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2 Rabbis called Maharam Ash and both are also Meir Ash

Started by Shulem Jeremias - שלום יערמיאש on Sunday, December 27, 2009

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12/27/2009 at 6:51 PM

There are 2 Rabbis called Maharam Ash and both are also Meir Ash:
@ Meir Eisenstadt - the Ponim Meiros (1670 - 1744)
@ Meir Eisenstadt - the Maharam Ash (1780-1852)

They have an almost identical secular surname too!

The first Rabbi Meir Ash (1670-1744) is never called nowadays "Maharam Ash"; he is called by historians and by his descendants (like Reb Iser Zalman Meltzer) the Ponim Me'iros after his Sefer Shu"t Ponim Me'iros. He was born in Lithuania and became Rabbi of Eisenshtadt; a very Choshiva Rabonis in those days.

The second Rabbi Meir Ash (1780-1852), was one of the early talmidim of the Chasam Sofer, and his greatest talmid in Mattersdorf. The Chasam Sofer considered him a Talmid Chover (a talmid like a friend). He was born in Shusberg and grew up in Eisenshtadt; hence the name Eisenshtadt. He is known nowadays to historians and to his descendants as the Maharam Ash.

12/27/2009 at 6:53 PM

Sorry the second Rav is called @ Meir Eisenstaedter

12/27/2009 at 7:02 PM

According to the Jewish Encyclopedia (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=101&letter=E#312), he was born on June 6, 1744

12/27/2009 at 7:15 PM

Shalom How do I join this discusson?? Sincerely Alan

12/27/2009 at 7:17 PM

Could be that one is a descendant (great-grandson?) of the other, and, especially if he was born in the same year as the first one was nifter, it makes sense he should get his name!

12/27/2009 at 11:24 PM

I have access to at least one of the several profiles of the Ponim Meiros.

According to that profile <http://www.geni.com/profile/index/6000000001272897094#/tab/overview&gt;, managed by Yisroel Moshe Kramer, the Ponim Meiros died on June 7th, 1744. I am collaborating with Yisroel Moshe Kramer.

I also added your original comments onto that profile.

There is another profile of the Ponim Meiros, managed by Elisha Koppel. I am NOT collaborating with Elisha Koppel. That profile <http://www.geni.com/family-tree/index/6000000002008554189&gt;, also lists his date of death as June 7, 1744.

12/28/2009 at 12:17 AM

I also merged, or requested to be merged, a number of family members' profiles of the Ponim Meiros.

12/28/2009 at 7:56 AM

The Maharm As"h of Ungvar had a son Rabbi Menachem As"h who succeded him in Ungvar.

12/28/2009 at 8:13 AM

The Panim Meiros also authored a sfer Ohr Hagonuz http://www.hebrewbooks.org/9258

The Sefer was first published by his son Rabbi Yehuda of Biyala (Is he in th tree?) and later reprinted bu his descendant Rabbi Simcha Binyamion of Dubvno, who wrote a very detailed Yichus which can be a big help for the tree info
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=9258&amp;st=&amp;pgnum=8

The date of the Panim Meiros passing is written very clear as 27 Sivan 5504 which is equivelant to June 7 1744

Private User
12/28/2009 at 6:11 PM

you could make some inquieries by Rabbi Ehrenreich the "maader" Rov he might be able to help you he lives on 54 Str bet. 16 & 17 Avenue

12/30/2009 at 11:01 AM

@ Meir Eisenstaedter

12/31/2009 at 4:00 PM

@Meir Eisenstaedter
There were 2 people with the name Maharam Ash, the one that married the daghter of Harav Dovid Deutsch cannot be the auther of the ponim meeros since his lifetime was earlier then R' Dovid Deutsch's. Information from different sites show that it was the other one who was a son in law by R' Dovid Deutcsh (this one was the auther of the Imrei Eish).

