Is Francois Savoie really the son of Tomaso?

the early as story you probably know savoie was originally savoia and northern italian in origin. they migrated over the border to the south
of france and settled the savoie province french blood defininately
but originally italian.

@Joshua. Absolutely. This region, even during the time of Tomas Francesco di Savoia was in flux. Francois alleged father fought at various times in what one could call a "warlord" or mercenary capacity for the Spanish as well as Bourbon French interests alternately for a nationalistic Piedmont area which varied allegiances between the 3 major power influences in the area, France/Italy/and Spanish royal interests. Italy was not yet a kingdom until 1860 nor united so various city-state/regional powers existed. This of course all played into who supported the Papal states or the Lombardy states or even the area south of Naples which part of the Sicily kingdom, not just the island of Sicily (The Savoys figured big in South Italy too) However, Turin (Turino) Italy was traditionally the family home of the Savoys (Savoia/Savoie/Savoye) in various spelling/pronunciations depending on national perspective. The family as far as I can trace actually has Swiss origin (original home of the Burgundian peoples of which the area of Burgundy, France is names)
In fact another fact that people may not realize is that the famed "SHROUD of TURIN" is what you could colloquially call a "family hierloom" of the House of Savoy. Pretty neat.

Even if I am shown not to be related past Francois, studying this family is indeed a pleasure and much fun. I really find it wild that the relationship possibility of Francois and the alleged father Tomas Francesco opens up the keys to what may be the most storied bloodline in history from every angle. That is no small boast. The bigger story is if Marie Bourbon is the mother and that relationship were proven. Then you and I and several others can legitimately claim some very serious pedigree, direct and through 11 cousins over like every single sitting monarch and monarch to be in Europe.
Maybe someone doesn't want anyone to prove that link.... hmmmm.

Post deleted by joshua rediker on Sep 30, 2010 at 7:08 AM

would there be any birth certificates about francois savoie concering where he was born in italy.

@Joshua. I doubt it in terms of "birth certificate" in the modern sense. The closest thing would be Church Parish records if any or Baptismal certificate. At issue is specifically which Parish or Diocese. The records I have seen show FRANCE not Italy as his place of birth. "Francois Savoie was born Abt. 1621 at Martaize, Loudun, Vienne, France, and died Bef. 1686." It is accepted that he was born in 1621 but the illegitimate status might have unfortunately made him "outside" of the official Church recordkeeping by the rules of the Church. If anyone has any insight into this issue for ANY ancestor on GENI, not just Francois, that would be great. The way the Roman Catholic church addresses these issues today may not be the same as in 17th century. I don't know honestly because I am not Catholic. The records USUALLY would show parentage but many people obviously were "off the grid" then as now (some by choice but that is another matter)

@Douglas.
RE: there is a lot about Francois on the world wide web
I guess all of you seen this web page in case you did not here it is.

http://savoiegenealogy.blogspot.com/

i really enjoyed this post and the link. Thank you. It is an amalgamation of many of the similar musings I had through different sources that I pieced together on my own and this post seems to sum it up. He definitely would have been eldest and next in line for accession to any claim to head of household. The idea of banishment and/or exile due to political fallout in France makes a lot of sense. It is too bad that much of this historical interpretation, if true seems to have been whitewashed. "conspiracy theory-LOL" The current House of Savoy sure isn't interested in finding out or verifying the assertions of Francois' noble lineage possibilities. I wonder why?

Post deleted by joshua rediker on Oct 1, 2010 at 5:54 AM

Post deleted by joshua rediker on Oct 2, 2010 at 1:36 PM

Post deleted by joshua rediker on Oct 2, 2010 at 3:33 PM

who was catherine d' este a descendant of lucrezia borgia.

