Curators at work: Anglo-Normans

Hi Reg--sorry for the delay, but I only just saw this post.

Agreed for the most part. Actually, there is another, more circuitous connection. Read what I wrote on the d'Aubigny project page at http://www.geni.com/projects/The-d-Aubigny-and-de-Albini-families-o.... (See especially the third paragraph on Adeliza Fitz-Osulf du Plessis and the honour of Belvoir). I'll copy here:

The d'Aubigny families (later called and spelled D'Albini, de Albini, Daubeny, and so on) were prominent Anglo-Norman families who originated on the Cotentin peninsula in Normandy. The two distinct families in Norman England were

(1) The d'AUBIGNY FAMILY OF ARUNDEL (also the "Pincerna" d'Albignys): the descendants of William (Guillaume) "Of The Isles" d'Aubigny, Seigneur de Saint-Martin-d'Aubigny, c. 1010-1068, believed to be a son of Néel (Neil, Nigel) I (III) de Saint Sauveur, Vicomte de Cotentin (St. Saveur). Guillaume "of the Isles" married Adeliza FitzOsulf le Freyne du Plessis, Heiress of Belvoir; she later married Roger de Tosny who became Lord of Belvoir.

Ironically, the d'Aubigny family that was to become the Lords of Belvoir was not descended from her through her d'Aubigny children, but rather through her de Tosny children, since it was her daughter Adeliza de Tosny's daughter Cicely Bigod (whose father was Roger Bigod, Sheriff of Norfolk and Suffolk) who inherited the honor of Belvoir and in marrying William "Brito" d'Aubigny (from the "other" d'Aubigny family; see below) he became Lord of Belvoir. Adeliza FitzOsulf's own grandson William d'Aubigny, on the other hand (son of Roger "Pincerna" d'Aubigny) became Lord of Arundel.

(2) The d'AUBIGNY FAMILY OF BELVOIR: the descendants of Main d'Aubigny, Seigneur de Saint-Aubin-d'Aubigné and his wife Adelaide de Bohun. This branch is often called the Albini Brito branch, since Main's son William "Brito" d'Aubigny (who married Cicely Bigod) was called The Breton, as was his son William "the Breton" d'Aubigny, who married Maud de Senlis. Through the inheritance of Belvoir via Cecily Bigod, who inherited it from her grandmother Adeliza FitzOsulf, this branch became Lords of Belvoir

Pam
Thank you for pointing me in the right direction – as need to investigate further.
This is a major problem with so much conflicting information out there on the web and it has also found its way into Geni.

There is some excellent work, Reg, by medieval historian Katherine Keats-Rohan that has been helpful to me. There is a new-ish field of historiography called prosopography in which a group of academic historians work on mapping these family relationships and networks, so it's very closely aligned with genealogy. Finding K-R's essay on the chain of inheritance of Belvoir was eye-opening for me, because it helped me to see how inheritance of titles and properties link these families in a lineage in a different way than just the traditional patrilineal family names that genealogists usually trace. That's why I firmly believe in using the suffix field to indicate these land/title relationships. When I put "Heiress of ____" in a woman's suffix field, by that I mean that the land and title passed to her or through her, so she was an essential link in that chain. Similarly, the concept of a woman being a countess "in sup iure" (in her own right) and not just by being married to a count, etc., is a significant status that we need to better mark. I use the suffix field for that since it's essential in tracing these lineages. That's usually why you see titles jumping across surnames, because of the inheritance and passing of them through the women.

In another discussion thread, Hatte Blejer (who, by the way, is one of the new curators working on the Anglo-Norman project, so please welcome her!) wrote:

Hatte Anne Blejer
Today at 12:41 PM
I'd love a good guide to these French naming conventions. Do we have one already linked into our names projects?

Also, I personally hate having unsubstantiated relationships maintained Pam, but I guess you're saying leave and mark as unsubstantiated. Including extraneous children that come from no where like Alice's non-existent other brother?

And I responded:

Hatte, there's a difference between

(1) unsubstantiated children who clearly belong elsewhere--usually they have multiple parents and you can easily find through some quick research where they really belong. They end up in the wrong family through bad merges somewhere up the line, usually in marriages between parents that are incorrect,

and

(2) unsubstantiated children who are on the tree but do not seem to belong anywhere else. THESE are the ones that clearly came from *some* source--we just don't know where--and so out of respect for the people who put them on their tree, they are the ones who I would not delete but would mark as questionable and note that some substantiation is needed.

We are not in a final cutting and pruning stage to create definitive family trees--we are now in a grouping and sorting stage, where we try to make sure that all the profiles in Geni have a proper home. It's those in category (2) in the historical tree--the ones who seem to have come out of nowhere--that need more investigation. It may be that somewhere out there, there is documentation for them, but we just haven't found it yet.