Meir Eisenstaedter
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You may be looking for Rabbi Meir Eisenstadt; also known as Meir Ash, and also called Maharam Ash.
Rabbi Meir Eisenstaedter (1780-1852) - or Meir Ash - known as the Maharam Ash (Hebrew for "Our Teacher, the Rabbi, Meir of Eisenstadt") was one of the greatest Talmudists of the nineteenth century. He is best known as author of "Imre Esh" (Words of Fire) - the collection of his responsa published by his son in 1864. He studied under "the Chatam Sofer", Rabbi Moses Sofer, in Mattersdorf, and was Rabbi of Ungvar; Rabbi Shlomo Ganzfried, author of the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch served as Dayan during this time. Maharam Ash also served as Rabbi in Baja, Hungary and Gyarmath.

A family name which is an abbreviation of "Altschul" or "Eisenstadt" ( ). Such abbreviations are especially frequent in names of which the second part begins with the sound "s," for which the Hebrew puts ש. So "Lasch" ( ) is put for "Lichtenstadt," and "Nasch" ( ) for "Nikolsburg." The name "Ash" for "Eisenstadt" is found in the case of Meïr Ash, rabbi of that place, died June 7, 1744. His descendant, Abraham Ẓebi Hirsch, rabbi of Ottynia, who died Aug. 21, 1868, signs his name "Eisenstadt." "Ash" is also found as an abbreviation in the name of another Meïr Ash, whose official family-name was Eisenstaedter, author of "Imre Esh" (Words of Fire), Unghvar, 1864. He was rabbi of Unghvar, and died Dec. 27, 1861. The pun on as "fire" may also underlie the titles of the works of the first Meïr Ash, as, for instance, his "Panim Meïrot" (The Shining Face).

Read more: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=1907&amp;letter=A#...
Meïir Eisenstädter (also known-as Meïr Ash [compare Jewish Encyclopedia, ii. 176], and, after his later rabbinates, Meïr Gyarmath and Meïr Ungvár):
One of the greatest Talmudists of the nineteenth century; died at Ungvár, Dec. 2, 1861. He was called in 1807, while still a young man, to the rabbinate of Baja, where he directed a large yeshibah. He was the intimate friend of Götz, Schwerin, who was then living at Baja. When Schwerin was, through the ruin of his father-in-law, compelled to seek a rabbinate, Eisenstadt voluntarily resigned to him the office at Baja, and, on the recommendation of Moses Sofer, obtained a position at Gyarmath in 1815, removing later to Ungvá, where he died. His responsa were published after his death by his son, under the title , Ungvár, 1864.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=101&amp;letter=E#3...

5/18/2010 at 10:21 AM

I found the Photo of the Matizve of the Panim Meiros - Mahara"m Asc"h, Hids yahrtziet will soon be 27 Sivan.

Here is the source forthe photo\
http://www.ojm.at/blog/2009/08/31/hebraeischkurs-2009/

5/21/2010 at 1:16 PM

WoW!

Private User
5/31/2010 at 9:26 PM

I've been translating tombstones in the Spis Region of Slovakia for over 6 years now. I have a colleague in Slovakia who send me photographs of tombstones. Today, I received one for Gaon Hgolah, David "A"Sh." It took me quite some time to figure out what the Alef-Shin stood for, since it can mean several names as mentioned by others. The stone indicates that he was the son of the gaon (name is somewhat obscured) A"Sh, and grandson of the outstanding gaon, writer of Imrei A"Sh. His mother's name was Rivka Rachel. He died 14 Oct 1870 (3rd day of Chol Hamoed Sukkot, 5671.)
Incidentally, on another tombstone, I have seen the Maharam used for someone whose name was Meir.

6/1/2010 at 10:22 AM

Madeline,
You are looking for a granson of Rabbi Mier As"h (Eisenstadter) of Ungvar, who authored the Imrei Aish (here not pronounced Asc"h as in the surname).

He had two sons; Menachem who proceded him in Ungvar, and Yehuda, so this David should be a son of either of the two.

Mahara"m is an abreviation for any name that starts with the Hebrew letter Me"m, so it would be M'orieni H'arav R'eb M'ier (or M'oshe etc.)

Where in Slovakia is the Tumbston, can you send me the photo?

Private User
6/1/2010 at 9:52 PM

Yoel,
It is not in Slovakia, it is in Sobrancz, Ukraine. My Slovakian colleague received and forwarded the photo to me and I translated it. Actually, I got stuck, since I did not know what Alef"Shin stood for. According to a book I have, Otzar Rashei Tevot, the acronym could have stood for several names. So I had to google and try and find the right one. Always something of a mystery and a challenge.

