King David / דוד המלך . - King David and fictional names as son's

Started by William Owen "Bill" Irwin on Thursday, July 25, 2013

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7/25/2013 at 1:41 PM

Bertha Neumueller 15th cousin five times removed asked a question I do not have a answer for.

"Hi Bill, My Pastor asked about the fictional names when I showed him the entire list.....how do they affect the lineage in the tree ? Is anything after the 1800 questionable ?"

William Owen "Bill" Irwin » Bertha Neumueller: Dear William, Bertha Neumueller is King David's 85th great granddaughter. View the full relationship path: http://www.geni.com/c/b992c1dff5316bcdbfbe0b3616364f2a88d9b9ff Here is the only problem his son → Matthat ben Levi his son → Enygeus / Anna (Fictional) his daughter → Josué, 3rd Grail Keeper (Fictional) her son → Aminadab, Grail King (Fictional) his son → Catheloys, Grail King (Fictional) his son → Manael, Grail King (Fictional) his son → Titurel, Grail King (Fictional) his son → Boaz - Anfortas (Fictional) his son → King Pharamond (Fictional) his son → Chlodio I "le Chevelu", King of the Franks his son Sun at 8:26 PM

7/25/2013 at 2:58 PM

Private User
Bertha Neumueller

7/25/2013 at 4:52 PM

I don't know about the fictional names, nor do I want to cause offense, but realistically, I don't think there's any way to prove that we're related to anyone who lived 3,000 years ago.

I don't know if you're familiar with Biblical Israelism that holds that King Zedekiah's daughter was wisked away, and taken to the British Isles around the time of the Israel's captivity in Babylon. This was very popular in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, and is the root of this idea that the US is mentioned in Bible prophecy. Anyway, it was from this theory that the idea of the British royal family being direct descendents of the Kings of Israel comes.

Another thing to keep in mind is that if you have Mormon ancestors [as I do], they need to be able to trace their lineage back to Israel to prove that they are truly the restored church on earth. I'm [supposed] related to King David through Solomon, Absolom, Nathan and possibly one other son. While I find the whole thing interesting, I take it with a grain of salt.

Here's an article on British Israelism:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Israelism

7/25/2013 at 6:14 PM

You're right, Jean.

There have been many attempts over the centuries to link European families to Biblical lines. They started with the very earliest converts to Christianity in western Europe, and continue all the way down to the books like Holy Blood, Holy Grail today.

As Jean points out, the driving force behind these theories is religion, not history. Some people want very much to be descended from King David or from the family of Jesus, but in most cases the proof just isn't there.

There is a semi-organized effort on Geni to identify the profiles of fictional people and to label them in the name fields so that users can see clearly if their genealogies are running through lines that modern scholars believe to be fake.

If ask Geni to look at your descent from King David (or any other ancient figure) and you see a profile that has (Fictional) in the name, then you know that there is no proof you are descended from anyone before that.

Bill, in the example you gave, you cannot trust any of the generations before Chlodio le Cheveleu.

Private User
7/25/2013 at 9:45 PM

I also will take the information on the lineage before Chlodio le Cheveleu with a grain of salt....it does prove to be very interesting, but as I said before I think all christians can trace their lineage back to Christ...

7/25/2013 at 9:47 PM

That should be British Israelism, not Biblical Israelism........

7/25/2013 at 10:00 PM

Jean, British Israelism is a fascinating topic. One set of my great grandparents were WW Church of God, so very convinced of it. So much so that many of my relatives on that side now think that they're Jewish. I read everything I can find, hoping to understand, but it's never enough.

7/26/2013 at 12:26 AM

William Owen "Bill" Irwin, to put some focus on what Justin said,
1) the Biblical Lines themselves are as solid as possible, per Biblical sources.
2) the later "modern times" lines are as accurate as typical genealogy work is, i.e. as much as is known.

3) It is the LINK between these two periods /trees, that is considered Fictional.

4) Some people would argue the Biblical tree is also fictional, but if anything it should be categorized "Mythical", and there is no real need to mark them as such, as they already [mostly] marked as belonging to the Bible Tree project.

7/26/2013 at 6:22 AM

Justin, I know ALL about the WWCG!! That's where I came across this doctrine...........

7/26/2013 at 8:10 AM

I noticed that King David was my 91st great grandfather whereas God Almighty was only my 77th "great grandfather." Something doesn't add up even with Mormon theology.

7/26/2013 at 1:30 PM

Berta, Thank You so much for bring this up, I enjoyed this tutorial and it gives me more to work on.

Jean, I was unfamiliar with British_Israelism. I also agree the further back we go the more blanks and questions we will have

Shmuel-Aharon Kam, your perspective give me new insight, and helps my understanding of the difference between Biblical and Modern lines.

Justin, as you mentioned in the Ancestors of Charlemagne; I have fictional paths and blood line paths. The difference is quite striking.

I am new to genealogy and GENi yet have always considered myself a student of history. Again Thank You All.

Private User
7/26/2013 at 7:15 PM

I join Bill in my thanks. I learn quite a bit from these discussions - and adding a "fict" label as the scholars can validate helps me on Geni.

7/27/2013 at 12:16 PM

According to Geni, King David is my second great uncle's great grandfather (by marriage) - or, my great grandfather's sister's husband's mother's father's father.

I do recognize the names that are listed.

The newest member of "the royal family!"

7/27/2013 at 12:31 PM

Elise, that's very strange that you're only 5 generations away from someone who lived over 2,500 years ago............You might want to contact Geni about the links as I've had some where people who are my gggggparents parents were shown as not being related to me when I'm a descendent of their child........

7/27/2013 at 1:07 PM

You are so right, Jean. It does sound very odd that it's only 5 generations.

When I look closer at the information I have from a family genealogical book, there is a gap of 600+ years, that Geni did not acknowledge!

Do I lose my royalty status?

7/27/2013 at 1:17 PM

Elise, if you're of English, Scotish or Welsh descent, changes are you're related to half the royal families of the last 1,000 years! Don't dispair of being of nobility. Now all you have to do is get your family to call you
M' Lady.

7/27/2013 at 1:53 PM

Oh well M'Lady, ,I guess I'm just a Ms. I can't even get my family in New Jersey to call me!!

7/28/2013 at 7:34 AM

@"King David/King David and fictional names" is my 91 grt grandfather Judy Rice

7/29/2013 at 3:23 PM

Well, some people in Churches are a little judgemental, so if you have problems about faith, just drop the fact you were born into the church and the bible is telling your family story. :)

7/29/2013 at 10:48 PM

INTERESTING YOU BRING UP wwcg I USED TO BE A MEMEMBER.tHEY ARE NOW CALLED gRACE COMMUNION AND HAVE SINCE QUIT TEACHING THAT DOCTRINE.. bUT THERE ARE GROUPS N THAT BROKE OFF THEM THAT STILL TEACH THAT. i AM NO LONGER A MEMBER OF THE CHURCH!
kING DAVID IS REPORTED TO BE MY 84 gRAND FATHER i NOT SHOWING fICTIONAL ON MINE!

7/29/2013 at 11:22 PM

King David / דוד המלך .

My path is 80 and also no Fictional

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