Post deleted by joshua rediker on Oct 2, 2010 at 8:40 PM

Post deleted by joshua rediker on Oct 9, 2010 at 11:32 AM

is it because they are hiding stuff that they wouldnt want us to find ou about francois's past.

it is notable that settipani in his book on the bourbons gives no other
marriage for thomas francois savoie, a thing he is quite scrupulous
about doing. thomas lived a quite long life for the period of 1596 - 1656.
likewise settipani would have mentioned a morgantic marriage
if such had occured at that time.

but as extensive records were kept by royal/noble families of this ilk of such matters

francois is not listed as a child of this marriage by any official records
of the house of savoy or other records of european royalty.

a germain savoie asserted this a book written about 20 years ago
francois savoie 1621 france (probably france in vienne region of northern poitou came to acadia bef 1650 married catherine lejeune. the theory is that
francois was the son (illegitmite) of thomas francois savoie.

thomas and marie had 5 or 6 kids, including 3 sons, none of whom were
named francois .

it seems that some of the soldiers used to supress the iroquois and later sent
to port royal, acadie (i believe)

marie soissons de bourbon could not be the mother of francois savoie

thomas illegitmite it is more likely we would know the mother and not the father.

the author in his book records as his father told him.

francois came over on the ship st clement from the port of st marlo
1642 or 1643.

for the rest of 1642 and part of 1643 campaigns thomas commaded piedmontese forces fighting along side the french under henri ii d' orleans
duc de longueville against the spanish, generally along the piedmont/milan border.

i think that the reason he left is because his father wanted him gone.

François is my 9th great grandfather, so I'm definitely interested in knowing more.

would illegitmite children of princes and royalty be recorded in records or not
cause their born out of wedlock and when you banished does that mean all records of you are stricken.

tomasso's father carlo emanuele i di savoia had 5 illegitmite children by different women. and the treaty of londun was signed on may 3, 1616.

It baffles me to believe that my 9th ggf would NOT at any other time other than his deathbed assert that he was the son of Tomas Francesco. The whole issue unfortunately is a sad story for many generations who held on to or hold on to the hope of such a tie, myself included.

I wish there were contemporary accounts of any claims of such while preparing to leave France and establishing a life in Canada, that others had recorded. He seemed to be a humble man who did not go around boasting of any such relationship. If he had, we definitely would have heard about it in the history books.

The other real fun is Francois wife...Catherine LeJeune and her supposed relationship to Chief Henri Membertou, another complete fabrication according to some bloodtype analysis of ancestors. There is Indian blood in their children's children but sometimes a tall tale goes a long way on the frontier.

does that mean that he never was tomaso francesco's son, and that he lied about it on his deathbed, then why would he say on his deathbed that he was
tomas francesco's son, before he died and never mention it before
was it because he figured that nobody would believe him is that why,
i still think that he was tomaso francesco's illegitmite son,
the only thing would be to is find out where you could get a copy of his baptizem record cause that would explain who he really was,
because people have said that he was born in torino, piedmonte, savoy, italy and was baptized in martaize, vienne, france that might be a possiblity, cause i have a hard time believing that he was just some poor farmer.

in turin there is the savoy house there's a photo of a woman three kids and tomaso and young francois that could be our francois.

see because he left 1642 - 1643 from st malo, france to go to port royal,
for the rest of 1642 and part of 1643 campaigns thomas commanded
piedmontese forces. and i found out that francois before leaving for port royal, acadie, he came around aunlay and stayed at the manor of aunlay which belonged to charles d' aunlay and that where the acadians stayed.

on one site they said he left 1648.

they said that they found no records of any savoies leaving martaize, vienne, londun, france.

someone said that the savoie's had castillan blood.
and this woman got a piece of paper with savoia family tree and it included
francois savoie and the person that gave it to her died and dont whre he got it from.

Joshua. Your 11/20th post has great info. I still have never seen a picture of that painting with the 3 kids. Did it have a label saying Francois? People keep talking about it but a scan of a photo of that pic uploaded would be great for all to investigate. Thanks!

Interesting Castillian info. THat might be why one person put some profile on here about a Catherine as a potential mother, maybe from Tomas Francesco's Spanish ties when he fought as mercenary for Spain at one time.

Keep the ideas coming. I was totally against the concept of a Catherine as opposed to Marie Bourbon because the info in the profile was bogus in terms of parentage of that person. That doesn't mean another "mother" candidate does not exist, just not documented yet well enough.

