Is Francois Savoie really the son of Tomaso?

Started by Donovan Domingue on Tuesday, February 9, 2010

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2/9/2010 at 1:06 PM

I have been reading doubts about the link between Francois and Tomaso.
Does anyone have an opinion about the following web info?

Someone placed this item in the wikipedia article about Tomaso
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Francis,_Prince_of_Carignan). It has no reference.

Carignano line
1. Francois Savoie/Savoye Married Catherine Lejeune in 1651 in Acadia, daughter of Pierre Lejeune & Mi'kmaq Indian Woman.

I also have read much doubt on this relation even if many people have linked this father and son on Geni.

The following is from: http://www.electroauthor.com/marcotte_genealogy/new.htm

n November, 1999, I added (disputed) lineages stemming from ancestor Francois Savoie to Charlemagne, various French, Spanish, Portuguese, and Italian Kings. Francois is storied (albeit considered unlikely) to be the illegitimate son of Thomas Francois Savoie, Prince of Carignan. Bona Arsenault, a prominent Acadian genealogist who compiled the 6-volume, Histoire et Genealogie des Acadiens, in the 1950s, was the primary source for this information. The lineage is widely claimed in "family-contributed" files on the LDS database, Ancestry.Com and others, but has been neither proven or disproven, except that Francois' mother could not have been Thomas Francois' legal wife, Marie Soissons de Bourbon, due to the dates of Francois' birth in 1621 and Marie's marriage in 1625 (unless Marie bore an illegitimate son by the prince 4 yeras prior to the marriage). There are historical, albeit possibly coincidental linkages between the Duke of Savoy and Quebec Province at the period when Francois was living there. Most researchers - including me - recognize that this lineage is dubious, and is widely considered discredited. Even Arsenault later admitted that there was no evidence beyond oral tradition to support the storied lineage. In many cases, I have subsequently redone the "royal" gateways to pass via one or more ancestors for whom there is better evidence or proof.

2/9/2010 at 2:47 PM

I believe "Histoire et Genealogie des Acadiens", in the 1950s, was the primary source for this information. The lineage is widely claimed in "family-contributed" files on the LDS database, Ancestry.Com and others, but has been neither proven or disproven. Even the author later admitted that there was no evidence beyond oral tradition to support the storied lineage. Highly disputed.

I myself would choose not to include it in the lineage, but I would like to hear what others have to say.

2/10/2010 at 10:30 AM

I agree. Anecdotal evidence is not fact, unfortunately.

Private User
8/10/2010 at 7:37 AM

I placed a note (disclaimer in the profiles for Francoise Savoie and Prince Tomás Francisco Principe di Carignano, Count of Savoy-Carignan (di Savoia) which is sure to cause distress in many, including myself who WANT to believe that these are father/son, even if illegitimate. I suggest leaving the relationship in there to reflect the possibility yet it does not interfere with the lines of children from Marie Bourbon or Catherine Estes. See note at end of this reply.

The possibility is there and the political turmoil surrounding Prince Thomas Francis life and multi polar military/diplomacy shuffling of allegiances between Piedmont, France, Spain and others (sort of a mercenary warlord and his favor/disfavor with various royal factions among his royal cousins would tend to support the possibility of the pushing away of an illegitimate son to Canada who had no possibility of real inheritance other than a little parcel of land to farm back in the Old World. Prince Tommas, while notorious and blood connected had burned several bridges and things were changing in Savoy, in a big way, being bounced between the orbit of Italy and France (borders change and so do rights to certain lands and taxation resources). Money dried up? Legitimate kids squabbling over any inheritance? Maybe. Push illegitimate brother away? maybe. No matter what, he is not the chold of Marie Bourbon or Catherine Estes. i saw something about a Mademoiselle Devreux (concubine?) not sure where.

Regarding son...Francois (Francis) For the sake of historical accuracy and the potential that my own family line to royalty goes no further than the alleged bastard son of this noble gentleman, I have an observation to make.

"I will record that Oral tradition and some Acadian/Cajun genealogists have attributed François Savoie (1621-1678), the patriarch of the Cajun Savoie family of Louisiana and Canada, as an illegitimate son of Thomas Francis, Prince of Carignan; however, this has been a rather disputed claim." from wikipedia

Seeing other authentication of proof of father son relationship. I am an historian 1st, with no claims to grandoise bloodlines if not true. If it is, then this is incredible. The people who made this claim obviously knew at the time the importance of Savoy blood and its ties to European royalty. Starting a life in the new world Acadia in Canada and Acadia in Louisiana might be boosted with a royal claim in New France. Is is true?
note added 080910 GSF.

