Adeliza, Adelisa, Adelaide, Alice, Alaisia: a most popular 11th century name

Started by Pam Wilson on Friday, January 15, 2010

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1/15/2010 at 5:20 PM

I've been sorting out a bunch of commonly mis-merged 11th c Adeliza/Adelaides/Alices and similar names. Keep this list for reference! The correct spouses *should* be:

-Adeliza Fitz Osulf m. Robert de Toeny/Tosny

-Adeliza/Alice de Beaumont m. Hugh I Grentmesnil and Robert Estuteville

-Adeliza de Bohun m. Main d'Aubigny

-Adeliza di Savona (del Vasto) m. Roger I of Sicily and Baldwin of Jerusalem [NOT the wife of Robert de Toeni/Tony/Tosny]

-Avice de Clare m. Robert de Stafford (sometimes mismerged with Robert de Tosny/Toni since they were cousins)

-Avelina de Crepon m Osbern Giffard de Bolbec

-Adele of Meaux m Geoffrey d'Anjou

There are many more..perhaps we can keep a running list in this discussion.

Private User
1/15/2010 at 5:42 PM

Two different dukes of Normandy had daughters called Adélaïde (Aéliz, Adeliza), and they are often confused:

Daughter of Richard II 'le Bon' and Judith:
Adeliza, comtesse de Bourgogne married Renaud I, comte palatin de Bourgogne

Daughter of Robert 'le Magnifique':
Adelaide de Normandie, comtesse d'Aumâle married three times, to Eudes II de Troyes, comte d'Aumale, Lambert II de Boulogne, comte de Lens, and Enguerrand II de Ponthieu, comte de Ponthieu et seigneur d'Aumale..

1/15/2010 at 5:42 PM

How could I forget Adeliza (Alice) de Toeni / Tosny / Toni, Heiress of Belvoir?
Adeliza de Toeni, Heiress Of Belvoir

She married Roger Bigod. Her mother was Adeliza Fitz Osulf and her father Robert de Tosny/Toeni. She was the heiress of Belvoir (as was her mother before her) and passed it down to her daughter Cecily Bigod, who married William "Brito" d'Aubigny and whose male descendents became Lords of Belvoir.

She is VERY often identified as Adeliza de Grentmesnil, who is often listed incorrectly as the wife of Roger Bigod. However, evidence is clear that Adeliza, the wife of Roger Bigod, was the daughter of Robert de Toeni.

I have not been able to find a well-documented record of a Grentmesnil daughter of this period--the only Adeliza de Grentmesnil I have found has been the married name of Adeliza de Beaumont (daughter of Ivo/Yves) who married Hugh I de Grentmesnil/Grandmesnil. I need to continue searching.

1/16/2010 at 12:07 PM

I'll post these again, his time with hyperlinks:

-Adeliza FitzOsulf du Plessis, Heiress of Belvoir m. Robert de Toeni, Lord of Belvoir

-Aélis de Beaumont-sur-Oise m. Hugh I Grentmesnil and Robert Estuteville

-Adelaide Bohun m. Main d'Aubigny

-Adelaide del Vasto, signora di Savona m. Roger I of Sicily and Baldwin of Jerusalem [NOT the wife of Robert de Toeni/Tony/Tosny]

-Avice de Clare de Toeni m. Robert of Tosny, Lord of Stafford(sometimes mismerged with Robert de Tosny/Toeni, Lord of Belvoir above, since they were uncle and nephew with the same name)

-Wevia de Crépon, Thorold's wife m Osbern Giffard de Bolbec

-Adele de Vermandois m Geoffrey "Grisegonelle" d'Anjou

2/8/2010 at 11:23 AM

William the Conqueror of England had a daughter Adelaide (Adeliza)de Normandie ([1055]-7 Dec, 1066 or after who was Betrothed ([1064/65]) to HAROLD Godwinson Earl of Wessex, son of GODWIN Earl of Wessex & his wife Gytha of Denmark ([1022/25]-killed in battle Hastings 14 Oct 1066, bur [Waltham Abbey]), who succeeded in 1066 as HAROLD II King of England.

