Trojan connection in Prose Edda

Started by Martin Budden on Monday, March 21, 2011

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3/21/2011 at 7:26 PM

Hi everyone,

What do you think of Snorri's assertion in the Prose Edda that Wodin etc came from Troy?

Martin

3/24/2011 at 4:01 AM

That he was trying to find some excuse to write about Odin without being condemned by the Christian church.

Both he and some other saga-literature documents have rather long lineages of the first Norwegian king (Harald Hårfagre), in one case going straight back to Adam.

I've let the lineage-as-written stand, but ruthlessly deleted the attempts to link the "Trojan vikings" to specific, named historical Trojan kings - there simply isn't a basis in the saga literature to know that this was what Snorre intended; we should not add modern amateurs' guesses on top of Snorre's historical imagination.

3/24/2011 at 3:28 PM

I suspect our ancestors knew their ancestors must have come from some place in the ancient world. They knew it wasn't the Romans, so it must have been the Trojans. And, if you don't have modern linguistics to contradict you, Aesir does seem like it could be related to Asia (Asia Minor). So, after you have your bearings using the most modern and up to date history (circa 1000), it's just a short step to being sure Odin came from Troy.

Harald - don't some of those "modern amateurs' guesses" go back to the 1400s at least??

3/24/2011 at 5:18 PM

have said it before,and say it again.

studdy Snorre`s sagas of the king`s,and the old text of Edda.
and go thru some of the old text that you find in liberary`s and online.

when you then follow his tracks back,thru europe and down over the sea were he is said to have traveld.
you will find your self in the land,of the old world ; Libya.
then look at the old drawings and maps,you get two towns that don`t have these names today.

the name ; Asiragar
even old text`s and folklore from Libya,give some clues.
the town`s are found at the Sea Sidra.
just south of Sidra,the town Aasidra is stil today.
to the left of Aasidra,it was a ancient town/place named Aasidragar.

try to show that i`m wrong.
the people at the Oldsaks samling museeum in Oslo,could not !

for some weird reason,the prose Edda.
is never given out complitly,this should realy have been questioned more.
becose when you look in the books,it says : chosen text.
why not all of it ?

but on the other hand.
to create a myth,you need some thrute behind it to base it on.
and if the myth turn out to be more than a myth,all history is wrong.
so better to keep our myth`s as they are.

3/24/2011 at 11:50 PM

Justin, Heyerdahl is the most prominent of the recent hypothesizers in the area - we've talked about him before. For events back to the 1400s, we've got pretty solid written records for a lot of stuff (church records, contemporary histories). It's the centuries before 1000 that are a black hole where it comes to contemporary written sources - all that's come out of the Nordics from those centuries is oral tradition and a few runestones.

3/25/2011 at 6:35 AM

I was thinking something different, Harald. I had an idea that some of the speculations that trace Odin back to specific Trojan kings were late medieval. I'm probably wrong about that. When I searched for something last night all I found are things like the Monymusk Text that trace back *to* Odin, and even that is early 17th century.

3/26/2011 at 3:00 AM

My favourite speculation (because it's so clear, it's so widely cited, and it's online) is "How Norway was settled" (Fundinn Noregr), http://www.heimskringla.no/wiki/Hversu_Noregr_bygg%C3%B0ist - this document claims to have been written in 1387, and gives the following lineage from Adam to Odin (with a few "that we call" tweak that I suspect were added where things didn't really match):

Adam skapte Gud først av alle menn.
Seth var sønnen hans,
hans sønn Enos
hans sønn Kaynan,
hans sønn Malaleel,
hans sønn Phareth,
hans sønn Enoch,
hans sønn Mathusalem den gamle,
hans sønn Lamech, -- det var i den første tidsalder, --
hans sønn var Noi, som bygde arken,
hans sønn Japhet,
hans sønn Japhan,
hans sønn Zechim,
hans sønn Ciprus,
hans sønn Cretus eller Celius,
hans sønn Saturnus på Kreta,
hans sønn Jupiter,
hans sønn Darius,
hans sønn Erichonius,
hans sønn Troeg,
hans sønn Ilus,
hans sønn, Lamidon,
hans sønn, Priamus storkonge.
Munnon eller Mennon het kongen over Troja. Han var gift med Troanam, datter til kong Priami:
sønnen hans het Tror, som vi kaller Tor,
hans sønn var Loriche, som vi kaller Hlorride,
hans sønn Eredei, som vi kaller Einride,
hans sønn Vingithor,
han sønn Vinginer,
hans sønn Modi,
hans sønn Mågi, som vi kaller Magni,
hans sønn Seseph,
hans sønn Beduigg,
hans sønn Atri,
hans sønn Trinan,
hans sønn Heremoth, som vi kaller Hermod,
hans sønn Skjaldin, som vi kaller Skjøld,
hans sønn Beaf, som vi kaller Bjar,
hans sønn Godolf,
hans sønn Burri, som vi kaller Finn,
hans sønn Frjalaf, som vi kaller Bors,
hans sønn Voden, som vi kaller Odin. Han var Tyrkerkonge

(the last line translates to "He was a king in Turkey").