I'll also tag Private who was part of that discussion as well.

To answer Hatte's other question:

Here is where we are discussing the conventions we've generally been using in this area of the tree: http://www.geni.com/projects/discussions/Coalition-for-the-Standard...

Tagging some other medieval researchers/mergers
Private User
Private User
Eldon Lester Clark
Erin Ishimoticha
Private User
Ric Dickinson, Geni Curator
Private User
Sharon Doubell
Private User
Private User
Flemming Allan Funch
Tobias Lukas Jungen
Grant David Meadors

I also included a link to this discussion in the http://www.geni.com/projects/Norman-families-of-Normandy-France-and... Norman Families of Normandy and England project, which is the umbrella project for several dozen sub-projects.

hello all,

i have, yet to be authenticated lineage, back to pre-1066 Normandy - Sir Jean Ricardus Chauvin (Coffyn/Coffin). i have only recently grasped the concept that Norman origin does suggest the possibility of language shift in surname.

i am undoubtedly an ultra-novice in terms of genealogy, but seek education and guidance with enthusiasm.

i can tell that there are many folks to whom if i listen closely, i can learn vast amounts about genealogy and hopefully put in practice as i continue my research.

i hope i am not barging in and crashing this party, and realize that my contributions have very limited value at this point, so i'll mostly lurk and take notes.

hi erica and hi pam!

-tristram

-vive la Normandie!

VIvie la Normandie!

I have hah! SUBSTANTIATED (but messy in geni, alas) lineages (plural!) back to the Norman Conquest. I gave a swipe at disambiguating mixed up d'Estoutevilles and Tallibois some months ago, probably worsened the situation, and ran off screaming to Mayflower-land, where at least the names are in proto-English.

So I'm a fellow lurker. One day I'll give it another shot.

Tristram, welcome, and we can definitely use your help not only with your Sir Chauvin but with all the Anglo-Normans--because, as you and Erica will soon find, you are likely related to all of them, as they were a very intermarried community of families that seemed to trade daughters back and forth like playing cards ("I'll give you an Adelais if you'll give me a Maud..."). And with the daughters often came great landholdings and titles. Such was the currency of wealth and power in 12th century England.

Tristram, I'm only on my second or third day of looking at the Anglo-Normans and YES, Pam is correct, we can definitely use your help! It's challenging and fascinating to try to sort out these families. I start on one family and find myself suddenly in the middle of another one, just as Pam mentioned, following the daughter trail.

I love the craziness and figuring it all out :). Bring it on!

@pam wilson and what better currency could there ever be? who says the gold standard will be revived?!

@Hatte I find myself similarly derailed as i add to my family tree. then i realize i am adding profiles that already exist, then prompted to merge them and then cannot because you must have a pro account. which i do not have.

if anyone is interested in going behind me feel free, i am adding some decent profile data for the George Jarvis Geer family

@tristram

You can request a merge even if your not pro. When in the tree, a number will appear telling you there's a match. Is there a merge I can help you with? I need a URL of at least one of the profiles.

@Tristram

Hello.
I've been looking for a Jarvis family for 40 years. In GA, possibly Florida and/or South Carolina.
Please drop me a note and tell me how we are related...
Best regards,
Michael Sortomme
michael@michaelsortomme.com

ok, how strange. thanks for you're offer, but i have just looked at the profiles and found that somehow they've been merged already.

the profile URL of the oldest ancestor i'm currently working with is;

Elijah Geer

thanks Marvin!

-tristram

Col. Piers Butler, of Duisk

Would a curator please fix the mother of Piers Butler of Duisk? He is one of 12 illegitimate children of Thomas Butler, 10th Earl of Ormonde. His mother is NOT Helen Barry, one of 3 wives of Thomas. The manager of this profile will not respond. Here's the info on The Peerage, one of many references to Piers being illegitimate. He is a prominent figure in the Butler family history. He is also included in the list of the 12 illegitimate children which I added under "Unknown Mistresses" as mother. Thanks. Mary

http://www.thepeerage.com/p36196.htm#i361956

Mary,

Improved but not perfect.

Col. Piers Butler, of Duisk

I'm having trouble making 12 mistresses today in geni -- are we OK with your "unknown mistresses" profile for now?

19 degrees here ....

Yes, I'd leave it like that for now. 10 of the 12 mistresses have been identifying by the Butler historian Theobald Blake Butler in his personal papers which are just about as good as you get along with Lord Patrick Butler, Baron Dunboyne. Theobald's papers are on microfilm at LDS and I plan to order that microfilm and see what I can find. The only two mothers who are not identified are the mothers of Piers Butler of Duisk and Ellis Butler. I don't like to deal with conjecture, but the rumor about the possible mother of Piers is so unbelievable that it is stranger than fiction - Queen Elizabeth I. Now that would be a great mystery that DNA could solve. Thanks once again, Erica. Mary

PS Theobald Blake Butler thinks my Butler family is probaby directly related to Piers Butler of Duisk. Thus my interest. I still have a few generations in the late 1700s to fill in the gaps. Going to Ireland in the spring to tour and research. My great-grandfather was born about 10 miles from Thomas Butler 10th Earls of Ormonde Carrick-on-Suir estate.

