the fictional names when I showed him the entire list.....how do they affect the lineage in the tree ? Is anything after the 1800 questionable ?"

William Owen "Bill" Irwin » Bertha Neumueller: Dear William, Bertha Neumueller is King David's 85th great granddaughter. View the full relationship path: http://www.geni.com/c/b992c1dff5316bcdbfbe0b3616364f2a88d9b9ff Here is the only problem his son → Matthat ben Levi his son → Enygeus / Anna (Fictional) his daughter → Josué, 3rd Grail Keeper (Fictional) her son → Aminadab, Grail King (Fictional) his son → Catheloys, Grail King (Fictional) his son → Manael, Grail King (Fictional) his son → Titurel, Grail King (Fictional) his son → Boaz - Anfortas (Fictional) his son → King Pharamond (Fictional) his son → Chlodio I "le Chevelu", King of the Franks his son Sun at 8:26 PM

7/25/2013 at 2:58 PM

Private User
Bertha Neumueller

7/25/2013 at 4:52 PM

I don't know about the fictional names, nor do I want to cause offense, but realistically, I don't think there's any way to prove that we're related to anyone who lived 3,000 years ago.

I don't know if you're familiar with Biblical Israelism that holds that King Zedekiah's daughter was wisked away, and taken to the British Isles around the time of the Israel's captivity in Babylon. This was very popular in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, and is the root of this idea that the US is mentioned in Bible prophecy. Anyway, it was from this theory that the idea of the British royal family being direct descendents of the Kings of Israel comes.

Another thing to keep in mind is that if you have Mormon ancestors [as I do], they need to be able to trace their lineage back to Israel to prove that they are truly the restored church on earth. I'm [supposed] related to King David through Solomon, Absolom, Nathan and possibly one other son. While I find the whole thing interesting, I take it with a grain of salt.

Here's an article on British Israelism:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Israelism

7/25/2013 at 6:14 PM

You're right, Jean.

There have been many attempts over the centuries to link European families to Biblical lines. They started with the very earliest converts to Christianity in western Europe, and continue all the way down to the books like Holy Blood, Holy Grail today.

As Jean points out, the driving force behind these theories is religion, not history. Some people want very much to be descended from King David or from the family of Jesus, but in most cases the proof just isn't there.

There is a semi-organized effort on Geni to identify the profiles of fictional people and to label them in the name fields so that users can see clearly if their genealogies are running through lines that modern scholars believe to be fake.

If ask Geni to look at your descent from King David (or any other ancient figure) and you see a profile that has (Fictional) in the name, then you know that there is no proof you are descended from anyone before that.

Bill, in the example you gave, you cannot trust any of the generations before Chlodio le Cheveleu.

Private User
7/25/2013 at 9:45 PM

I also will take the information on the lineage before Chlodio le Cheveleu with a grain of salt....it does prove to be very interesting, but as I said before I think all christians can trace their lineage back to Christ...

7/25/2013 at 9:47 PM

That should be British Israelism, not Biblical Israelism........

7/25/2013 at 10:00 PM

Jean, British Israelism is a fascinating topic. One set of my great grandparents were WW Church of God, so very convinced of it. So much so that many of my relatives on that side now think that they're Jewish. I read everything I can find, hoping to understand, but it's never enough.

7/26/2013 at 12:26 AM

William Owen "Bill" Irwin, to put some focus on what Justin said,
1) the Biblical Lines themselves are as solid as possible, per Biblical sources.
2) the later "modern times" lines are as accurate as typical genealogy work is, i.e. as much as is known.

3) It is the LINK between these two periods /trees, that is considered Fictional.

4) Some people would argue the Biblical tree is also fictional, but if anything it should be categorized "Mythical", and there is no real need to mark them as such, as they already [mostly] marked as belonging to the Bible Tree project.

7/26/2013 at 6:22 AM

Justin, I know ALL about the WWCG!! That's where I came across this doctrine...........

7/26/2013 at 8:10 AM

I noticed that King David was my 91st great grandfather whereas God Almighty was only my 77th "great grandfather." Something doesn't add up even with Mormon theology.

7/26/2013 at 1:30 PM

Berta, Thank You so much for bring this up, I enjoyed this tutorial and it gives me more to work on.

Jean, I was unfamiliar with British_Israelism. I also agree the further back we go the more blanks and questions we will have

Shmuel-Aharon Kam, your perspective give me new insight, and helps my understanding of the difference between Biblical and Modern lines.

Justin, as you mentioned in the Ancestors of Charlemagne; I have fictional paths and blood line paths. The difference is quite striking.

I am new to genealogy and GENi yet have always considered myself a student of history. Again Thank You All.

Private User
7/26/2013 at 7:15 PM

I join Bill in my thanks. I learn quite a bit from these discussions - and adding a "fict" label as the scholars can validate helps me on Geni.