AND another daughter ADELA de Normandie (Normandy [1066/67]-Marigney-sur-Loire 8 Mar 1138, bur Abbey of Holy Trinity, Caen who married Etienne de Bois (parents of Stephen, King of England)

Also his mother in law (Mathilde de Flanders' mother) was Adela de France.

Private User
8/28/2010 at 5:20 AM

New link to Aveline de Crépon married to Osbern de Bolbec, as somebody had merged the last one with her sister (!)
Aveline de Crépon, Osbern's wife

8/28/2010 at 6:47 AM

Thanks for bumping this discussion up, AnneMarit. I'd forgotten about it, and it's helpful to have these lists and information to help us keep from merging two unrelated people with similar names together.

Private User
8/28/2010 at 7:36 AM

I never saw this discussion before! Thank you so much for bumping it up.

Aélis de Beaumont-sur-Oise is my 25th great grandmother. If you say it's good to go, I'll work on sorting her.

I had Adeliza/Alice de Beaumont m. Hugh I Grentmesnil and Robert Estuteville, and her father as Ives de Beaumont ll, but who is her mother? Judith unknown? Adele de Gournay? Judith Adela de Gournay? Emma N. ?

Is it correct she had three children: Robert de Grandesmesnil, Ivo de Grentmesnil, and Alice de Toeni?

Private User
8/28/2010 at 8:09 AM

OK, if you ladies would be kind enough to confirm my understanding of the MEDLANDS reference:

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/PARIS%20REGION%20NOBILITY.htm

father: IVO [III] de Beaumont (-[1083/91]).
m firstly JUDITH, daughter of ---. She is named as wife of Ivo and mother of Adelise by Orderic Vitalis[29].

m secondly ADELAIS [de Gournay], daughter of [HUGUES de Gournay & his wife ---] (-8 Apr 1099). The primary source which confirms her parentage has not yet been identified. The Necrologium Bellimontense records the death “VI Id Apr” of “Adeledis comitissa Bellimontis”[30]. Ivo [III] & his first wife had one child:

i) ADELISE [Aelis] de Beaumont ([before 1045][31]-Rouen 11 Jul 1091, bur Saint-Evroul[32]). She is named as wife of Hugues by Orderic Vitalis, who also names her parents and ten children of her marriage[33].

She owned Peatling Magna, in the possession of Leofric in 1086 in Domesday Book[34]. m ([before 1060][35]) HUGUES de Grantmesnil, son of ROBERT de Grantmesnil & his wife Hawise --- (-in England 22 Feb 1098, bur Saint-Evroul).

I'm not finding her second marriage to Robert Estuteville in Medlands grrrrr.

8/30/2010 at 7:47 PM

Sorry, Erica, I only saw this post today. No, there is no mention of a marriage to Robert de Stuteville. Here is the page with the de Stuteville family, BTW: http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISHNOBILITYMEDIEVAL3P-S.htm#_To...

It shows that her son Robert de Grantmesnil married Emma de Stuteville, daughter of a Robert de Stuteville.

Here is a profile for her you might examine: http://www.geni.com/people/Ad%C3%A9la%C3%AFs-de-Beaumont-sur-Oise/6...

Private User
8/30/2010 at 11:30 PM

OK this is so wrongly done all over the internet!

If I'm getting this right, Adeliza de Beaumont had no association with Robert d'Estouteveille at all ... and is being confabulated with another Adeliza. Oh, that's the point of this thread!

This is kind of confirmed by her known death in 1091, France, seven years before her first and likely only husband, Hugh de Grentesmil, died (1098).

So ... I will separate her from the marriage and children of Robert d'Estuteville. If the actual name of the Stuteville wife doesn't become immediately obvious I'll create a placeholder.

Adeliza de Beaumont did have a number of children. One quote that doesn't cite the original source says:

"In his youth we are told he married a very beautiful lady, Adeliza, daughter of Ivo, Count of Beaumont-sur-l'Oise, by his first wife Judith, with whom he had Brokesbourne, in Herefordshire, and three lordships in Warwickshire.

