Maternal lineage Progenitors

Started by Piet Retief Venter on Wednesday, May 7, 2014


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5/7/2014 at 1:15 AM

Would maternal lineage progenitors be included in this Project? By this I mean your mother's, mother's ... (+ 'x' generations of ancestral mothers) mother, back to the first ancestral mother who arrived in this country. She would be your mtDNA ancestral mother - the one from whom you inherit your mtDNA; the person who is the 'first in line', at the 'top' of the R-H side of your pedigree chart. In my case she was Engeltje Cornelisse vd Bout, a Rotterdam orphan girl, who was brought to the Cape by the VOC as a bride for one of the colonists (Bartholomeus Koopman) in 1688. (She was born in 1670 in Rotterdam, of unknown parents). I have traced my maternal lineage back to her, and have written an article on this matter (in conjunction with Prof. Thea de Wet of UJ), which article was published in FAMILIA 48 (4) 2011, pp. 171-176.
I would be interested to find out how many of our participants have done a similar study to find out who their maternal lineage progenitors were.
Are there other descendants of Engeltje vd Bout among our participants in this Project?

5/7/2014 at 2:11 AM

Yes, Piet - the female PROG is the oldest mother of the family to arrive - so that definitely includes all the oldest MtDNA mother ancestors to get off the boat.

Great story for poor little Engeltje - Post her profile link so we can check if we're related.

PS Do you think we should start a project to list all the MtDNA mother PROGS that have been 'proved' by DNA testing so far?

Private User
5/7/2014 at 9:29 AM

I like it! Will put it on my thinking list!!

5/8/2014 at 2:00 AM
is tailor made for this .
If we have a profile for Engeltje Cornelisse vd Bout we can determine all her living descendants who are on Geni

5/8/2014 at 2:08 AM

Subject of course to privacy restrictions.
Why one would have private profiles of deceased persons continues to boggle my mind.

Private User
5/8/2014 at 2:08 AM

Yes - an amazing tool!

5/8/2014 at 2:47 AM
Private User
5/8/2014 at 2:53 AM

Engeltje Cornelisz van der Bout, SM/PROG is my 8th great grandmother.

Not on a maternal line unfortunately...

5/8/2014 at 6:05 AM

Yes, she's my 9th ggranny - but also not straight MTDNA.

Peter's correct - Jeff made that modification especially to accommodate a South African MtDNA search request. It's made for this kind of project.

5/8/2014 at 6:37 AM Busy creating the project - come and join, and help add text and profiles.

5/8/2014 at 9:08 AM

Piet, I used the History Link Graph of Jeff's to find you 3 other Geni users who should share your mtDNA: Stephany Celliers (Erasmus), Magda Pretorius &
Jacques Steyn

5/8/2014 at 12:38 PM

Piet Retief Venter, can you give us her haplogroup?

5/8/2014 at 2:22 PM

I'm glad you guys find this interesting! My mtDNA haplogroup (and the haplo of Thea de Wet) is U5a1a. We 'inherited' this, via our different maternal lineages, from Engeltje vd Bout. We also did 'paper trail genealogy', back to Engeltje. (Our joint effort is called 'triangulation'). My maternal lineage, back to Engeltje is: Gerria Gey van Pittius (my mother) > Gerria vd Walt (her mother) > Hester Cornelia Venter (her mother) > Martha Jacoba Maria Kruger (her mother) > Anna Catharina Jacomina van Aswegen (her mother) > Martha Maria Griezel (her mother) > Anna Maria Jacoba Pelser (her mother) > Engela Catharina Zaaijman (her mother) > Anna Maria Coopman (her mother) > Engeltje Cornelisse vd Bout (her mother). Thea de Wet's lineage, back to Engeltje is different, of course. [The lineages diverged because Thea is descended from Catharina Coopman, a sister of Anna Maria]. Only recently I discovered that Anna Maria Coopman married Pieter Zaaijman, the grandson of Eva Krotoa and Pieter Havgard (Meerhoff). The Krotoa line is not the direct line via which I inherited my mtDNA haplotype. If it was, I would have had an 'African' mtDNA haplotype. U5a1a is 'European'.

5/9/2014 at 1:33 AM

@Sharon Doubell. Hi Sharon - I see that I haven't responded to your initial reply yet. What do you mean when you say that I should post Engeltje's profile link? Do you mean that I should show in my family tree how I am descended from her? I suppose I can do that, but then I will have to undo the present faulty lineage back to Jacomina Carteniers (instead of to Engeltje) here on Geni. [A wrong connection along my maternal lineage was made a few years ago by someone who helped me, and thereafter there were mergers by other Geni users with my family tree - this included mergers with this incorrect lineage. If I should replace the incorrect lineage with the correct one, what would happen to the mergers?]. Referring to your 'PS' - I think it's a good idea, but how many people know what their mtDNA haplogroup is? Paper trail genealogy, following the maternal lineages, could achieve the results we would be looking for, and we won't have to be relying on the results of mtDNA tests. The results of mtDNA tests serve as a handy tool to confirm the correctness of paper trail genealogy - i.e. if X and Y's mtDNA results match, they should have a common female ancestor. If you can confirm this with paper trail genealogy you would be doubly sure that you have arrived at the correct result.

5/9/2014 at 1:42 AM

Hi piet. No, I meant - post it here on this discussion so we could all quickly open it, but Peter did that for you.

If your family tree has incorrect merged in lineages we MUSt fix it - if your tree is wrong, then OUR tree is wrong :-)

Send me the stuff, and I'll help.