Matching specific names to specific gods in that list is highly suspect - for instance, Edda poetry uses Vingthor (great-grandson of Thor in this list) as another name for Thor, and the son of Odin who was the ancestor of the Danish kings (and next in the list) is named Skjold, a name that also occurs in the middle of this list.

So yes, we have a great speculative tradition!

3/26/2011 at 2:11 PM

Thanks, Harald. I knew you’d know. I’m waiting for the Viktor Rydberg fans to discover Geni and start merging all the different gods and heroes ;) I have a copy of Our Fathers’ Godsaga (William Reeves, translator). I’m considering carrying it in the store, but I’d be distressed to see anyone making genealogical conclusions from it.

http://www.amazon.com/Our-Fathers-Godsaga-Retold-Young/dp/059529978...

3/27/2011 at 7:47 AM

Hello, if you want to know about Odin, read the Ynglinge Saga
http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/heim/02ynglga.htm

The saga tells us about Odin who resided in the area of the river Don
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_River_(Russia)

in the north-eastern corner of the Black Sea. I have never heard or read anything about him and Troy.

Private User
3/27/2011 at 2:36 PM

I read all of yours writings about Odin etc. Thereafter I took a look in a old book from 1849 "Samlede afhandlinger" / "Collected essays" written by Peter Andreas Munch (b. 1810-d.1863) a Norwegian scienceman. He did research Odin etc. long before we were born. And found whwere he came from. To all of you: Why shall we once again now do the same work with Odin as he did ? And also; this Odin-query many other sciencemen has done maybe the last 1000 years.

6/12/2011 at 9:56 AM

The Norse, the Franks and the Romans all independantly state that they came from Troy. The Thracians of Troy were seafaring people.

http://www.osterholm.info/swedes.html

Genetic Research is helping sort all this out.

R1a - Originally thought to have originated in the Caucasus region around the Black Sea, new research is indicating that this type may have originated in the region around Khazakstan, possibly even in India or Pakistan. R1a spread into Central Asia and migrated across the Russian Steppes into Eastern Europe where it reaches high levels in Hungary, Poland, the Ukraine and the Slavic regions (the peoples genetically closest to Norwegians). R1a is characterized by the mutations SRY10831.2- (negative as opposed to positive) and M17+. M17 is what most academic studies have tested for to determine R1a - it actually categorizes R1a1, which seems to encompass all R1a (I have yet to see a single "R1a" that was SRY10831.2- and also M17-. Anyone SRY10831.2- seems to be universally M17+, in other words all R1a are also R1a1). For this reason you will many times see R1a and R1a1 used interchangably within the literature.

One particular group of Y-STR values within R1a shows matches in Central Asia, around the Siberian Altai and Uyghur province of Western China. The recent find of Caucasian mummies in the Takla Makan deserts of the Uyghur province prove that a race of red and blond haired people with Scandinavian features, over 6' tall, once lived in this region. R1a is found at very high percentages in Western Norway, where it reaches frequencies between 23% to 30%. Some researchers believe the Icelandic Sagas, which describe a migration of a population from Asia beyond the Ural mountains, to Norway, may actually be based in fact. Thor Heyerdahl, of Kon Tiki fame, spent the remaining years of his life attempting to prove this theory -- and DNA evidence is seeming to prove him right. The Swedes have long believed this legend, and the emergence of a specific type of Scandinavian R1a with a Central Asian motif seems to support this account.

6/12/2011 at 2:54 PM

Troy was a reasonably small city - Wikipedia claims that Troy VII (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy_VII) had a population of about 5000 people - a metropolis by the standards of 1000 BC. I think a lot of groups in various countries liked to link to the Troy legend; Homer was a good writer.

The distance between the Tarim basin and Troy (4500 km) is larger than the distance between Troy and Oslo, Norway (2400 km), according to Google Maps. It's going to be very hard to trace the routes of those influences.