7/27/2013 at 12:16 PM

According to Geni, King David is my second great uncle's great grandfather (by marriage) - or, my great grandfather's sister's husband's mother's father's father.

I do recognize the names that are listed.

The newest member of "the royal family!"

7/27/2013 at 12:31 PM

Elise, that's very strange that you're only 5 generations away from someone who lived over 2,500 years ago............You might want to contact Geni about the links as I've had some where people who are my gggggparents parents were shown as not being related to me when I'm a descendent of their child........

7/27/2013 at 1:07 PM

You are so right, Jean. It does sound very odd that it's only 5 generations.

When I look closer at the information I have from a family genealogical book, there is a gap of 600+ years, that Geni did not acknowledge!

Do I lose my royalty status?

7/27/2013 at 1:17 PM

Elise, if you're of English, Scotish or Welsh descent, changes are you're related to half the royal families of the last 1,000 years! Don't dispair of being of nobility. Now all you have to do is get your family to call you
M' Lady.

7/27/2013 at 1:53 PM

Oh well M'Lady, ,I guess I'm just a Ms. I can't even get my family in New Jersey to call me!!

Private User
7/28/2013 at 7:34 AM

@"King David/King David and fictional names" is my 91 grt grandfather Judy Rice

7/29/2013 at 3:23 PM

Well, some people in Churches are a little judgemental, so if you have problems about faith, just drop the fact you were born into the church and the bible is telling your family story. :)

7/29/2013 at 10:48 PM

INTERESTING YOU BRING UP wwcg I USED TO BE A MEMEMBER.tHEY ARE NOW CALLED gRACE COMMUNION AND HAVE SINCE QUIT TEACHING THAT DOCTRINE.. bUT THERE ARE GROUPS N THAT BROKE OFF THEM THAT STILL TEACH THAT. i AM NO LONGER A MEMBER OF THE CHURCH!
kING DAVID IS REPORTED TO BE MY 84 gRAND FATHER i NOT SHOWING fICTIONAL ON MINE!

7/29/2013 at 11:22 PM

King David

My path is 80 and also no Fictional

8/6/2013 at 10:00 PM

He's listed as my 83rd Gr Grandfather, with no "Fictional" label.
.
Excuse my ignorance, but this leads me to ask the questions, what gauge is used to decide who is "fictional" and who isn't? And WHO decides it? Is it a factor of consensus? Or something else?

By the way, I greatly appreciated the discussion. I never knew that about British Israelism. I already knew blood line going back that far was questionable at best, just never knew why. So thanks for the info! ancestry going back that far...

8/6/2013 at 10:31 PM

That's a fantastic question, Evelyn.

I don't think we have an organized system. In theory, anyone could label a profile as Fictional. In practice, I think it's most commonly applied by curators and maybe a few others who are experts in the area.

I can't tell you what standard anyone else uses, but I can tell you what I do. To me, there's a big difference between whether a profile is really Fictional and whether there is a doubt about the connection. I save Fictional for the really extreme cases. A person who comes from a poem or novel or the medieval equivalent (a "romance"). A person who is first mentioned in the 1950s but supposedly lived 1000 years years and supposedly just happened to get written down. That sort of thing.

Most of us would probably never add those profiles, and if we discovered they were fictional, we'd probably delete them. But there are some people on Geni who are very attached to them. Leaving them here and labeling them as fictional is a compromise. It lets some users keep fantasy ancestors but alerts the rest of us not to take them seriously.

The label has to stand up to repeated scrutiny. If I said a certain person was fictional and someone came up with a contemporary source, say within a hundred years, I'd change my mind real fast!

So, I'd invite all Geni users to use the same skeptical approach to the Fictional label that we use for everything else that isn't documented. And, if anyone knows of good documentation for a profile that's labeled as Fictional, let a curator know right away.

8/7/2013 at 6:24 AM

Thank you Justin! The explanation helps.

8/8/2013 at 1:23 PM

@ Evelyn Alexander , King David is my 90th Great Grandfather with out fictional names as well ! from King David up back to me come through some of my Choctaw side (of my father ) !!! I am Cheryl McLain Dowd .

