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About Alice de Venables

  • 'Full text of "Miscellanea Palatina: consisting of genealogical essays illustrative of Cheshire Domesday roll, compiled from original authorities"
  • http://www.archive.org/stream/miscellaneapalat00orme/miscellaneapalat00orme_djvu.txt
  • 'Miscellanea Palatina: consisting of genealogical essays illustrative of Cheshire Domesday roll, compiled from original authorities
  • http://www.archive.org/details/miscellaneapalat00orme
  • http://www.archive.org/stream/miscellaneapalat00orme#page/n190/mode/1up
  • VI. SIR JOHN ARDERNE of ALDFORD, ALDERLY, ALVANLEY, and ELFORD, Knight, son and heir of Sir Peter and Margery, was born 1266, and contracted as above.
  • On July 1, 1308, 1 Ed. II,2 he was appointed a Commissioner of Array for the county of Chester, with Hugh Venables, and had the leading of the levies against Bruce as far as Carlisle. In the same year he made a settlement of the manors of Aldford, Elford, and Alderley, in contracting for marriage of his eldest son and heir apparent, 'John, with Alice, daughter of this Hugh, Baron of Kinderton, covenanting to endow her with Alvanley. This manor was granted by him to them ; and in 1 Ed. II, Sir Hugh Venables, guardian of John, his son and heir, and Alice, wife of that John', constituted his brother William his attorney for taking seisin of Alvanley.
  • Margaret his wife, according to official records, and the direct evidences of the Cheshire Domesday Roll as cited, was daughter of Griffin, or Gruffydd ap Madog, the last Prince of Powys-Vadog, Lord of Bromfield and the Castle of Dinas Bran, near Llangollen, and a warlike ally of the Earls of Chester. His father, Madog, was the founder of Valle Crucis Abbey, and his wife, Emma, daughter of Henry Lord Audley, the founder of Hilton Abbey. For other particulars of her princely ancestors, Yorke's Royal Tribes, and Dugdale's Baronage, may be severally consulted.5 Three of her five brothers died issueless, two being said to have perished, when infants, in the Dee above Aldford. Their alleged murders were bitterly revenged by the descendant of the third, Owen Glendower.
  • The issue of this marriage were, 'Sir John Arderne', and Peter
  • http://www.archive.org/stream/miscellaneapalat00orme#page/n192/mode/1up
  • Arderne, of Over Alderley;1 Maud, wife of John Legh, of Booths,2 and other daughters, who had settlements of land. In this generation, according to a contemporary Roll, the arms were temporarily varied to gules, crusule, or, and a chief of the second,3 instead of the three crosslets and the chief.
  • ' VII. JOHN ARDERNE, afterwards knighted, and son and heir of Sir John and Margaret, was a minor in, 1317, 2 Ed. II, when Prince Edward presented to Aldford Church, as in his right, and he is named as Lord of Elford in the returns of 9 Ed. II. In 1324, 17 Ed. II, he was one of the knights summoned from Staffordshire to attend the Great Council at Westminster, and in the following year was a Commissioner of Array for Cheshire. In 1327 he presented to Mobberly, in right of his ward, Ralph de Modburlegh, a military tenant of Aldford ; and as Lord of Aldford, granted that ward's marriage, in 1329, to John de Pulford.4
  • ' On the death of this Sir John de Arderne, the division of the
    • 1 This younger branch of Arderne is as inaccurately given in Vincent's Collections (120 Coll. Arms) as the parent line itself is, to which parent line a representation of this junior branch returned, as follows : —
  • Peter, son and heir of Peter de Arderne of Alderley, above mentioned, had a son, who died S. P., and two daughters, Christiana and Margaret. (Abstracts, Harl. MS. 2074, 136.)
  • Christiana, wife of John Fitton of Bolyn, died S. P., leaving her sister Margaret, wife of Richard de Wever, her heir. (Leycester Hist. Chesh. i, 400.)
  • Edward de Wever, grandson of Richard and Margaret, had issue Edward (Inquisition p.m., 13 Henry VI), whose widow Elizabeth is found by Inquisition p.m. 1 Henry VII, to have had issue Elizabeth, w. of Sir John Done, daughter and heiress. This lady was previously wife of John Stanley, from which marriage Stanley of Aklerley inherits Alderly and Wever. Her Inquisition p.m. was taken 4 Henry VII, in which year she died, and through this second marriage the Ardernes of Alvanley (as heirs of Done of Ulkinton) are co-heirs of her and of Arderne of Alderley, along with Stanley of Alderley, who descended from her first marriage. See Alvanley, Wever, and Alderley, in Hist. Chesh.
