Richard Richard Richard de Camville

Started by Private User on Sunday, July 20, 2014


  • Private User
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Private User
7/20/2014 at 11:57 AM

The 1130 Pipe Roll records "Ric de Capvilla" in Oxfordshire[1812].

The Red Book of the Exchequer refers to "Ricardo de Campville viii m" in Hampshire in [1158/59].

The Red Book of the Exchequer refers to "Ricardus de Campville in perdono per breve Regis" in Warwickshire [and/or] Leicestershire in [1161/62].

Is this one person, two, three, maybe four? And how do we find out?

The Oxfordshire Camville family is the one that acquired and then lost the manor of Stanton - there are believed to have been as many as three consecutive Richards in that family. One of them, either the first or second, donated “terciam partem decimarum...apud Hottoth” to Jumièges, for the souls of “uxoris mee Adelicie et sequentis uxoris mee Milesente...Rogeri fratris mei”, by charter dated [5 Apr 1170/27 Mar 1171], subscribed by “Ricardi filii mei...” (who should have been of age by that time, although minors were occasionally permitted to witness charters).

The Warwickshire Richard de Camville would be the one who founded Coombe Abbey in 1150, with a son and heir Gerard (or Gerald) and a brother Hugh.

I haven't a guess about Hampshire or Leicestershire.

And there's another record for a Richard de Camville in Northamptonshire, and one in Berkshire....

Like, just how many of these guys WERE there?

Private User
7/20/2014 at 4:10 PM

The inconsistencies between the known data surrounding the Oxfordshire and Warwickshire Camvilles are sufficient to create suspicion that two different branches are involved.

Gerald/Gerard de Camville, who was the oldest of four brothers and married Nicolaa de Haye, pretty definitely belongs to the Warwickshire branch and looks like the oldest son of the founder of Coombe Abbey.

The three(?) Richard Camvilles of Oxfordshire would then be cousins of the Warwickshire family, not members of it. This would resolve the difficulties in dating and birth order that result when trying to fit them all together.

Private User
7/23/2014 at 7:48 AM

The current setup includes two brothers:

Guillaume de Camville
Gautier, Sire de Canville

It is also possible they are father and son, with Gautier being of the "Conquest generation". "Gautier de Can(ou)ville" is found on the Dives roll as having something material to do with William's success - either by participating, or by substantially supporting from the sidelines.

Then there are these four characters:

Richard "Puignant" (Domesday Book 1086)
Robert Puignant (Domesday Book 1086)
William de Camville (Domesday Book 1086, subtenant of Richard Puignant, no last name given)
Walter de Camville (reference to witnessing a charter in the late 11th century, need to find)

The brothers "Puignant" (assumed to be Camvilles because their holdings match known Camville holdings of a generation or so later) probably weren't at Hastings, but probably had a lot to do with securing the country for William afterward. The by-name means "fighter".

I have Gerald de Camville, I who married a De Vere as the son of Richard "Puignant", which is negotiable as long as he remains in a senior line. This line produces at least two and probably three consecutive Richards, ending with Isabel de Camville who married Robert d'Harcourt and brought the manor of Stanton into the Harcourt family.

In the junior line I have put Sir Richard de Camville of Warwickshire, his brother Hugh de Camville, and Richard's four sons Gerard de Camville, castellan of Lincoln Castle, Richard de Camville, Walter de Camville, and William de ARROW de Camville, and daughter Matilda de Camville (extant charters confirm these relationships).

This reconstruction is partly conjectural, based on the difficulty of fitting Richard-as-son-and-heir into a family where the son and heir was explicitly Gerald.

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