8/10/2010 at 8:13 AM

I like your idea (love the history lesson!) about putting in the link but adding all the info about its veracity. Especially since it doesn't interfere with any true linkages. JMNSHO.

Private User
8/10/2010 at 9:54 AM

Thanks Marsha. I knew this pivot key was the make or break to my claim to any royal/nobility being my 8th and alleged 9th great grandfathers. Prince Tomás Francisco Principe di Carignano, Count of Savoy-Carignan (di Savoia) is the ultimate key to ALL the royal houses of Western Europe, Scandinavia, Ancient Roman/Greek/Parthian/Persian/Armenian/Babylonian/Egyptian (Ptolemaic ie. Cleopatra or previous Pharoahnic Dynasties ie. Ramses II etc.) as well as the biblical line of Abraham/Issac/Jacob.
My wonderment is if the original claimant to this blood tie between the Savoys (royal) and Francoise Savoy (Savoie) knew the import of such a claim. I am sure they did in 1950 (Arsenault the geneologist of Cajun/Acadia history). The even harder nut to crack is DID Francois Savoy go around calling himself a prince or was this an appendage given hm by later generations. I suggest he KNEW something about his lineage and it is hard to back that claim up when you are stuck in the backwoods of Eastern Canada trying to eek out a living on a farm as a ploughman "laboreur" to disinterested people in the same situation as you are. WHo would believe him? If they did could, his story be upheld by historical proof of leaving his home in France (a sizeable landholding supposedly in Loire valley which is area of Bourbons (Marie's family)
It IS possible she bore him early out of wedlock before marriage while Prince Thomas was out doing his warmongering thing (no disrepect-he was a fierce military leader and admirably capable noble)

I suggest Marie may be his mother, just 4 years prior to wedlock..put away for shame or whatever reason being it would have actually been his FIRST child by chronology...1621, right? If not, he may be the son of an heretotherefore unnamed woman,but I doubt it is Catherine Estes.

My world view changed thinking of the NON-link. Kind of depressing but I can't do anything about it. Perhaps my goal is to prove this link as a matter of pride now. Without it, I guess several of us collaborators on Geni are all "alleged" cousins 9 generations back from me and over. Oh well. you are all family to me anyway. Thanks!

I want ship manifests now to Port Royal Acadie. I need to find out what ship he was on and it will list important data. next goal. anyone can help?

8/13/2010 at 8:26 AM

Back in Oct 2006 I was on Worldroots.com and found a picture of Tomaso and his family. There was his wife and three young children and in the back ground was Tomaso and a young Francois. I can't get on Worldroots anymore but maybe someone would like to check this out. I really enjoyed reading your comments as I feel the same way about what was said. Good Luck...

Private User
8/13/2010 at 9:06 AM

@Doddie. Thank you. That warms my heart to know that there may be more historical evidence of this relationship. The picture was obviously some portrait type memoir of that family hopefully can be found on an images search in Google.com and is resting in some museum somewhere or private collection, perhaps in the Savoy house in Turin Italy...which of course became one of the first national museums in a united Italy in 1861. Is the wife Marie Bourbon that you recall the captions or explanations as saying?

Private User
8/13/2010 at 10:14 AM

Going back over marriage accounts of Marie and Thomas Francis which which show 1625 as Date of marriage, not 1618, making the possibility of fatherhood of Francois less likely under LEGITIMATE circumstances. It doesn't outright disprove any father/son relationship with Prince Tomas Francisco.

I have to reconcile marriage date of 1618 that I saw in one source with jan 6 1625 in another source which would make any child named Francois 4 years old when they were married. Most records back up the 1625 marriage date.

8/13/2010 at 9:03 PM

Gregory, That has been a long time ago and I can't remember now what was written. I just remember I found the pictures on Worldroots.com. I remember there was also a picture of Prince Tomaso in his uniform with many metals he won and he was sitting down. Maybe someone or you can find it, the website is still open. I don't belong to them now. I did about 40 yrs. of genealogy and done abstract work for the LDS for several years, but my health forced me to give it up... I have done my genealogy and both my parents come from royalty. My mother on the French Royal line and my father the Scottish Royal line. I do remember they listed Prince Tomaso's first wife as Mrs. Savoie , Sorry I can't help you more. Doddie...

Private User
8/13/2010 at 10:22 PM

@Doddie. Thanks for all your research which I am sure has gone into the big tree we have here for all of us, related or not. I am motivated to do what others have failed to do and that is prove the oral tradition true with source materials that are irrefutable and corroborate the testimony such that it would hold up in court. Is a legal approach historical, I saw yes. Common sense has a lot to do with it and understanding of the history of the time period for ANY profile that has issues of questionable or conflicting parentage. WE all know there are several conflicting sets of parents claimed for certain people. Great to have collaborators and Pros who can help sort these out. Even the layman on Geni can contribute greatly to the veracity of certain evidence in a paternity/maternity controversy.
Thanks for all your input.