  • http://www.archive.org/stream/miscellaneapalat00orme#page/n194/mode/1up
  • ' family into the two lines of Alvanley and Aldford followed, and the discrepancies of genealogies are as follows:---
  • The Visitation of 1566 gives to this Sir John four sons ; Walter, S. P. (an error for Walkelyn), Thomas, S. P., Sir John, third son and heir, and Charles, and is followed in Bridges's Peerage.
  • Vincent (MS. 120, Coll. Arms) divides this Sir John into two generations (8 Ed. Ill, and 40 Ed. Ill), giving to his second Sir John two wives, Jane de Stokeport, S. P., and Ellena Wastneys, with issue, by Ellena, Walkelyn, Thomas of Aldford, Sir John (as ancestor of Alvanley), and Margaret, all given as legitimate.
  • A Modern Entry in the College of Arms follows Vincent, assigning 'Alice Venables as wife to the first Sir John' of Vincent's inaccurate arrangement.1
  • In compiling the History of Cheshire, the facts of the Alvanley line descending from Peter de Arderne, legitimate heir of 'Sir John and Alice Venables', and of Thomas A. of Aldford and his brother Walkelyn being illegitimate, were discovered and brought forward;2 but evidence had not been then obtained for showing 'Alice Venables, Jane de Stokeport, and Ellen Wastneys, to have been all successive wives of one Sir John de Arderne' ; of the one, namely, now spoken of, who was son of Sir John Arderne, husband of Margaret of Bromfield.
  • This may be proved as follows :
  • By Inq. p.m., Dec. 23, 23 Ed. Ill, 1349,3 it was found that 'John de Arden', Chev., and Ellen his wife, held no lands in the Counties of Chester or Flint at their deaths, except for life, by fine levied in Cheshire : that after their deaths, all their lands therein reverted to Thomas, son of said Ellen, and heirs male of his body, as by said fine ; and that Peter de Arden, son of 'John' aforesaid, is his next heir in blood, and aged upwards of twenty-four years. An endorsement before the Justiciary orders the Eschaetor to remove his hands from the lands, as Thomas was "purchasour" (acquirer) by licence.
  • In fines relating to N. Alderley, 20 Ed. Ill, and Aldford, 23 Ed. Ill, the same description is used as to 'Sir John Arderne', Ellen his wife, and Thomas and Walkelyn, sons of Ellen.4 She had become his wife in or before 23 Ed. Ill, when both presented jointly to the Rectory of Aldford.5
  • http://www.archive.org/stream/miscellaneapalat00orme#page/n196/mode/1up
  • ' The three wives, and the issue of Sir John Arderne, were as follows : —
  • ' I. Alice, daughter of Sir Hugh Venables, of Kinderton, contracted wife in 1 Ed. II, 1307-8, as by the settlements of Alvanley beforementioned.
    • 1. John Arderne, eldest son and heir apparent by this marriage, was unavoidably, though inaccurately, transferred by Vincent to the third wife, as the second was childless, and this first was unknown to him. This John was born before 4 Ed. Ill, 1330,1 as his father then occurs as John Arderne, Senior, in a fine along with his second wife Joan, daughter of Sir Richard de Stokeport, previously wife of Sir Nicolas de Eton, and his widow in 1327.2 In an entail of N. Alderley, he occurs as " Johannes filius Johannis de Arderne Militis," followed by his younger brother " Petrus frater predicti Johannis filii Johannis."3 In 1332 he occurs again in divorce proceedings with reference to his contracted marriage with Cicely de Eton, daughter of his stepmother Joan before mentioned, both being under marriageable years, but both old enough to be described as protesting against it.4 The words of the fine of 4 Ed. Ill, imply the existence of John Arderne, Junior, within the period of Sir John's second marriage ; but he could not be issue by that wife, as in 6 Edward III he was contracted to her daughter by her first husband.
    • 2. Peter de Arderne, the ancestor of the Alvanley line, cannot be doubted to be the " Peter, brother of John, son of John," in the Alderley settlement cited ; but decisive evidence is given by the Inq. p. m. 23 Ed. Ill before mentioned, finding him son and heir of Sir John expressly, and by his own claim of Alvanley in pleas at Chester, about 28 Ed. Ill, wherein he describes himself as son and heir of John (son of Sir John Arderne) and Alice Venables his wife. As Founder of the distinct Alvanley line, he occurs hereafter.
