Error... Don't believe he was married to Chana Toba Zylberberg

Started by Jacob Gryn on Saturday, June 5, 2010

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6/5/2010 at 9:35 PM

I think there's an error here. He married Ruchla Szarf - Zylberberg Ruchla Ruchla Zylberberg (nee Lesman) in 1854 (her first husband was Jakob Josek Jakob ZYLBERBERG). The confusion was that Ruchla had a sister named Chana Toba Lesman Chana Toba Zylberbergwho married Josek Juda Zylberberg Joska Zylberberg.

In any case, take a look at the following records from JRI

Olkusz Marriages 1836-70
Kielce Gubernia / Krakow Province
Located at 50°17’ 19°34’
Last updated November 1997
Surname Givenname Year Akt Type Age Father Fathersurn Fatherage Mother Mothersurn Motherage
ZYLBERBERG Jakob Josek 1848 2 M 18 Majer ZYLBERBERG Brayndl ZEYDNER
LESMAN Ruchla 1848 2 M 19 Aba LESMAN Mary Bluma GOLDSZEIN
SZARF Haim 1854 2 M 18 Nuchym SZARF Ryfka Hai SZARF
SILBERBERG Rochla 1854 2 M 24 Aba LESMAN Mary LESMAN

Meanwhile, I believe we need to somehow remove the 'marriage link' between Haim Szarf and Chana Toba Lesman, as I believe this was an entry error.

6/5/2010 at 9:47 PM

I think in order to make the correction, there are pending merges on Jakob ZYLBERBERG / Jakob ZYLBERBERG / Jakob ZYLBERBERG (FYI I believe the name order is Jakob Josek, see JRI RECORD below)
Olkusz Marriages 1836-70
Kielce Gubernia / Krakow Province
Located at 50°17’ 19°34’
Last updated November 1997
Surname Givenname Year Akt Type Age Father Fathersurn Fatherage Mother Mothersurn Motherage
ZYLBERBERG Jakob Josek 1848 2 M 18 Majer ZYLBERBERG Brayndl ZEYDNER

The other pending merge is Ruchla Szarf - Zylberberg / Ruchla Szarf - Zylberberg

6/5/2010 at 9:51 PM

Linda Silverman and Private User need to take a quick look to complete the merges above and verify my thoughts on this matter.

6/5/2010 at 9:52 PM

Copy to Zohar Aluf (Halifi) who may also be interested in this matter.

6/5/2010 at 10:11 PM

Sorry for all the posts, looks like I was able to resolve the issue of the data entry error for the marriage with Chaim.

For some reason it didn't work before, but after posting the above messages, the ability to remove the connection was suddenly there.

Nevertheless, there are a few pending merges.

Private User
6/6/2010 at 2:34 AM

Dear all,
unfortunately there is a second more severe confusion. You all have listed
Josek Juda ZYLBERBERG as son of Mordka and Sara ZYLBERBERG. To my opinion this error may be due either to the JRI marriage entry or to a clerk's fault in the Olkusz civil office.
If you consider Jozef's 1829 birth record showing him as son of Majer ZYLBERBERG and Brayndla ZAJDNER you will understand and hopefully correct this error with the non-existing parents Mordka and Sara, too.
Frankly: Jozef (Juda) ZYLBERBERG (1829) married to Chana Toba LESMAN was brother to Jakob ZYLBERBERG (1830) married to Ruchla LESMAN.
Best regards
Fred

6/6/2010 at 6:30 AM

Before we correct it, let's take a closer look in JRI, keeping in mind there maybe Jakob Josek, and Josek Juda who are not brothers (although their wives, I believe there is no dispute, were sisters).

Private User
6/6/2010 at 7:29 AM

Why don't you look for yourself before writing ?

Olkusz Births 1810-25,27-35
Kielce Gubernia / Krakow Province
Located at 50°17’ 19°34’
Last updated November 1997

Surname Name Year Akt Father Mothersurn Occupation Date Mother
ZYLBERBERGER Josek 1829 24 Majer ZAYDNER 11/30 Braydl
ZYLBERBERGIER Jakob 1830 21 Maier ZAYDNER 11/15 Brandla

6/6/2010 at 3:46 PM

Was running out of the house, so I gave a quick response.

I see what you're saying. Looks compelling.