G

I really appreciate these posts on this site. The Tid-Bits are fascinating & I hope eventually there will be more definitive documentation. I have to think that on all "royal" lineages there will be a motive at times for a woman to make a claim where the royal "father" may not agree. These "royal" dads clearly had mistresses for at least a couple of generations--were these relationships well-known and undisputed, I wonder? Because of the "deathbed" nature of Francois Savoy's
declaration of royal lineage (according to the family tradition) it seems
he himself really believed the claim & had avoided using it to wordly
advantage while he was alive--could his mom or her relatives have
passed along "her" version of events that might not have jived with
the "official" royal explanation? My wife works with Declarations Of
Paternity all the time, and subsequent DNA tests do NOT always
match up--does anyone know if this kind of dilemna came up often
in the Royal Courts??

francois savoie in the back of his mind maybe wanted a new life,
and doing so he left every he new, his royal life style for a less confortable, cause see catherine died 1627 6 yrs after francois was born so the question is who raised him.

was it tomasso or someone else and did carlo emanuele di savoia i tomasso's dad know about his illegitmite grandchild.

i think that are answers lie in italy it may sound funny, but say
catherine went to torino, piedmonte, italy, met tomasso and they a baby boy francois grew up being royal and would have been the second prince of carignano and when tomasso, met marie, they married
on jan 6, 1625 at paris, france had 7 kids maybe she resented the fact that her son emanuele filibert amedeo di savoia would not be second in line, so she might have gave francois a shove, so her son could be next in line.

emanuele filiberto was 2nd prince of carignan and that's the way marie and tomasso wanted it or just marie.

the question is was catherine philip iii habsburg and margaret of austria's daughter or was she catherine d' este.

see philip iii habsburg and margaret had 8 kids 5 survived into adulthood.

i think maybe philip iii habsburg had a mistress and she bore catherine.

catherine habsburg was born in 1600 at madrid spain and she died 1627.

Thanks for your last input especially of the succession power play theory. Putting an illegitimate Francois out of sight, out of mind and removing his potential to inherit any title would have been a motivation for scrubbing the family history. At current, noone in the Italian Savoia family wants to touch the subject, keeping their own ties to Tomas Francesco locked down with no questionable "new world" relatives, as many of us are if this is true.

Whoever raised the young Francois, if his mother died (presumably Catherine as a candidate) may have been like a noble family nursemaid. It is not like it hasn't happened before in history. Catherine dies around his 6th year. Tomas is frolicking with Marie de Bourbon, getting married in 1625 I believe. She wants no interference with her own children, the current Savoia descendants. Francois raised as a semi-privileged landed Martaize farmer (this was in the area that the Bourbons held land). Knowing he won't get title rights in either Piedmont/Turin Savoie area in either Italy or France, he bolts with a colonization expedition to Acadie. Free to make his own way, sink or swim, he starts his own life in Canada. Voila...many of us have him as 8th, 9th or 10th great grandfather.

(Much of above is not history-just conjecture FYI)

I am very interested now in the Catherine story as I had been dead set against any such relationship before.

it said that catherine was philip iii habsburg's daughter with a woman named catherine she might have been born in the el escorial palace in madrid built by philip iii habsburg's father, philip ii habsburg.

philip iii habsburg was the product of an uncle marring his niece anna habsburg of austria .

so that means tomasso and catherine would have cousins.

on jan 6, 1625 in paris, france when francois was 4 they were married

kissing cousins in Euro royal families? Nah. Never. LOL. Wouldn't be the first time. That was one of the reasons people went before the church for divorce sometimes, for what they called "co-sanguinity" or sharing the same blood. Might explain the shunning of a product of such a union.
Please someone send me a link to the picture of the supposed young francois.

catherine probably met him and then started to court each other
when he found that she was pregnant it might have worried him
maybe so after catherine gave birth to francois she raised him her
self without tomasso's help them when she died the rest of francois' s life he was raised on a farm.
that's probably why francois listed himself as a laboureur.
and deep down he knew that he was prince francois savoie of carignan