She died at Rouen seven years before her husband, and was buried in the Chapter House of St. Evroult, (A charter of her son Ivo indicates that she was buried at Bermondsey.) having had issue by him five sons and as many daughters - namely, Robert, William, Hugh, Ivo, and Aubrey; Adeline, Hawise, Rohais, Matilda, and Agnes - none of whom except Robert lived to an advanced age, and he, although thrice married, died without issue in 1136."

http://www.juch.org/myancestors/aqwg99.asp

Private User
8/30/2010 at 11:31 PM

Correction: The site is quoting from the book, HUGH DE GRENTMESNIL
The Conqueror and His Companions
by J. R. Planché, Somerset Herald. London: Tinsley Brothers, 1874..

So I can probably googlebook or archivestream the original text.

Private User
8/31/2010 at 11:11 AM

I can take on Adeliza de Beaumont unstacking / correcting as a personal challenge now that I'm clearer on the facts. It will probably keep me busy for weeks. :)

If someone can point me to the likely correct wife / profile for Robert d'Estouteville that would be helpful.

Private User
8/31/2010 at 11:23 AM

PS
The problem with the merges is so many people had added display names or married names for women or didn't give enough detail for men, who were of a particular dynasty.

It's good to list out her title and where s/he was from in the Suffix to help you clean it up.

Even if a person had no last name, but you know they were of the Plantagenet line, it's good to list their last name as PLANTAGENET, add his title and city at the suffix line:
First: John
Middle: III
Last: Plantagenet
Suffix: of Lancaster, Prince of England

Or you can keep having incorrect merges because his name is listed like this:
First: Sir John
Middle: Prince of
Last name: England
Suffix: III

You know how many Sirs and Johns there were of England? LOL

I saw FOR EXAMPLE: Adelaide de Beaumont merged with Adele de Beaumont (nee de Montfort) and Adeliza Princess of England whom was already merged with Adeline Princess of France and 5 other Adel-somethings. And it's like how do you go from there?

Now if it were changed to names like:
Adelaide de Beaumont, Princess of France
Adele de Montfort, Queen of France
Adeliza de Sicily, Reina de Castilla
Adeline Plantagenet, Princess of France
Etc...that would help people NOT continuously merging the names. Since they could all be married to a John (Plantagenet, de Montfort, de Beaumont, Lancaster, Carolingian, Rodrigue, etc).

It took me over a year and go deeper into genealogy to avoid using maiden and married names. I used to like them because I thought it would help people find profiles easier. It seems to screw things up more since some people also put in display names that contradict the First, Middle, Last, Maiden. I've also stopped using Display names on OTHER profiles if I can help it...minus people like Marilyn Monroe/Norma Jean Baker whom was the same person.

What also helps me in tangled messes like the Norman and English royal families is adding in capital letters for example [DAUGHTER OF SIMON and MARY] into the middle name or suffix of a profile who has something like 15 different parents. That way I can weed out the wrong parents. If you see stuff like that, it was probably me while I was working on it in the beginning to mid August 2010.

Private User
8/31/2010 at 11:30 AM

I can't stand the use of the maiden name field for anything other than, you know, maiden names. :) But they weren't used in the middle ages.

The problem with the middle name field is that it doesn't always display. The suffix field is much better (visually) for listing out l, ll, ll etc.

"Sir Knight" etc etc are occupations and titles, not names. Something nice and simple like:

Adelaide (first name)
de Beaumont (last name)
Princess of France (suffix field *or* occupation field)

One day the names will be "locked." That will be nice. :)

Private User
8/31/2010 at 11:31 AM

Noah Tutak I would be a big help if the discussions could be easily printed out for reference. Then you would not have to have the discussions open in one tab to refer to them and another to do your work.

Private User
8/31/2010 at 11:49 AM

Mimi,

By the way, your posts are always so clear and helpful.

What I'm thinking about "display names" are cases where the names are very different, such as the Marilyn Monroe / Norma Jean Baker example. Otherwise, isn't the "nickname" field useful for these alternates?

9/11/2010 at 1:59 PM

A set of sisters with VERY similar names who I'm sure get merged together frequently--we need to keep them separate:

(from http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CENTRAL%20FRANCE.htm#ErardIIIBreteu... ; they are daughters of Erard de Breteuil):

ADELAIDE de Breteuil (-1073 or after). "…Gerduini vicecomitis, Ebrardi filii eius, Ebrardi filii Ebrardi, Hugonis fratris eius, Adeladis sororis eorum…" signed the charter dated to [1046/64] under which "Gelduinus…vicecomes" donated a serf to Marmoutier[466]. Nun at Marmoutiers [1039/42]/1073.