    • 3. Margaret Arderne was contracted wife of Nicolas de Eton, son and heir apparent of her father's second wife, in 4 Edw. III. and therefore clearly not the daughter of that lady by Sir John Arderne, both of whom were living, and as clearly not of the third wife. Her Marriage Contract is given by Watson, Warren, ii, 237.
    • http://www.archive.org/stream/miscellaneapalat00orme#page/n198/mode/1up
  • II. Joan de Stokeport, daughter of Sir Richard, the second wife, was wife of Sir Nicholas de Eton in 1320, and widow in 1326, and mother, by him, of Nicolas and Cecily de Stokeport, which Nicolas and Cecily were severally husband and contracted wife of Margaret and of John de Arderne before mentioned. She was wife of Sir John Arderne (as by fine) in 1330, and from tenor of other fines in which she does not occur, probably deceased in 1332, — in which last year Sir Nicolas de Eton, her son, released lands to Sir John Arderne solely, in which she had previously a joint interest.1
  • III. Ellena Wastneys, the third wife, is recognized as wife of Sir John Arderne in the Alderlegh fine of 20 Edw. Ill, and the Aldford fine 23 Edw. Ill, in the presentation to Aldford in same year, and the following Inquisition p. m., finding Thomas Arderne heir of Aldford by alienation under licence, and Peter Arderne, son and heir of the same Sir John in blood. The invariable description of Thomas, as son of Ellen, wife of Sir John, in all these documents, might prevent any confusion as to illegitimacy protected by settlements, but more decided evidence exists. Thomas Arderne presented to Aldford rectory in his own right Jan. 17, 1349,2 and of course was of age then, and was born in or before 1328, and two years after this date, as shewn by fine of 1330,3 Joan de Stokeporte, the second Lady Arderne, who was not his mother, was living.
  • The Continuation of the illegitimate line, issue of 'Sir John Arderne' by Ellena Wastneys, ultimately the third Lady Arderne, and of the line of Stanley, which succeeded to these Ardernes at Aldford and Nether Alderley in Cheshire, and Elford in Staffordshire, will be found in the History of Cheshire, vol. iii, p. 301, and Shaw's Staffordshire, vol. i, p. 380.
  • The present discussion turns to the legitimate representatives of the family, the ARDERNES OF ALVANLEY.
  • http://www.archive.org/stream/miscellaneapalat00orme#page/n200/mode/1up
    • III.
    • ARDERNE OF ALVANLEY.
    • AFTER THE ALIENATION OF ALDFORD AND ELFORD.
    • VIII. PETER DE ARDERNE has been proved to have been surviving son and heir of 'Sir John Arderne' in 1349, by the direct evidence of his father's Inquisition post mortem. Eighteen years before this, in Feb. 5 Edward III, 1331, when he would be about six years old, he is named in his marriage covenant, an indenture between Mons. 'John de Arderne' et Adam de Bredbury et Cecile sa feme et Piers le filz de dit Mons. John et Cecile sa feme. By this deed Adam de Bredbury enfeoffs William de Stokeport, Chaplain, with half his manor of Romilegh and seven parts of Bredbury, to himself and the heirs male of his body, with remainder to Piers and Cecilia, and the heirs of their bodies, with other rent-charges on Bredbury, Romilegh, and lands in Macclesfield. 'John de Arderne also settles a rent-charge of forty marks from his manor of Aldford on the same parties.'

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 (Ormerod, III:198-200) Named as Ellen; (II: 85-6) Named as Alice.
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Alice de Venables's Timeline

1294
1294
England
1308
1308
Age 14
Frodsham, Cheshire, , England
1316
1316
Age 22
Drayton, Warwickshire, England, United Kingdom
1321
1321
Age 27
Aldford, Cheshire, England, United Kingdom
1323
1323
Age 29
Aldford Alvanley, Cheshire, England
1324
1324
Age 30
Aldford, Cheshire, England, United Kingdom
1327
1327
Age 33
Of, Aldford And Alvanley, Cheshire, England
1328
1328
Age 34
England
1330
1330
Age 34
Aldford, Cheshire, England, United Kingdom
1375
1375
Age 34
Aldford, Cheshire, England, United Kingdom