Trying to reassign parents

Started by Graham Allen Ringwood on Tuesday, December 21, 2010

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12/21/2010 at 3:14 AM

I am trying to reassign this of the may William Ludlows parents according to the genealogy below but I get a message this will split the tree.

Families covered: Ludlow of Campdene, Ludlow of Hodnet, Ludlow of Moor House, Ludlow of Stokesay Castle

The family site starts its pedigree with the following Nicholas but notes uncertainty as to whether there were 2 Nicholases or just one. Provisionally we take the latter view.
Nicholas de Ludlow of Shrewsbury (a 1265, wool merchant)
m1. Marjery
1. Sir Laurence de Ludlow of Stokesay Castle, co. Salop (d 1294, wool merchant) the first mentioned by Visitation
m. Agnes Audley (dau of James, Lord Audley)
A. Sir William de Ludlow of Stokesay Castle (d 1316)
m. Matilda de Hodnet (d 1347, dau of Sir William de Hodnet)
i. Sir Laurence de Ludlow of Stokesay Castle & Hodnet (b 1300, d 1353)
m. Hawise D'ervassal (dau of Sir Humphrey D'ervassal)
Visitation inserts an additional generation here, a William.
a. Sir John de Ludlow of Stokesay Castle & Hodnet, Sheriff of Salop (b 1327, d 1382)
m. Joan de Sibbeton (dau/coheir of William de Sibbeton)
(1) Sir Richard de Ludlow of Stokesay Castle & Hodnet (b 1361, d unm 1390)
(2) Sir John de Ludlow of Stokesay Castle & Hodnet (b 1366, d 1398)
m. Isabel Lingen (dau of Sir Ralph Lingen or Lingayn of Wigmore by ?? Pembrugge)
(A) Sir William Ludlow of Stokesay Castle & Hodnet, Sheriff of Salop (b 1397, d 1474)
m. Maud
(i) Sir Richard Ludlow of Stokesay Castle & Hodnet, Sheriff of Salop (b 1430, d 1498)
The family site shows Sir Richard's wife as Alice Greville (shown as mother of John) but the Visitations identify her as Isabel Pembridge (shown as mother of John). We presume that he married twice.
m1/2. Alice Greville (dau of Sir William Greville)
m2/1. Isabel Pembridge (dau of Sir _ Pembridge)
Not known which lady was mother of John. One section of Visitation shows an additional generation, a John who by dau of Sir Robert Corbett was father of the following John, and then goes on to show the John who married Elizabeth Gray (sic) as father of Sir John who (by Isabella, dau of Sir Roger Vychan) was father of Anna, Elizabeth & Maria (dsp, m. Sir Richard Corbett). That is corrected in the other section of Visitation which supports what is given in the family site.
(a) Sir John Ludlow of Stokesay Castle & Hodnet
The shorter but apparently more reliable section on this family in the Visitation adds a note to report that there is doubt about the identify of Sir John's wife, suggesting that she may have been Elizaebth, dau of Sri Roger Kynaston of Hordley by the (only) sister of Lord Powis. We provisionally follow the normal identifification which shows her as ...
m. Elizabeth Grey (d 1466, dau of Sir Richard Grey, Lord Powis)
((1)) John Ludlow of Stokesay Castle & Hodnet (dsp)
m. Mary Corbet (dau of Robert Corbet, m2. Thomas Lacon of Willey)
((2)) Ann Ludlow (b 1480)
