Bertha de Morvois (c.850 - 923) MP

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Nicknames: "Bertha", "Berthe", "Beatrice", "Béatrix", "de Morvais", "de Paris", "Bertha De Morvois"
Birthplace: Bohain-en-Vermandois, Aisne, Picardy, France
Death: Died in Vermandois, Normandy, France
Occupation: Countess of Vermandois, Prinsessa
Managed by: Sally Gene Cole
Last Updated:

About Bertha de Morvois

Bertha de Morvois (abt. 866 - June 15, 923), probably a fictitious person.

Her existence is uncertain. The wife of Héribert de Vermandois is unknown. She is listed as Bertha, daughter of Guerri de Morvois in a 12th-century chronicle from Waulsort abbey, that drew on epic literature to aggrandize its founder's lineage. (Peter Stewart in soc.genealogy.medieval, June 28, 2004)

There are several hypotheses about the wife of Héribert de Vermandois. See Christian Settipani, La prehistoire des Capetiens 481-987: Premiere Partie, p.222 n.218, and Tableau 8. Settipani tentatively suggests Heribert's wife was Lietgardis of Troyes. K. F. Werner in Die Nachkommen Karls des Grossen at V.3 in his Tafel does not identify anyone as Heribert's wife (nor in his discussion of Heribert in his "Untersuchungen zur Fruehzeit des franzoesischen Fuerstentums (9.-10. Jahrhundert): V." in Welt als Geschichte 20 (1960) pp.93-100). Cf. Medlands.

Bertha's parents have been variously suggested as:

  1. Rutpert IV of Womgau and Adelaide de Tours, OR
  2. Guerri I de Morvois and Eve d'Auxerre, OR
  3. Guerri I de Morvois and an unknown woman, OR
  4. Conrad d'Auxerre and Adélais de Tours.

http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/b/a/r/Wade-Barr/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-2446.html

  • Bertha de Morvois (daughter of Guerri de Morvois and Eva or Eve de Roussillon) 3500, 3501 was born Abt. 866 in France 3502, 3503, 3504, 3505, 3506, 3507, and died June 15, 923 in Soissons, Aisne, Picardie, France 3508, 3509, 3510.
  • She married Herbert de Senlis de Vermandois on Abt. 879 3511, son of Pepin de Peronne de Senlis and Ermgarde.
  • Children of Bertha de Morvois and Herbert de Senlis de Vermandois are:
  1. +Beatrice or Beatrix de Vermandois, b. 880, St-Quentin, Aisne, Picardie, France3512, 3513, 3514, 3515, 3516, 3517, 3518, 3519, d. 9313520, 3521, 3522, 3523.
  2. +Herbert de Vermandois, b. Abt. 885, Vermandois, East Picardy, France3524, 3525, 3526, 3527, 3528, 3529, 3530, 3531, 3532, d. February 23, 942/43, St-Quentin, Aisne, Picardie, France3533, 3534, 3535, 3536, 3537, 3538, 3539, 3540.
  3. +Unknown de Vermandois, b. Abt. 900 3541, 3542, 3543, d. Aft. 943 3544, 3545. >She married Eldo or Odo or Udo von Wettarau on Bef. 918 4202

---------------------------------

Barn:

Heribert II de Vermandois (880 - 943) Beatrix de Vermandois (880 - 931) Sprota (adela) av Senlis (901 - ) Kunigunde de Vermandois (- 943)

Adele de Vermandois 

Sprota (Adela) av Senlis

-------------------- The mother of Sprote de Senlis (St.Liz), her name is unknown.

--------------------

  1. ID: I28881
  2. Name: of France
  3. Given Name: of France
  4. Prefix: Princess
  5. Sex: F
  6. Birth: ABT 0862 in France
  7. Ancestral File #: 9G81-C4
  8. _UID: 02348172DDBDD611BF694445535400000284 1
  9. Change Date: 1 Sep 2002 at 01:00:00

Marriage 1 Herbert I of Vermandois b: ABT 0848 in of Vermandois, Neustria

Children

  1. Has No Children Beatrice de Vermandois b: ABT 0880 in of Vermandois, Neustria
  2. Has Children de Vermandois b: ABT 0882 in of Vermandois, Neustria
  3. Has No Children Herbert II of Vermandois b: ABT 0884 in of Vermandois, Neustria

Sources:

  1. Title: #719 

-------------------- Name given by the Foundation for Medieval Genealogy: http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/NORTHERN%20FRANCE.htm#HeribertIdied900907

HERIBERT [I], son of PEPIN [Carolingian] Seigneur de Péronne et de St Quentin, Comte near Paris ([848/850]-murdered [900/6 Nov 907]) m [LIETGARDIS], daughter of --- (-27 May ----).