Private User
5/9/2014 at 3:01 AM
5/9/2014 at 11:47 AM

The line that Piet describes in his post is exactly Geni's line. I had no trouble following it down as Piet describes it. Only a private profile at Martha Jacoba Maria Kruger .

5/9/2014 at 12:23 PM

Accirding to Geni Piet is also related to her through a peternal line
Engeltje Cornelisz van der Bout, SM/PROG
→ Anna Maria Zaaijman, a3b4
her → Engela Catharina Zaayman, a1b1c5
her daughter → Willem Jacobus Pelser, b2c6
her son → Willem Jacobus Pelser, b2c6d3
his son → Martha Jacoba Maria Pelser, b2c6d3e4
his daughter → M. Kruger
her daughter → Hester Cornelia Venter
her daughter → Gerria Van der Walt
her daughter → G. Gey van Pittius
her daughter → P. Venter
her son

5/10/2014 at 2:03 AM

Hi everybody! Sharon, I had a longish discussion with Peter last night. In the end I managed to upload my correct maternal line, back to Engeltje vd Bout, on my Geni Family Tree. I am still considering whether I should edit the 'incorrect' line, back to Jacomina Carteniers, but, in view of what Peter wrote directly above this, maybe I should hang on a bit. Maybe there are two or more lines, and, depending on what path you take (also via males), you end up with a different 'stammoeder', who is also genuinely in your pedigree chart. Something is not completely correct, though, and I have to find out what it is, so that I can correct it.

5/10/2014 at 10:24 AM

Thanks Piet - Peter is such a great help, isn't he?
I'm not sure that I'm following you though. You will have many many Progenitor grannies, but only one Stammoeder (married to the Venter SV/PROG), and only one mtDNA Progenitor granny (the first one on your mother's mother's mother line to enter the country.)
It isn't a huge problem to have an error on your tree, but very useful to untangle if it affects lots of people, and Geni is a great place to do that.

5/11/2014 at 2:05 AM

Thanks for your help, Sharon! Thanks, also, to Peter. I want to delete the incorrect postings back to Jacomina Carteniers, but I don't see them on my Geni Family Tree anymore. Could this be as a result of all the mergers that have taken place? In fact, I can't even access all of the family tree that I have posted on my page. To me it feels as though my page doesn't 'belong' to me anymore! Could you or Peter come and help me on my computer here at home? I would like to meet you - after all, Sharon, you are my 'Cuzzin'! :-) . I would like to treat you at the Ocean Basket or the Spur!

5/11/2014 at 2:43 AM

Piet, if you or Dennis are anywhere near van Staadens in PE, then you must come and toast the sunset with me on my beach shack deck, cuzzin.

Send me the links to the profiles you're worried about in a private message. That way I can figure out the problem with you, cuzz.

5/11/2014 at 4:12 AM

Piet, you should still be able to see all the profiles that you have uploaded as you are manager of all of them. your settings possibly exclude those that are not direct ancestors from your view.
But as Sharon says tell us who you are worried about and we may be able to fix them.

5/12/2014 at 3:03 AM

Hi Sharon and Peter! Sharon, I thought you were still living in Jo'burg, but now you are living in the area where our ancestors lived! I'll take you up on your invite - but I don't know when! About your offer to help me: I am mostly concerned about being able to access my paternal lineage, back to the Venter Stamvader. My lineage is: Piet R. Venter (me) > Piet R. Venter, Snr. (my dad) > Jan Adriaan Venter (my grandfather) > Jan A. Venter, Snr. (my great grandfather) > Petrus J. Venter (his father) > Johannes Hendricus Venter (his father) > Petrus Venter (his father) > Pieter Venter (his father) > Hendrik Venter (SV/PROG). I can't access this lineage; neither can I access the maternal lineage that I uploaded a few days ago. What should I do? Pl. help! Warmest regards, dear cuzz!

5/12/2014 at 3:58 AM

Piet, I'm completely puzzled. As Peter says - you are a manager on all of those profiles, so I'm wracking my brain to think what might be preventing you seeing them:

This is each profile on that paternal line - Tell me if you can click on all of them and view them?

Piet Retief Venter

Piet Retief Venter

Jan Adriaan Venter

Jan Adriaan Venter

Petrus Johannes Venter, b5c2d8e1

Johannes Hendricus Venter, b5c2d8

Petrus Venter, b5c2

Pieter Venter, b5

Hendrik Venter, SV/PROG

5/12/2014 at 5:37 AM

Sharon, I now see that I can access all of these profiles when I click on the names. I have even managed to follow the line in the family tree, back to Hendrik Venter, SV/Prog. So, maybe I have been too impatient - there are loooong lines to the left and right now. I am still worried that I can't find the postings that I did a few days ago - from my mother, Gerria Gey van Pittius, back to Engeltje vd Bout. [I will try again!]. Did you know that Engeltje's daughter, Anna Maria Koopman, married Pieter Zaayman, son of Pieternella Meerhoff (vd Kaap), and grandson of Eva Krotoa? [Have you read Dalene Matthee's book]. I am descended from Anna Maria Koopman and Pieter Zaayman, through the maternal lineage. I believe that you also have a connection here? And the two of us are also descended from Petrus Venter and Martha du Plessis, i.e. we are 'double cuzzins'? I would like to send you my HistoryLink printout.

5/12/2014 at 6:10 AM

Piet, You will not find your "own "postings as they have been merged into the "big" tree , even you private line of 2009. This is what the merges were all about. There are still a few private profiles that you need to make public.

5/13/2014 at 1:37 AM

Thanks, Peter - I understand it now. And, as you say, the word is 'merges' :-) (I used the incorrect term 'mergers', but that refers to 'company mergers'!). I will check to see which profiles I still need to make public.

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