9/5/2010 at 4:44 PM

I read somewhere that Fraoncois Savoy declared on his deathbed that he
was the illegitimate son of Thomas Carignan. Does anyone have a source
on that? Deathbed confessions are considered rather reliable--also he
would not then have been using his status in his own lifetime. My general
perspetive on "reliability" is that even on birth certificates someone is
reporting who the father is. . . How much less reliable would a deathbed
confession be than a mom's declaration of paternity?? I am a descendent
of Francois Savoy, and I am interested in any research being done on
this.

Private User
9/5/2010 at 9:45 PM

@Michael. The only way we are ever going to find out for 100 percent certainty about any ties to the Savoia family of Italy which is the original family in Turino is to see if the current Duke of Aosta and Apulia named Aimone has the same blodd. We all now probably have him as roughly either our 10th-11th cousin if we are descended from Francois Savoie like I am as well. This guy I mention is the 11th grand nephew of Prince Tomas Francesco Savoia di Carignino. b 1967. That would be an immediate sign through genetics that we are related, even through an illegitimate link through an unknown mother with Tomas Francesco or a before marriage birth in 1621 to Marie Bourbon (married 1625) and hidden away in shame.
Either way, the Tomas link is key to the modern Savoia's..also another 11th cousin Emmanuele Filiberto...b. 1972. The first guy I mentioned is almost my identical twin in features when I have my beard grown and the hair and eyes are identical. Same slender build etc. I believe that is no coincidental in the gene pool. He or his cousin would be King of Italy if there was a current monarchy. Now to get them to agree to matching bloodwork to solve the Francois Savoie parentage issue. All we have to do is match a European Savoie of that line and BINGO.

9/6/2010 at 4:47 AM

Gregory - excuse me, Prince Gregory ;) - have you asked the Duke to take a DNA test? He may not be as inaccessible as one might think. Go for it!

http://www.crocerealedisavoia.it/index.php?option=com_content&t...

9/6/2010 at 2:24 PM

Thank you Gregory for this update. Yes, If there can be DNA evidence properly examined, THAT would be marvellous. Have these Savoie cousins been
contacted by anyone for this?

9/22/2010 at 4:39 AM

i found out that aimone is a descendant of tomaso and is from the same line
and is the duke of apulia.

Private User
9/22/2010 at 6:21 AM

Now who has the connections to politely ask Aimone or any other Savoia/Savoie/Savoy family members of this line to compare blood tests? I will click on the link that Marsha has provided to see if it leads us in the right direction. Aimone is practically my twin in many physical features.
Same eye shape (not color) , facial bone structure, lankiness of build.
It is amazing the resemblance. You might not be able to tell as some of the pics have on my GENI profile are when I was overweight. LOL.
Now that I am my svelte self again, I could be his body double. ha ha.
If Aimone (modern day Duke Aosta/Apulia is of Tomaso Francesco (easily proven/disproven) then if Francois is as well as claimed (not as easily proven without genetics) then yes, the royal ties are there.

Exciting.

9/22/2010 at 10:43 AM

Wow. I sure hope you get an answer! I'll be following this discussion closely! Good luck!

9/24/2010 at 12:15 PM

I look forward to more results too.

I am a direct decendent of Francois SAVOIE
Birth: ABT 1621
Death: BEF 1679

9/24/2010 at 1:24 PM

im another descendant from francois savoie

Candace Fletcher
9/24/2010 at 10:37 PM

@ Gregory. Hello cousin! I am also a direct descendant of Francois Savoie. The last time any of my immediate family members carried the name Savoie was my great grandmother Evelyn Savoie. Until her all of my line were men and carried on the name.

I had a thought about this DNA thing. All this talk about getting the Savoie/Savoy's in Europe to do a DNA test is a great idea but I think that there is someone right here in the the states that would be more accessible. Did anyone watch that show "Who do you think you are"...where some movie stars trace their genealogy? Well Brooke Sheilds was one of them. And guess what...she is a desendent of Tammaso also but through a different path. Her tree shows that she is related to one of Tommaso's other sons...which would be our Francois' brother. Check out this website http://lagenealogy.net/shieldsBrooke.aspx. The website is not related to the show that she was on but does chart her tree.

Any thoughts on that?

9/25/2010 at 7:53 AM

Hers would be mtDNA and not YDNA, though. That would make a difference in testing the parentage thing, right? I'm not scientist, though, and don't even pretend to be one!

