Bad sources

I cannot believe how bad the sources are on here -- there is so much incorrect information.

Norfolk's four children by his first wife died young; by his second wife, who died 30 Nov. 1558 and was buried in the Howard Chapel, Lambeth, he had two sons (Henry, Earl of Surrey, and Thomas, 1528?-1583, who was educated by Leland, and was created Viscount Howard of Bindon 13 Jan. 1558-9) and one daughter, Mary, who married Henry Fitzroy, Duke of Richmond, natural son of Henry VIII.

Stop using wikipedia all the time -- unless it actually has a citation at the end of the sentence saying where it's from -- and The Tudor Place is not 100% factual as he lists NO sources!! Also, personal trees are not good sources either as anyone can put someone who does not exist in their tree just to link them to a 'famous' person like millions of people do on here!!!

smile

I say this with absolutely not a trace of sarcasm: Can you provide sources for your information? Without citing your own sources, it will just create the same issue over again.

I agree that it's very frustrating to see personal trees used as sources. They have a tendency to keep propagating bad information. When I find them on profiles I manage, I try to confirm all of the information using legitimate sources and then provide better citations. Having said that, they can be helpful for getting a push in the right direction. And it does seem like the profile in question contains a mix of sources.

It would help if when sourcing the Peerage that the reference for lineages and titles that Burke's Peerage be used along with Visitation records - I have found the same thing and worse with my own line as the farther I travel up my tree that merges have either eliminated my original information/management and new parents/spouses/children are attached with no sources on these profiles either - basically no rhyme or reasoning to the affect - and I agree it is as if individuals are re-creating these lineages so that they reflect a relation. I am just saying - it would be nice to go through and source things up - I am trying as I am also trying to repair the tree. Maybe IF WE ALL piitch in with the curators compliance, not censorship - things can get cleaned up quite nicely, with the correct sourcing.

Thomas Howard, 3rd Duke of Norfolk was born in 1473.3 He was the son of Thomas Howard, 2nd Duke of Norfolk and Elizabeth Tylney. He married Lady Anne Plantagenet, daughter of Edward IV Plantagenet, King of England and Elizabeth Wydevill, on 4 February 1494 at Greenwich Palace, Greenwich, London, England.3 He married Lady Elizabeth Stafford, daughter of Edward Stafford, 3rd Duke of Buckingham and Lady Eleanor Percy, on 8 January 1512. He and Lady Elizabeth Stafford were divorced in 1533. He was also reported to have been married on 4 February 1495. He was also reported to have been married before 8 January 1512/13. He died on 25 August 1554 at Kenninghall, Norfolk, England. He was buried on 2 October 1554 at Framlingham, Suffolk, England.
Thomas Howard, 3rd Duke of Norfolk gained the title of Earl of Surrey. In 1547 he was attainted, and restored in 1553. He succeeded to the title of 3rd Duke of Norfolk in 1553.
Child of Thomas Howard, 3rd Duke of Norfolk and Lady Anne Plantagenet

* Thomas Howard b. c 1496, d. 1508

Children of Thomas Howard, 3rd Duke of Norfolk and Lady Elizabeth Stafford

* Lady Mary Howard b. bt 1512 - 1533, d. c 1555
* Henry Howard, Earl of Surrey+4 b. 1517, d. 21 Jan 1547
* Thomas Howard, 1st Viscount Howard of Bindon+ b. c 1520, d. 1582

Citations

Caroline Maubois, "re: Penancoet Family," e-mail message to Darryl Roger Lundy, 2 December 2008. Hereinafter cited as "re: Penancoet Family."
Alison Weir, Britain's Royal Family: A Complete Genealogy (London, U.K.: The Bodley Head, 1999), page 139. Hereinafter cited as Britain's Royal Family.
G.E. Cokayne; with Vicary Gibbs, H.A. Doubleday, Geoffrey H. White, Duncan Warrand and Lord Howard de Walden, editors, The Complete Peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain and the United Kingdom, Extant, Extinct or Dormant, new ed., 13 volumes in 14 (1910-1959; reprint in 6 volumes, Gloucester, U.K.: Alan Sutton Publishing, 2000), volume I, page 253. Hereinafter cited as The Complete Peerage.

And more examples:

Sir Thomas Howard, 3rd Duke of Norfolk, Earl of Surrey1,2,3
M, b. 1473, d. 25 August 1554
Sir Thomas Howard, 3rd Duke of Norfolk, Earl of Surrey|b. 1473 d. 25 Aug 1554
Father Sir Thomas Howard, Earl Marshal of England, 2nd Duke Norfolk, Sheriff of Norfolk & Suffolk b. 1443, d. 21 May 1524
Mother Elizabeth Tilney b. c 1445, d. 4 Apr 1497
Sir Thomas Howard, 3rd Duke of Norfolk, Earl of Surrey Lord Howard, Earl Marshal of England, Lord High Admiral, Captain of the Vanguard, Chief Governor of Ireland, Lord High Treasurer.2 He was born in 1473. He married Anne Plantagenet, daughter of Edward IV Plantagenet, King of England, 4th Duke of York, 7th Earl of March, 9th Earl of Ulster and Elizabeth Widville, on 4 February 1495 at Greenwich, Kent, England; They had 4 children (including 1 son, Thomas).3 Sir Thomas Howard, 3rd Duke of Norfolk, Earl of Surrey married Elizabeth Stafford, daughter of Sir Edward Stafford, 3rd Duke Buckingham, 8th Earl of Stafford and Eleanor Percy, before 8 January 1513; They had 2 sons (Henry & Thomas) and 3 daughters (Muriel, Catherine, & Mary).4,5,3 Sir Thomas Howard, 3rd Duke of Norfolk, Earl of Surrey died on 25 August 1554 at Kenninghall, Norfolk, England.4,3 He was buried on 2 October 1554 at Framlingham, Norfolk, England; Age 80.4,3
Family 1
Anne Plantagenet b. 2 Nov 1475, d. 23 Nov 1511
Family 2
Elizabeth Stafford b. c 1497, d. 30 Nov 1558
Children

* Mary Howard6,7,3 d. 9 Dec 1557
* Sir Henry Howard, Earl of Surrey+ b. bt 1516 - 1518, d. 19 Jan 1547
* Sir Thomas Howard, 1st Viscount Howard of Bindon+8 b. c 1520, d. 28 Jan 1582

Citations

1. [S4676] Unknown author, Burke's Peerage (1963), p. lxiv, 1806.
2. [S11568] The Complete Peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain, and the United Kingdom, by George Edward Cokayne, Vol. IX, p. 615-620.
3. [S5] Douglas Richardson, Plantagenet Ancestry, p. 800-801.
4. [S11568] The Complete Peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain, and the United Kingdom, by George Edward Cokayne, Vol. IX, p. 619.
5. [S5] Douglas Richardson, Plantagenet Ancestry, p. 676.
6. [S11568] The Complete Peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain, and the United Kingdom, by George Edward Cokayne, Vol. X, p. 830.
7. [S5] Douglas Richardson, Plantagenet Ancestry, p. 728-730.
8. [S11568] The Complete Peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain, and the United Kingdom, by George Edward Cokayne, Vol. VI, p. 583-584.

I suggest someone contact the curator of Thomas Howard, 3rd Duke of Norfolk offering to update the "about me" and include the validated sources referenced. Of course "The Complete Peerage" is a better source. :) I do find them incomplete on cadet lines and expand on out to Visitations in that event. But for the Howards? Yah, shouldn't be so hard. :) :)

Erica - Burke's Peerage IS the better source :)