6/12/2011 at 3:15 PM

"It's going to be very hard to trace the routes of those influences." Who said this was easy?

http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/

6/13/2011 at 2:26 PM

This work from Maciamo might be useful:

All haplogroups I are the indigenous people of Europe, the direct descendants of Cro-Magnon (it isn't R1b as previously thought). This is why I is found everywhere in Europe at low frequencies, except I1 which remained strong in Germanic countries. A pocket of I2a2 survived around Croatia because of it's relative isolation, outside the Danubian corridor used by new waves of immigrants/invaders. I2a1 survived at high frequency in Sardinia simply because it is the most isolated place in Europe.

Ancient Greeks

Pelasgians (pre-Minoan Greeks, or Helladic Greeks) belonged to an admixture of I, E-V13, T and G2a. E-V13 and T probably arrived in Greece from the Levant (and ultimately from Egypt, hence the small percentage of T) in the early Neolithic, 8,500 years ago. G2a came from the Caucasus approximately 6,000 years ago as herders of sheep and goats (and early miners ?).

Minoan Greeks migrated from Mesopotamia via Anatolia. They were mostly J2 people, but probably had some E too.

Mycenaean Greeks arrived around 3,600 years ago from the Ukrainian steppes. They were an Indo-European people belonging to R1a. So were the Macedonians and the Thracians (hence the higher density of R1a in northern Greece).

Greece was invaded by the Dorians around 1200 BCE. Nobody knows who they were or where they came from, but the high percentage of R1b in the regions where they settled (Peloponese, Crete) strongly suggest that they were R1b people. The events are linked to the Sea Peoples (see below), who were probably R1b people from the north-east of the Black Sea, or early Celts from central Europe.

Greek historians sometimes mention that the Dorians were the descendants of the Trojans who came back to avenge their ancestors. The Trojans were an Indo-European people related to the R1b Hittites (see below). This would also explain why there is about the same percentage of R1b and R1a in modern Greece. Each correspond to a different wave of Indo-European invader. They only make up 12% of the population (each) because the Neolithic farmers (especially E and J2) were already well-established and numerous by that time.

Ancient Anatolians

Southern Anatolia was colonised early by Neolithic farmers from the Near East (E + J2).

The Indo-European invasions brought the Hittites (1750 BCE), the Lydians and Lycians (1450 BCE) and the Proto-Armenians (1200 BCE). All were probably R1b, considering the high percentage of R1b in the regions they settled. R1b Indo-Europeans are thought to have originated on the north-eastern shores of the Black Sea, just north of the Caucasus. They could have invaded northern Anatolia by crossing the Caucasus, sailing across the sea, or going around via the steppes through the Bosphorus.

Later R1b were possibly (part of) the Sea Peoples that ravaged the ancient Near Eastern civilizations, from Greece to Egypt. Their advance military technology and sea-based culture make of them very good candidates.

The Phrygians arrived in northern Anatolia after 1200 BCE, and were probably an offshoot from the Thracians (so R1a).

The Cimmerians are probably the last wave of migration (around 700 BCE) from the R1b homeland. They are said to have be expelled from Anatolia and moved to Europe, where they joined the other R1b people. Germanic and Celtic people both claim (partial) Cimmerian ancestry.

Romans, Celts and Germans

Celtic, Italic and Germanic people are all descended from the same R1b1b2 stock. They split north of the Alps.

The Italic branch went south and mixed with the Terramare people who were I2a, G2a and E-V13. Northern Italians have more Indo-European Celto-Italic blood, while southern Italian have more indigenous blood (the highest being Sardinia, then Basilicata).

The Germanic branch moved north and mixed with the indigenous I1 and I2b people, who had already mixed with R1a migrants from the Corded Ware (Battle Axe) culture. The new hybrid Germanic people retained the highest percentage of aboriginal haplogroup I.

Celtic people split in several groups : the Brythonic went to Britain and Ireland, the Gaulish to France, the Iberian to Spain and Portugal, and the Alpine remained around Austria, Switzerland, southern Germany, Eastern France and Belgium. The Iberian and Gaulish groups mixed with I2b, I2a and E people, the Alpine with I2b and E, and the Brythonic just with I2b people.

It is likely that the language of the aboriginal Europeans influenced the various Celtic, Italic and Germanic dialects. Germanic languages diverted the most from the original European R1b language because it assimilated a very large part of aborigines.

From about 700 BCE, the Etruscans settled around Tuscany and the Greeks in southern Italy. Etruscans probably came from Palestine and brought haplogroups J1, J2 and E with them. The Greeks in Italy were Doric and brought J2, E, G2a and probably more R1b (see above). The Romans progressively absorbed the Etruscans and Italian Greeks and mixed with them. By the time of Julius Caesar Roman citizens were probably composed of 45% of R1b, 20% of J, 15% of E, 15% of G2a and 5% of I2a.

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