DId see the program and it was great. Kind of a princess rags to riches story as she's related to a lot of royalty. Beauty, brains, and great genes/jeans! LOL!

Private User
9/25/2010 at 8:08 AM

For those who wonder about DNA and genealogy, see (follow) this thread:
http://www.geni.com/discussions/6000000009845121265

It has brief introductions to the various tests you can take.

9/26/2010 at 11:51 AM

i read on a website that after he died his children recorded that lineage because they said that he told them that.

Private User
9/26/2010 at 12:03 PM

Yes. The deathbed confession is documented.
If I were him, I would definitely have played that up from day one, even before leaving with the group of Normandy farmers to settle in L'Acadie. Perhaps he did. Who knows. Maybe he was incognito for fear of being a target of jealous people. I don't know. If he is the son of Tomas, it is still not sure if he is the son of Marie Bourbon so the idea of an unknown mother partner is out there still.

If Marie Bourbon bore a child 4 years before marrying Tomas and they had a shame with the Church as well as both noble families (IBourbon and Savoy) then it is completely understandable that he chose a new life in the New World. He officially would not inherit anything as a bastard son.
I feel that he had some means of support as he is listed as a leader of the colonization efforts and led a group of Normandy farmers to Canada. That takes money and support from somewhere, even if it is a "shove off" from family to get the young man out of the picture in France/Italy.

Francois married well in Canada, Catherine LeJeune was of Henri Membertou lineage, the great MicMac chief. (OK..even that is disputed)

Either way, Savoys and the other families that married into and came from that line are very blessed and are integral parts of Canada as well as Louisiana history. We are proud and made our OWN mark in the New World, royal ties or not.

9/26/2010 at 1:47 PM

there is a lot about Francois on the world wide web
I guess all of you seen this web page in case you did not here it is.

http://savoiegenealogy.blogspot.com/

9/29/2010 at 12:24 PM

the early as story you probably know savoie was originally savoia and northern italian in origin. they migrated over the border to the south
of france and settled the savoie province french blood defininately
but originally italian.

Private User
9/29/2010 at 2:12 PM

@Joshua. Absolutely. This region, even during the time of Tomas Francesco di Savoia was in flux. Francois alleged father fought at various times in what one could call a "warlord" or mercenary capacity for the Spanish as well as Bourbon French interests alternately for a nationalistic Piedmont area which varied allegiances between the 3 major power influences in the area, France/Italy/and Spanish royal interests. Italy was not yet a kingdom until 1860 nor united so various city-state/regional powers existed. This of course all played into who supported the Papal states or the Lombardy states or even the area south of Naples which part of the Sicily kingdom, not just the island of Sicily (The Savoys figured big in South Italy too) However, Turin (Turino) Italy was traditionally the family home of the Savoys (Savoia/Savoie/Savoye) in various spelling/pronunciations depending on national perspective. The family as far as I can trace actually has Swiss origin (original home of the Burgundian peoples of which the area of Burgundy, France is names)
In fact another fact that people may not realize is that the famed "SHROUD of TURIN" is what you could colloquially call a "family hierloom" of the House of Savoy. Pretty neat.

Even if I am shown not to be related past Francois, studying this family is indeed a pleasure and much fun. I really find it wild that the relationship possibility of Francois and the alleged father Tomas Francesco opens up the keys to what may be the most storied bloodline in history from every angle. That is no small boast. The bigger story is if Marie Bourbon is the mother and that relationship were proven. Then you and I and several others can legitimately claim some very serious pedigree, direct and through 11 cousins over like every single sitting monarch and monarch to be in Europe.
Maybe someone doesn't want anyone to prove that link.... hmmmm.

9/30/2010 at 7:08 AM

would there be any birth certificates about francois savoie concering where he was born in italy.

Private User
9/30/2010 at 8:03 AM

@Joshua. I doubt it in terms of "birth certificate" in the modern sense. The closest thing would be Church Parish records if any or Baptismal certificate. At issue is specifically which Parish or Diocese. The records I have seen show FRANCE not Italy as his place of birth. "Francois Savoie was born Abt. 1621 at Martaize, Loudun, Vienne, France, and died Bef. 1686." It is accepted that he was born in 1621 but the illegitimate status might have unfortunately made him "outside" of the official Church recordkeeping by the rules of the Church. If anyone has any insight into this issue for ANY ancestor on GENI, not just Francois, that would be great. The way the Roman Catholic church addresses these issues today may not be the same as in 17th century. I don't know honestly because I am not Catholic. The records USUALLY would show parentage but many people obviously were "off the grid" then as now (some by choice but that is another matter)

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