m. Thomas Vernon of Stokesay (Stocksey)
((3)) Alice Ludlow
m. (1493) Humphrey Vernon of Hodnet (d 1542)
The family site shows Humphrey & Maurice as of this generation. One section of Visitation (the one which confused the generation of the John who m. _ Corbet) shows both as sons of Sir John by Elizabeth Grey. However, the other section, which does not mention Humphrey, does show Moris as of this generation.
(ii) Humphrey Ludlow
m. Jane Vaughan (dau of Sir Griffith Vaughan)
(iii) Maurice (Moris) Ludlow of Stokesay Castle
m. Constance Griffith (dau of Sir Piers Griffith or Gruffith)
(a) Laurence Ludlow of Moor House, Salop
m. Anne Cressett (dau of Thomas Cressett of Upton)
((1)) Thomas Ludlow of Moor House
m. Katherine Farley (dsp, dau of Thomas Farley)
((2)) Morris Ludlow of Moor House
m1. Mary Cheyney (dau/heir of William Cheney of Cheney Longvill, relict of Henry Cressett of Holgatt)
m2. Elizabeth Powell (dau of Thomas Powell of the Park)
((3)) Rowland Ludlow
m. _ Eton (dau of Thomas Eton)
((A)) Thomas Ludlow
((4)) George Ludlow
((5)) Katheryn Ludlow
m. John Blayney of Herefordshire
((6)) Joan Ludlow
m. William Selman of Haulton (Harrington)
((7)) Jane Ludlow
m. Richard Benthall of Benthall
((8)) Elizaebth Ludlow
m. Roger Newport of Rushall (Rushock)
((9)) Ann Ludlow
m. William Hibbins of Weo
((10)) Margery Ludlow
m. (07.11.1545) Richard Bawldwyn of Dudebery (Baldwin of Diddlebury)
(b) William Ludlow of Stokesay
((1)) Humphrey Ludlow
m. Dorothy Vernon (dau of Thomas Vernon)
((A)) Elizabeth Ludlow
m. Humfry Hill of Hill Court
(c) Elizabeth Ludlow
m1. _ Pount of London
m2. Sir Lewes Orrell
m3. ??
(B) Alice Ludlow
m. Richard de la Bere
(C) Margery Ludlow
m. William Trussell
(D) Benedicta Ludlow
m. Sir Richard Vernon de Haddon (b 1391, d 1452)
(E) Isabel Ludlow possibly of this generation (1 later?)
m. Nicholas Fitzherbert of Norbury (d 19.11.1473)
(3) Thomas de Ludlow
b.+ other issue - Roger, William
ii. William de Ludlow (d 1340)
2. John de Ludlow of Campden, Gloucestershire (d 1294)
m. Isobel (Borrey?) (d 1325)
A. Bogo de Ludlow (b c1284. d 1326)
m. Agnes
i. William de Ludlow (d 1349)
a. Thomas de Ludlow of Campbdene (b 1344, d 22.10.1392)
m. Elizabeth
(1) Edward Ludlow (b 1371, d 1409)
(A) Margaret Ludlow
m. Baldwin Strange (d 1431)
(2) William Ludlow 'of Hill Deverill'
The family site ends one pedigree with William (d 1478) and starts another with William (b c1399, d 1478). Noting that the date of birth of the William on the second pedigree is after the date given for this William's father's death, we assume that this William was father of (rather than the same person as) ...
(A) William Ludlow of Hill Deverill, Wiltshire (b c1399, d 23.12.1478)
m. Margaret Rymer
3. Sir Thomas de Ludlow of Mitham in Surrey & Scrivelsby in Lincolnshire (d 1313, The King's Champion)
m. Joan Marmion (dau of Philip Marmion of Scrivelsby)
A. Sir Thomas de Ludlow of Scrivelsby (The King's Champion)
m. Catherine Stoke (d 12.05.1393)
i. Margaret Ludlow (b c1327, d c1415)
m. Sir John Dymoke (d 1381)
B. John de Ludlow (b c1290)
m2. Idonia