6. ADELAIS de Breteuil . Orderic Vitalis names Adelais, daughter of Everard du Puiset, as second wife of Roger de Montgommery and says that she was "remarkable for her gentleness and piety"[470]. m (after 1082) as his second wife, ROGER II de Montgommery Earl of Shrewsbury Baron de Bellême, son of ROGER I Seigneur de Montgommery and Vicomte de l'Hiémois & his wife Josceline --- (-Shrewsbury 27 Jul 1094, bur Shrewsbury Abbey).

They are ALSO distinct from Adèle de Bréteuïl 990-1051 who married Raoul de Vexin, as far as I can tell. Found them while searching for her documentation....

Pam

9/11/2010 at 4:26 PM

I just found *another* set of sisters with almost identical names, daughters of Adele (Aelis) de Bar-sur-Aube and Raoul III Comte de Valois, Ameins & Vexin:

d) ADELAIS de Valois (-after 1077). The Chronicle of Alberic de Trois-Fontaines names "Symonem et filiam…Adala" as children of "comitis Veromandie [error for Valois] Rodolfi" and his wife Adela[1262]. The primary source which confirms her marriage has not yet been identified. Ctss de Valois. "Herbertus Vermandensium et Vadascorum comes" donated property to the church of Saint-Quentin and others, with the consent of "Alide coniugis meæ", by charter dated 1059 (date unlikely to be correct, considering that Héribert did not succeed as Comte de Valois until 1077)[1263].

m ([1059 or before]) HERIBERT [VI] Comte de Vermandois, son of EUDES Comte de Vermandois & his wife Pavia --- ([1032]-[1080]).

e) ADELA [Alix] de Valois (-12 May [1093/1100], bur Saint-Faron). The Chronicle of Alberic de Trois-Fontaines names "Alaydis soror sancti Symonis" as wife of "comiti Campanie Theobaldo" but confuses her with her niece Adelais, daughter of Héribert [IV] Comte de Vermandois, saying that she married "Hugoni fratri regis Philippi" after the death of her husband[1264]. "Teobaudus comes palatinus…cum mulierum Adelaide" donated property to Montiérender by charter dated [1077/81] which names "bone memorie predecessorum…patris sui Odonis comitis et Heriberto cognomento senioris…comes Rodulfus predecessor suus et propinquus"[1265], the latter presumably referring to the father-in-law of Comte Thibaut III. "Adeladis comitisse" subscribed the donation to Cluny by "Rotrocus castri Mauritanie comes atque Dunensis castri vicecomes" dated 11 Jan 1078, immediately after "Tetbaldi comitis, Stephani comitis"[1266], it being assumed that she was the wife of the former not the latter. The necrology of Saint-Loup, Troyes records the death "XII Mai" of "Aalais uxor Theobaudi comitis Campaniæ" and her burial "in monasterio Sancti Faronis"[1267].

m (before 1061) as his third wife, THIBAUT III Count of Blois, Chartres and Champagne, son of EUDES II, Count of Blois, Chartres, Troyes and Champagne & his second wife Ermengarde d'Auvergne ([1010]-29/30 Sep 1089).

9/13/2010 at 4:22 PM

http://www.geni.com/merge/compare/6000000001744810758?to=6000000006...

Pam although the relationships look ok on this merge the names and dates are different and as this is such a minefield I have left it undone.

9/13/2010 at 5:55 PM

That's a total no, Terry--I unmerged it. Thanks for asking! However, about the other ones, I found a note that... you!...had written back in March in the About Me of John "The Marshall" FitzGilbert, listed as her son:

John FitzGilbert s/o Gilbert "the Marshal" & Heiress of William fitzAucher was NOT de Clare and NOT son of de Venuz or de Venoix as far as I can ascertain. His connection to the de Clare family is through his son William who married Isabel de Clare Countess of Pembroke.

If anybody can find anything to support otherwise then please say.
Terry Jackson 23 March 2010

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