I'll have to check whether I have permission to send you the photo of the tombstone and then I don't know how to post it to Geni.

To be continued...

6/4/2010 at 8:40 AM

This may be helpful for your research on the Maharam Ash.
http://www.jewishgen.org/rabbinic/journal/eisenstadt.htm

Private User
6/4/2010 at 10:06 AM

Sorry, I need to correct myself. Sobrance IS in Slovakia, but in a different area from where I have focussed my research. My research is in the Spis Region of Slovakia, and Sobrance is in the Zemplin area, that includes Kosice.

I am not actually researching this person or family, but when I come across an acronym, I cannot leave it at that. I wanted to know the family name so that I can include it in my spreadsheets accurately.

Aside from this family, in other cemeteries we have found distinguished rabbis (ZTz"L) or their descendents referring to Ish Horowitz; the Maharal; Landau family, Akiva Eiger, and the Chatam Sofer. There are others, but offhand I'm not including them here.

6/5/2010 at 9:45 PM

The link that Shloimie posted is not about the current Ash in question rather the Panim Meeros, see the beginning of this thread, there were two Maharam Ash's.
Yoel replied that the Mahram Ash had two sons (Yehudah and Menachem) the truth is he had three sons (at least) the third one was called Dovid. However it is not the same Dovid that Madeleine is inquiring about since that Dovid was a grand son of the Maharam Ash and not a son.

Private User
6/6/2010 at 5:49 PM

My apologies if I did not send the correct information, but David's father's first name was obscured by something on the stone. Looking at the photo again, I can now realize that David's father was Menachem, (מנחם)and it says David was the נכד הגאון המובהק בעה'מ שו"ת אמרי א"ש ז"ל
I hope the Hebrew comes through. Photographs of tombstones don't always readily reveal what you need to see.

Private User
6/9/2010 at 8:06 PM

today כ"ז סיון whos the yortzait of the bal "Ponim Me'iros" zt"l

Private User
6/9/2010 at 10:56 PM

Yakov Leib,
Are you related to Dayan Grunfeld Z"L by any chance?
Madeleine

Private User
6/13/2010 at 11:56 AM

I have a few Dayonim in my family
my Grand Father's brother Whas R' Yidel Grunfeld Dayon of Belz in Antwerp

Private User
6/13/2010 at 1:20 PM

Yakov,
I was thinking about the one in London, England, associated with the Avigdor school. One daughter was my teacher very briefly. A young son, Shia, I believe had a nice voice and sang in the school choir. (I attended Avigdor for only a few weeks in 1954. Curiously, many years later I discovered that a classmate from that time married one of my cousins.)
Madeleine

Private User
6/13/2010 at 3:01 PM

Dayan Grunfelds "AH" Son's name is Shemaya I went to kindergarten with him in London . One daughter lives in NY. I think her name is Naomi ( not sure)

Private User
6/13/2010 at 3:21 PM

Resi,

Perhaps you were also at Avigdor ca. 1954?

Yes I know Naomi. She lived in Los Angeles for a while. It was her sister who was my teacher. The young man who married my cousin was Alan Hercberg, if that rings any bells!

Any relation to a Rabbi Feldman who was in Shepherd's Bush? His daughter Angeline, was the first to teach my my Aleph-Bet!

Private User
6/13/2010 at 6:36 PM

I did not go to Avigdor I went to Yesodei Hatora ,but my parents were very good friends of Rabbi Dr. Schonfeld and my father was sent by him to Bergen Belsen .I also know sone of those Feldmans Evelyn was my teacher I think she is Gelley now or maybe Sternbuch

Private User
6/13/2010 at 6:48 PM

Resi,
I moved around a bit. 1959-1960 I went to Skinners, almost around the corener from Yesodei Hatorah, I think. Would you have known anyone in the 5th Form at Skinners at that ti,e? Rabecca Bakst? Hazel Moses? These are a couple of girls I remember.

Private User
6/13/2010 at 8:25 PM

of course I know them we all used to go to Bais Yakov on Shabbos Afternoons thats how we were all like one big family I dont remember which ot the YH girls went to Skinners and who went to Laura Place.

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