The name of the wife of Comte Héribert is not known. However, a "Comtesse Liedgardis", different from the daughter of Comte Héribert [II], is named who could have been his wife[1275]. If this is correct, the necrology of Reims which records the death "VI Kal Jun" of "Letgardis comitissa"[1276], may refer to the same person[1277].

According to the Histoire de Guise, Albert Comte de Vermandois constructed the abbey of Saint-Michel at Rochefort in 945 "d'accord avec la comtesse Hérésinde sa femme", while in 947 Hérésinde founded the nearby Benedictine convent of Bucilly[1278]. The source assumes that this refers to Albert Comte de Vermandois, but his supposed marriage to Hérésinde is not mentioned by Settipani[1279].

According to the introduction to the Cartulaire de l'abbaye de Bucilly, Bucilly was founded by "Gerberge, femme d'Albert I Comte de Vermandois" although it notes that "certains auteurs ont voulu faire remonter [sa foundation] à la libéralité de Hersinde femme d'Herbert Comte de Vermandois morte en 901"[1280].

No other reference has been found to Hérésinde being the wife of Comte Héribert ]I].

Comte Héribert [I] & his wife had four children:

1. HERIBERT [II] ([880]-23 Feb 943, bur Saint Quentin). None of the sources so far consulted states explicitly that Heribert [II] and his sister Beatrix were the children of Heribert [I] but this looks probable. He succeeded his father in [900/907] as Comte de Meaux, de Soissons et de Vermandois.

2. BEATRIX de Vermandois ([880/83]-after 26 Mar 931). None of the sources so far consulted state explicitly that Heribert [II] and his sister Beatrix were the children of Heribert [I] but this looks probable. Her birth date range is estimated from her eldest daughter giving birth to her own first child in [915]. m ([897]) as his second wife, ROBERT Marquis en Neustrie, son of ROBERT “le Fort” Marquis en Neustrie & his wife --- ([860]-killed in battle near Soissons 15 Jun 923). Comte de Paris 898. He was elected 22 Jun 922 as ROBERT I King of France.

3. [daughter [ADELA]. Jackman suggests[1285] that the wife of Graf Gebhard [Konradiner] was the daughter of Héribert [I] Comte de Vermandois, although this appears supported only by onomastic indications. The name of Graf Gebhard's wife is not given explicitly in the sources. However, an "Adela" is named in a name-list in the Reichenau memorial book dated [926/32] which appears to include members of the Konradiner family, Jackman suggesting that she is well placed in the list to be Graf Gebhard's wife[1286], although this is not the only possible interpretation of the text. m GEBHARD Graf im Ufgau, son of EBERHARD Graf in der Ortenau [Konradiner] & his wife Wiltrud --- (-after 15 Jan 947).]

4. [daughter [CUNIGUNDIS] ([890/900]-after 943). The Vermandois origin of Graf Udo's wife is suggested by the fact that Flodoard refers to the wife of "Uddone [frater Hermanno]" as amita of "Hugo [de Vermandois Archbishop of Reims]"[1287]. The name of Graf Udo's wife is not given explicitly in the sources. However, a "Cunegundis" is named in a name-list in the Reichenau memorial book dated [926/32] which appears to include members of the Konradiner family, Jackman suggesting that she is well placed in the list to be Graf Gebhard's wife[1288], although this is not the only possible interpretation of the text. Her birth date range is estimated from her estimated marriage date. m ([915]) UDO Graf in der Wetterau, son of GEBHARD Graf in der Wetterau [Konradiner] & his wife Hidda --- (-12 Dec 949).]