Main source(s): www.ludlowfamilytree.org with some support for the Stokesay line from Visitation (Shropshire. 1623, Ludlowe), Visitation (Shropshire, 1623, Ludlow of Stokesay)
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Private User
12/21/2010 at 7:34 PM

Graham,

Sorry I didn't catch this before.

In the profile where you're having trouble, can you post the links for the parents that seem most correct in Geni? Curators have tools to make this kind of light surgery possible.

Just be forewarned that sometimes it means we need to "supermerge" all around and *then* assign the best / most likely parents / spouses/ children.

12/22/2010 at 3:57 AM

The line of descent of the Hill Deverill branch of the Ludlow family is far from certain. The Ludlow family website probably has the best guesstimate http://www.ludlowfamilytree.org/. This is the Geni link
William de Ludlow, of Chipping Campden.

Thanks for the offer of a supermerge but it sounds dangerously destructive. I think it might be better to see if I can persuade the manager of the other branch, Scott David Hibbard, to let me have editing access. Then I can do the merges one by one.
So far, I have had no reply from Scott.

More generally, I think the aspiration for "One Big Tree" is frought with difficulties. The lines of descent of families in the middle ages are far from clear. The written evidence is sparse, contradictory and open to interpretation.

Private User
12/22/2010 at 4:02 AM

Very true! We have a couple of curators hard at work disambiguating and documenting through Projects and they welcome more efforts.

I'm going to tag one of them for her attention and feedback on this problem.

I'm pretty sure Scott Hibbard is off line / off geni.

Pam Wilson

Do you have a suggestion on the best way to proceed?

12/22/2010 at 5:43 AM

Graham, I have edit permission on scott's profiles. If you made a Ludlow project, I'd be happy to add any of scott's Ludlow and other related profiles. This would give you edit and merge permission on them.

12/22/2010 at 7:30 AM

Myrna Huthmacher
Private User
is a co-manager with Scott Hibbard
of William de Ludelowe, of Hill Deverill. Could you add Myrna as co-manager of all the predecessors managed by Scott?

12/22/2010 at 8:31 AM

Noah, Ludlow Merge project added
http://wiki.geni.com/index.php/Ludlow_Merge.

Thanks

12/22/2010 at 9:05 AM

Graham,
Noah was referring to the spanking NEW Projects feature, that is built into the Geni site itself. See: http://www.geni.com/projects

Those really-old Wiki projects have been superseded by these, and are much better. I will update that Wiki page to reflect this. Sorry for the inconvenience.

12/22/2010 at 11:31 AM

I've created the Ludlow Family project, which Graham is now collaborating on as well. If anyone else is interested, please join us!

http://www.geni.com/projects/Ludlow-Family

12/22/2010 at 2:39 PM

@Graham. Hello--I'm one of the medieval curators and will be glad to help you, but I need some links to the profiles in question to get started. If the chart above is the correct descendency you attest to, then please give me the link to your oldest generation (Nicholas de Ludlow of Shrewsbury?) and I will follow it down from there.

Can you please provide some source references for this family history in the About Me sections (if they are not already there)?

Also, since it's the holidays it may take me a few days or a week to work it all out, but please be patient and we can correspond by inbox message about questions.

Noah, can you add me as a project collaborator?

Thanks! Pam

12/22/2010 at 2:41 PM

PS And Graham, you really need to put names in where you have "Do Not Merge" as the name. That really presents a problem. I need to see full names and dates, etc. so I can make sure that the profiles match.

12/22/2010 at 2:58 PM

I would like to start at the top and make Master Profiles of each person as I can verify the information through your source(s).

Here is what I found for Laurence de Ludlow. I've made it a Master Profile This is excellent information in the About Me section but it needs a source citation.

Laurence de Ludlow, of Stokesay

Please note that we do not include Sir in the FIrst name field as a naming convention. Also, what do you recommend as the spelling of Ludlow--should be be consistent, or do we have have historical data that the spelling changed at a particular point? The main need is to at least include a consistent spelling that is searchable.

12/22/2010 at 3:00 PM

Pam, I've added you as a collaborator. Graham is doing a great job with this project so far!

Private User
12/22/2010 at 4:36 PM

Noah would you please add me to this project also. Thanks, Myrna

12/22/2010 at 4:44 PM

Okay, I've spent an hour and a half and I think I have all the major de Ludlows of Shropshire and Wiltshire down to where Graham can add them, and I also did most of the cleanup so there shouldn't be too many issues in those upper lines now.

Your William of WIltshire now only has one father, the provisional one who is William of Campden, Gloucestershire (b 1369), following the logic of the information provided in the ludlowfamilytree.org.

Please replace all the "Do not merge" names with real names, thanks.

Justin Swanström manages quite a few of those Shropshire profiles, so I'll tag him here. He and Myrna are also curators, so they can help as needed, Graham.

Let me know if you need any further assistance!

pam

12/22/2010 at 5:16 PM

I've added Myrna and Justin to the project.

12/22/2010 at 5:18 PM

OH, and I forgot to add that I created lots and lots of Master Profiles, at least up to the 1400s. Maybe Justin and/or Myrna can take over from here. Thanks for the excellent research information, Graham.

12/23/2010 at 1:09 AM

Wow!
Many thanks.

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