8/8/2013 at 2:29 PM

King David / דוד המלך . is your 83rd great grandfather.
You
→ Linda Sue Cox
your mother → Gladys "Pat" May (Kelley/adopted-Payne) m. Lockwood/Tyler
her mother → Vivian Lucille Kelley/Payne/Smith (Cromer)
her mother → Floyd Cromer
her father → Elizabeth Ann Cromer (Grosvenor)
his mother → Araminta Margaret Grosvenor (Whitney) Houser
her mother → Francis Tufts Whitney
her father → Joseph Whitney
his father → Benjamin Whitney (1725-1797)
his father → John Whitney 1680- 1739
his father → Benjamin Whitney
his father → Elinor (Ellen) Whitney
his mother → Thomas Bray
her father → Sir John Bray
his father → Beatrice Bray (Shirley)
his mother → Sir Richard Sherley of Wiston
her father → Ralph Shirley of Staunton Harold
his father → Elizabeth Blount
his mother → Sir Thomas Blount, Kt.
her father → Sancha Blount, Lady de Ayala
his mother → D. Inés Alfonso de Ayala, señora de Malpica
her mother → D. Fernán Pérez, IX señor de Ayala
her father → Sancha Fernández Barroso
his mother → Mencia Garcia de Sotomayor
her mother → Garci Méndez (Meléndez) de Sotomayor, conquistador de Córdoba
her father → Pedro Méndez de Sotomayor y Ambía
his father → Men Pais Sored de Sotomayor, I señor de Sotomayor
his father → Payo Mendez Sorrez
his father → Garcia Sorrez
his father → Sancho Sorrez
his father → Sorred Fernández de Saavedra
his father → Ylduara / Aldara Arias
his mother → Ylduara Lúcida
her mother → Arceriunda
her mother → Sévériano de Cartagena, Conde de Cartagena
her father → Aviena
his mother → Rufius Gennadius Avienus
her father → Rufus Viventius Gallus
his father → Anastasia
his mother → Rufius Postumianus
her father → Postumius Rufius
his father → Petronia
his mother → Anicia
her mother → Sextus Anicius Faustus Paulinianus
her father → Asinia Juliana Nicomacha
his mother → Gaius Asinius Nicomachus Julianus
her father → Gaius Asinius Quadratus Protimus
his father → Julia Quadratilla
his mother → Aulus Julius
her father → Julia Quadratilla Bassa
his mother → Julia Iotapa
her mother → Alexander, King of Cilicia
her father → Tigranes VI, King of Armenia
his father → Alexander II of Judaea
his father → Alexander, Prince of Judaea
his father → Mariamne I Hasmonean / מרים החשמונאית
his mother → Alexandra II / אלכסנדרה החשמונאית Hasmonean
her mother → Hyrcanus II / הורקנוס השני, High Priest & King
her father → Queen Salome Alexandra / המלכה שלומציון אלכסנדרה Reina Judea
his mother → Rabbi Setah Ben Yossei / רבי שטח בר יוסיי
her father → Rabbi Yossei ben Yohanan / רבי יוסיי בר יוחנן
his father → Rabbi Yohanan / רבי יוחנן
his father → Joazar ben Zeredah
his father → Zeredah ben Antigone
his father → Antigone Soko ben Simeon
his father → Simeon I Saddiq ben Elias
his father → Elias ben Tobit, Governor of Judea 365-360 BCE
his father → Tobit ben Hananiah (twin)
his father → Hananiah
his father → Hattush
his father → Hashubah / חשבה .
his father → Zerubbabel / זרובבל בן שאלתיאל
his father → Shealtiel / שאלתיאל
his father → Jechoniah / Yehoakhin / יהויכין / יכניה בו יהויקים
his father → Jehoiakim/ Yehoahaz / יהויקים King of Judah / מלך יהודה
his father → Josiah / Josias / יאשיהו King of Judah / מלך יהודה
his father → Jedidah / ידידה .
his mother → Jehosheba / יהושבע .
her mother → Jehoram / יהורם בן יהושפט
her father → Jehosaphat / יהושפט מלך יהודה
his father → Asa / Asaph / אסא בן אביה
his father → Maachah / מעכה
his mother → Tamar / תמר .
her mother → Absalom / אבשלום .
her father → King David / דוד המלך .
his father

