birth of Rabbi Ephraim of Brody

Начал Private User Вторник, 22 Марта 2011

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Private User
22/3/2011 в 12:58 до полудня

Can anybody explain me how come Rabbi Ephraim was born in 1720 and his daughter was born in 1717

Private User
22/3/2011 в 5:00 до полудня

And his son was born in 1701.

I have looked at this before, but don't have edit access to the profile, and never did anything about it.

As I recall, R' Ephraim died c.1720, rather than was born in 1720. He died shortly before his daughter married the Besht. So she was born earlier than 1717. Probably more like 1700.

There have also been questions raised previously why R' Ephraim's son's matzeiva does not say he was a Cohen. See http://www.geni.com/discussions/78684

Private User
22/3/2011 в 6:20 до полудня

If he is really the son of the Shach then his sister was born around 1649 so I would assume he was born between 1650 to 1680. But since he is not mentioned anywhere as being a Cohen my theory is that the Shach was not his father but ratther the father of his wife!

Private User
23/3/2011 в 3:21 до полудня

שמעון
על פי ספר כתר כהונה (תודות רבנו הש"ך) לשבתי הכהן כץ היו 2 בנים ו-2 בנות. בעמוד 27 לספר נאמר כי שמות 2 חתניו היו מנחם (התחתן עם אסתר) ואהרון (שהתחתן עם טויבה).שמות בניו היו: הבכור משה והקטן מאיר.
בכל מקרה לא היה לו בן או חתן בשם אפרים ובכל הספר לא מוזכר השם הרב אפרים מברודי, כך שאפשר למחוק את השם הזה מתולדות הרב ש"ך.

Private User
23/3/2011 в 3:49 до полудня

מנחם

אז מי היו ההורים של הרב אפרים מברודי ?

דרישת שלום
דוד

Private User
23/3/2011 в 3:54 до полудня

And what is the source of the diagram at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal_Shem_Tov_family_tree which shows הרב אפרים מברודי as the son of שבתי הכהן כץ?

23/3/2011 в 4:51 до полудня

The diagram from Wikipedia that shows R' Ephaim as the son of the Shach my indeed be misleading. Shimon's theory that the Shach was R' Ephaim's wife's father is interesting.

Wikipedia took the diagram from:
Brim, M. S., "כתר שם טוב: אילן היוחסין ... של צאצאי ... הבעש"ט" "Keter Shem Tov: A family tree of the descendants of the Baal Shem Tov (I)" (Family tree of the descendants of the Baal Shem Tov), in Heichal Habesht 23, pp. 164-182

Most other sources mention that R' Ephraim is "possibly" a son of the Shach. eg.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Gershon_of_Kitov

http://www.davidicdynasty.org/susan_tree.pdf

http://www.gershon-lehrer.be/FmT/genmod/family.php?famid=F0337http://

23/3/2011 в 4:57 до полудня

Menachem, I changed Rabbi Efrayim of Brody birthday to circa 1675 to be in line with the information regarding his his R' Gershon whose Yahrzeit is Adar 25th.

http://judaismonline.org.uk/famous-rabbis-yahrtzeits/adar/

25 Adar - Rav Gershon Kitover, brother-in-law of the Baal Shem Tov (1696-1761).
His father, Efrayim, was a Rav and Av Beis Din in one of the four batei din in Brody, Poland.

Private User
23/3/2011 в 4:59 до полудня

לא רק זאת
הרי היחושל הבעש"ט לרש"י הוא משום אגדה אך מנגד היחוס של אשתו של הבעש"ט לרש"י היא סיפור המופיע פה ושם
אני הבנתי עד כה שקשר זה נוצר מכך שרבי אפרים מברודי וצאצאיו הם צאצאיו של הרמ"א
בהעדר קשר שכזה כל העץ המשפחתי הזה קורס כמגדל קלפים

Private User
23/3/2011 в 1:59 после полудня

Malka: You say that: "Shimon's theory that the Shach was R' Ephaim's wife's father is interesting."

But note that Menachem's post above says from his source regarding the Shach: "לא היה לו בן או חתן בשם אפרים"

Translated: R' Ephraim was neither the son nor the son-in-law of the Shach.

Private User
23/3/2011 в 11:56 после полудня

Dear David
Assuming there is a connection between the Shach and Rw Ephraim we all aggree that it is very unlikely they were father and son since Kehuna is a most important and revered quality that cannot be "invented" or "make dissapear"
Then the connection is probably through a female descendant
The Besht wife was born around 1700and according to the GENI tree is suppossed to be the Shach grandaughter But the are 80 years apart much more than 2 generations.
My theory is that somehow they are connected but I really do not know how

Private User
24/3/2011 в 1:27 до полудня

Yes I think we are all looking for an alternative to the non-Cohen R' Ephraim being a male line descendant of the Cohen Shach.

24/3/2011 в 3:55 до полудня

Is it possible that R' Gershon and his father were ostracized for following the Baal Shem Tov----his father R' Ephraim who made the match had died, and so both were left of sefer approbations etc, and thus the complication in finding their ancestors, except for the indirect hint of the connection to the SHaCH's family?

R'Gershon Kitover was born in Dubno, and the Meir ben Moses Ashenazi, the father of the SHaCH died in Dubno. So, there very likely could have been a non-Cohen connection.

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