For reference, the apparently erroneous marriage record is
ZYLBERBERG Josek Juda 1851 4 M 20 Mordka ZYLBERBERG Sara ZYLBERBERG
LESMAN Toba 1851 4 M 18 Aba LESMAN Mary Bluma LESMAN

Along with another potentially erroneous record
ZYLBERBERG Jakob Josek 1848 2 M 18 Majer ZYLBERBERG Brayndl ZEYDNER
LESMAN Ruchla 1848 2 M 19 Aba LESMAN Mary Bluma GOLDSZEIN

listing Jakob Josek.

If the 2 are brothers, I would presume (as your records show) that the second one would just be Jakob (not Jakob Josek).

Anyway, I'm inclined to make the correction, however, maybe it's worth trying to see the original handwritten records, maybe it's something that will clear things up. Possibly we can request JRI make a correction based on what we see.

Any possibility that there was another Josek Zylberberg born prior to 1810, of which we don't have any birth records?

Private User
6/6/2010 at 6:39 PM

You are right, the name Jozef was inherited from the common grandfather Jozef born prior to 1790. He is listed on his son's 1828 M record.
The assumption that Jozef (1829) and Jakob (Josek) (1830) are brothers is supported by the identical given names of their firstborn two children Maria and Rochyma.
Secondly the age of the grooms in their marriage records fits to the birth records of the brothers.
Of course it would be the proper way to inspect the original handwritten record.
However, this would not be the first case of a record with a clerk's error.
When data have already been put to the web it causes a lot of effort to correct single bugs in this late stage. JRI explicitely lists on their homepage that entries may be affected by errors.
JRI always needs volunteers, your contribution in data entry/proofing in an early stage will be welcome.

6/7/2010 at 7:44 PM

What would be required to get the original records, and/or any related documents just to see if it's a data entry error?

Private User
6/7/2010 at 10:27 PM

One can either order a copy of the record of question from the Mormons or you can loan the complete microfilm 875262 of Olkusz 1827 - 1840 and inspect it for yourself in the Family History Center.

6/8/2010 at 5:20 AM

I’m sorry, but I am now totally discombobulated!!

According to the records that I found in the Kielce Radom SIG Journal, Josek Jakob was in fact called Josek Jakob and he was born about 1830 in Olkusz.

Again in the KR SIG Journal (marriage records) I found Josef Juda who was born about 1831 in Zarnowiec and was the son of Mordka and Sara.

If I understand what you are saying, then the two men are actually brothers:

A) Josek Jakob is actually JAKOB (JOSEK), he was born in 1830 and he was married to RUCHLA LESMAN.
B) Josef Juda is actually JOSEF and he was born in 1829 and married to CHANA TOBA LESMAN.
C) They are both the sons of Maier and Brayndla.

Is this correct? Of course all of this information is taken from the records of the KR Journal, JRI Poland and the naming traditions of the children of the two men. No one has actually been through the LDS films yet. Correct?

Thanks for some clarification!!

Private User
6/8/2010 at 6:34 AM

Hi Linda,
all what you mention A)B)C) is correct.
Jakob ZYLBERBERG was born (Olkusz 1830 B#21) and passed away (Olkusz 1852 D#20) as son of Majer ZYLBERBERG and Brandla ZAJDNER.
He was married to the sister of bis brother's wife and his two children have the same given names as his brothers' children.
Unfortunately Jakob marriage record index (Olkusz 1848 M#2) shows strange parents' given names (Mordka, Sara).
So I conclude this marriage entry must be either an indexing error or a clerk's error. If anybody wants to clarify this he could inspect the original document in the LDS microfilm.

6/8/2010 at 7:19 AM

Thanks Fred. I've made the corrections and also rechecked the confusion regarding who Haim Szarf married. I checked the KR Journal again and it was my error; he did marry Ruchel. I went to correct it in Geni but see that it has already been taken care of. So I believe all is well in the Zylberberg world for now!!

All the best,
Linda

6/13/2010 at 12:07 AM

I'm new to checking the handwritten records, I'd like to follow up on this 1848 marriage record as well as possibly the birth records. I do realize that the records are written in polish, however, I do have relatives that can read this.

How would I go about getting these records? Are the microfilms available online somehow, or is there someone who I can contact to e-mail them over? Alternatively, do I have to order a printed copy somehow?

Private User
6/13/2010 at 6:04 AM

How to order single LDS records:
http://www.bh.org.il/database-articles.aspx?56011
To inspect an LDS microfilm in a LDS family research centre you must loan the film before in the web:
https://wiki.familysearch.org/en/Introduction_to_LDS_Family_History....

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