9/9/2013 at 11:58 AM

Król Dawid / דוד המלך. Twój 92-sza pradziadek.
Ty
→ Gertruda Wielewska (Baczyńska)
twoja matka → Marianna Baczyńska (Kozieł)
matka → Wiktoria Kozieł (Drzewicka)
matka → Mateusz Drzewicki
jej ojciec → Antonina Małgorzata Drzewicka (Ryndwelska)
jego matka → Marianna (Zielińska)
matka → Helena Zielińska (Węgierska)
matka → Barbara Węgierska (von Heydebreck)
matka → Catharina Lucretia von Heydebreck (von der Goltz)
matka → David Ludwig von der Goltz
jej ojciec → Catharina von der Goltz (von Kleist)
jego matka → Jakob von Kleist auf Dolgen und Klingbeck
jej ojciec → Peter von Kleist
jego ojciec → Anna von Kleist (von der Osten)
jego matka → Ewald von der Osten
jej ojciec → Dinnies der weisse Ritter von der Osten
ojca → Heinrich d. J. von der Osten
jego ojciec → Johann von der Osten
jego ojciec → Heindrich von der Osten
jego ojciec → Arnd von der Osten-Sacken
jego ojciec → Friedrich von der Osten gen. Sacken
ojca → Friedrich von der Osten gen. Sacken
ojca → Hermann von der Osten gen. Sacken
ojca → Margarethe von der Osten-Sacken (von Schwerin)
jego matka → Geonzel I, hrabiego Schwerin-Wittenbourg
jej ojciec → Konrad I, Graf von Hagen-Münzenberg
jego ojciec → Gertrud von Arnsberg-Werl
jego matka → Mathilde von Bilstein
matka → Eberhard (Erpho) von Bilstein
jej ojciec → Wigger II, Graf von der Germaramark
jego ojciec → NN von Sachsen
jego matka → Otto I, książę Saksonii
jej ojciec → Liudolf I "Wielki", Herzog von Sachsen
jego ojciec → Bruno III Von Wettinów, książę Saksonii
jego ojciec → Hsalda Saksonii
jego matka → Aude z Austrazji
jej matka → Charles "Martel", Prince of Franków
ojciec → Pepin II d'Héristal, burmistrz Pałacu Austrazji
ojca → Ansigisel de Metz, burmistrz Pałacu Austrazji
ojca → Dode / Clotilde de Metz
jego matka → Arnoaldus, biskup Metz
jej ojciec → Ansbertus / Ausbert de Moselle
jego ojciec → Duke Ferreolus de Rodez
jego ojciec → Tonantius Ferreolus, III
ojciec → Papianilla Avita
jego matka → Syn Adelphius lub Hermogenianus usuwania z Limoges
ojca → [Adelphius lub Hermogenianus]
ojciec → Anicia Faltonia Proba
jego matka → Turrania Anicia Juliana
matka → Anicius Auchenius Bassus
ojca → Amnius Manius Caesonius Nichomachus Anicius Paulin
ojca → Amnius Anicius Julianus
ojca → Sekstus Anicius Faustus Paulinianus
ojca → Asinia Juliana Nicomacha
jego matka → Gaius Asinius Nikomachus Julianus
ojca → Gaius Asinius Quadratus Protimus
jego ojciec → Julia Quadratilla
jego matka → Aulus Juliusz
jej ojciec → Julia Quadratilla Bassa
jego matka → Julia Iotapa
matka → Alexander, król Cylicji
jej ojciec → Tigranes VI, król Armenii
ojca → Alexander II Judei
jego ojciec → Alexander, Prince of Judei
jego ojciec → Mariamne I Hasmonean / מרים החשמונאית
jego matka → Alexander II / אלכסנדר השני החשמונאי Machabeusz Hasmonean, High Priest
jej ojciec → Aristobalbus II, król Judei / אריסטובלוס השני
jego ojciec → Królowa Salome Alexandra / המלכה שלומציון אלכסנדרה I Reina Judea (Shatach)
jego matka → Rabbi Setah Ben Yossei / רבי שטח בר יוסיי
jej ojciec → Rabbi Yossei ben Yohanan / רבי יוסיי בר יוחנן
jego ojciec → Rabbi Yohanan / רבי יוחנן
jego ojciec → Joazar ben Zeredah
jego ojciec → Zeredah ben Antygona
jego ojciec → Antygona Soko ben Simeon
jego ojciec → Simeon I Saddiq ben Elias
jego ojciec → Elias ben Tobiasza, gubernator Judei 365-360 pne
jego ojciec → Tobiasz ben Ananiasz (bliźniak)
jego ojciec → Chananiasza
ojca → Chattusz
ojca → Hashubah / חשבה.
ojciec → Zorobabel, 3. Exilarch / זרובבל
jego ojciec → Szealtiela, 2. Exilarch / שאלתיאל
jego ojciec → Jechoniah / Yehoakhin / יהויכין / יכניה בו יהויקים (król Judy / מלך יהודה)
jego ojciec → Jehojakim / Yehoahaz / יהויקים król Judy / מלך יהודה
jego ojciec → Josiah / Josias / יאשיהו król Judy / מלך יהודה
jego ojciec → Jedidah / ידידה.
jego matka → Jehosheba / יהושבע.
jej matka → Joram / ​​יהורם król Judy / מלך יהודה
jej ​​ojciec → Jehosaphat / יהושפט król Judy / מלך יהודה
jego ojciec → Asy, króla Judy / אסא מלך יהודה
jego ojciec → Abiasz / אביה król Judy / מלך יהודה
jego ojciec → Rehoboam / רחבעם król Judy / מלך יהודה
jego ojciec → King Solomon / שלמה המלך
jego ojciec → Król Dawid / דוד המלך.
ojciec

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