Here is the information from "The Butler Society" . I received permission to copy from John Butler, Lord Dunboyne:

Q408. BJ3#4

Piers Butler (d, 1601) of Duiske, Co. Kilkenny.

Clue: He was base son of Black Tom, 10th Earl of Ormond (d, 1614), but who was his mother? (per Dame Elizabeth Butler-Sloss, whose husband is an heir-general of this Piers).

Reply: Black Tom (b, c. 1531 and brought up a Protestant at Court) was in England until Nov. 1554. The Virgin Queen (b, 1533) is said to have called him her black husband. In any event, they became lifelong friends, as evidenced in moulded plaster and carven stone by her initials paired with his, the royal arms displayed with those of Butler and her portrait replicated in the motif of the carefully restored frieze, in the house he built at Carrick-on-Suir, Co. Tip; and in 1955 Blake Butler, who was no mean pincernalogist, wrote to me: "the story of their child existed in their lifetime and was repeated to this day (J.R.I.A.S. (1929), 41; Waterford Archaeol Soc., ii, 224; etc.)". This Piers (whose year of death was incorrectly given as 1603 in Carrigan, Ossory, ii, 297) must have been born before 1560 because he was granted a lease (of Duiske) as early as 2 Nov. 1580 (Irish Monastic Deeds, 271). As Blake Butler went on to observe, the extent to which Piers was favoured in his father's Will indicated his mother was someone of great importance; and Blake Butler managed to identify the mother of each of the dozen illegitimate children Black Tom is known to have had, except for two, viz: a daughter, Elles, and this Piers. Towards the end of 1553 the future Queen Elizabeth might have had the opportunity to conceive Piers. In the following Feb. she was said to be pregnant at Ashridge and, having gone to Woodstock, via Windsor, in May 1554, she spurned medical aid, with the brave words, "I am not minded to make any stranger privy to the state of my body, but commit it to God". Finally, after dining, 11 Dec. 1921, with Cora, widow of 9th Earl of Strafford (killed by a train, 1899), the 3rd Lord Oranmore & Browne troubled to note in his well-informed Journal that she then told him that her husband "was in waiting at Windsor when Holmes, the librarian, showed him a little packet of letters he had discovered in the library - they consisted of the charges made by Doctor, Midwife etc. for the confinement of Queen Elizabeth with letters from the Queen directing that the child should be sent to some place in Cornwall to be brought up with her two children, who were all to bear the name of Tudor - Holmes sent these letters to Queen Victoria to see and he told Lord Strafford that a few days afterwards he saw the Queen who told him that she had read the letters with great interest, but as they were of no historical interest (!) it would be better that they should be burnt. Accordingly she made him burn them in her presence" (quoted by kind permission of the present Lord Oranmore & Browne, via John Butler of Rotherfield, Sussex).

Now that is an amazing story Mary. Wow.

OMG! QE could be my ggg---grandmother!

Queen Elizabeth is at least my cousin, since her paternal grandmother was the daughter of the 7th Earl of Ormonde.

She's -- my Elizabeth I of England is your second cousin 13 times removed through the Dudleys.

So Mary,

What I'll do is make a little PDF file from your email above and attach it as a document to Piers profile. Do you have a date for the The Butler Society's quotation?

Erica, This story of Piers Butler of Duisk was originally printed in "The Journal of the Butler Society" Vol. 3, no.4, 1994.

These journals are not readily available in libraries, etc., but the Society board announced that all back issues have been scanned and will hopefully soon be available to the members. The Butler Society website is www.butler-soc.org. Membershp has a lot of information available for only $20 dues per year.

Correction: Margaret Butler, the daughter of Thomas Butler, 7th Earl of Ormonde was the great-grandmother of Queen Eliz I. She married William Boleyn and their son Thomas Boleyn was the father of Anne Boleyn.

some interesting stuff. any thoughts are appreciated. maybe im just seeing something that is not there.
1) Bohun/Marshall/Justingen/Humphrey Coat of Arms mystery
http://www.mediafire.com/view/31qnf7da57xy14h/Humphrey%20Marshall%2...
2) Normandie families ancient DNA connection to Swabian Kyburg/Hirshecker families?
http://www.mediafire.com/view/ctjbxftmy214v10/Normandie%20Connectio...

Pam, I would be happy to coordinate working with you on the de Warenne's and their related Lancastrian and Chesire lines. If the Warrens aren't right, no one will be in that area, because of the inter marriages.