References:

[1270] Vita Hludowici Imperatoris, MGH SS II, p. 633. [1271] Settipani, C. and Kerrebrouck, P. van (1993) La préhistoire des Capétiens 481-987, 1ère partie, Mérovingiens, Carolingiens et Robertiens (Villeneuve d'Ascq), p. 220. [1272] Annales Vedastini 896, MGH SS II, p. 530. . [1273] Settipani (1993), p. 407. [1274] Nicholas, D. (1992) Medieval Flanders (Longman), p. 19. [1275] Depoin, J. 'Etudes préparatoires à l'histoire des familles palatines. III. Thibaud le Tricheur fut-il bâtard et mourut-il presque centenaire?', Revue des etudes historiques (1908), p. 595 and footnote 105, cited in Settipani (1993), p. 408. [1276] 'Obits mémorables tirés de nécrologes luxembourgeois, rémois et messins', Revue Mabillon VI (1910-1911), p. 274. [1277] Settipani (1993), p. 227 footnote 265. [1278] L´abbé Pécheur (1851) Histoire de la ville de Guise (Vervins), p. 47, citing "Charte de Raoul évêque de Laon, Lelong, N. Hist. du diocèse de Laon, p. 598". [1279] Settipani (1993), p. 236. [1280] Barthélemy, E. de (ed.) (1881) Cartulaire de l'abbaye de Bucilly, Introduction. [1281] Hugonis Floriacensis, Historia Francorum Senonensis, MGH SS IX, p. 366. [1282] WJ II.21, p. 58. [1283] Settipani (1993), p. 407. [1284] Werner, K. F. (1967) 'Die Nachkommen Karls des Großen bis um Jahr 1000 (1.-8. Generation)' Karl der Große, IV, p. 458, cited in Settipani (1993), p. 407. [1285] Jackman, D. C. (1997) Criticism and Critique, sidelights on the Konradiner (Oxford Unit for Prosopographical Research) pp. 36 and 38. [1286] Jackman (1997), p. 38. [1287] Flodoard 946, MGH SS III, p. 393. [1288] Jackman (1997), p. 38. ------------------------- More convincing proof is needed to show that she is the granddaughter of Girard II de Roussilon, as stated on Dutch Wikipedia: http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girard_II_van_Roussillon

"Girard was the son of Leuthard I de Paris and his wife Grimhilde. Girard's wife Bertha was the daughter of Hugh de Tours and Ava de Morvois. Girard and Bertha had a daughter Eva who married Wilderich I de Morvois (819-865). They had a granddaughter Bertha (862-97) that would have been married to Herbert I de Vermandois." ----------------------- From the German Wikipedia page on Bertha von Morvois: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertha_von_Morvois

Bertha von Morvois war eine Adelige aus der zweiten Hälfte des 9. Jahrhunderts. Dem Namen nach stammt sie aus dem Morvois (Pagus Mauripensis) um Pont-sur-Seine.

Von ihr wird gesagt, dass sie die Ehefrau des Grafen Heribert I. von Vermandois gewesen sei.[1] Allerdings sind die Angaben zur Ehefrau Heriberts in der Literatur umstritten:

Erich Brandenburg schreibt in „Die Nachkommen Karls des Großen“, dass Heriberts Ehefrau unbekannt sei Bei „mittelalter-genealogie“ (zu Heribert I. und Heribert II.) wird Adele von Meaux, Erbtochter des Grafen Theutbert, als Ehefrau genannt, allerdings ohne Quellenangabe. In den Europäischen Stammtafeln ist in Band II, 1984, Tafel 10 (Robertiner) als Ehefrau Königs Roberts II. von Frankreich eingetragen: Béatrix de Vermandois, † nach März 931, Tochter von Comte Heribert I de Vermandois (Karolinger) und Berthe (de Morvois); die übrigen Tafeln hierzu (Band I.1, 2005, Tafel 4 und Tafel 7 (Karolinger) sowie Tafel 8 (Konradiner)) vermerken keine Ehefrau Heriberts.

Sollte die Annahme zu ihrer Ehe korrekt sein (die Europäischen Stammtafeln machen sie an einer Stelle unter Vorbehalt, siehe unten), dann hatte sie mit Heribert eine Reihe von Kindern, durch die sie ins Zentrum der mitteleuropäischen Genealogie rückt:

1. Heribert II. (* wohl 880; † 23. Februar 943) 900/907 Graf von Meaux, Soissons und Vermandois, 907 Abt von Saint-Médard in Soissons, begraben in Saint-Quentin, ∞ vor 21. Mai 907 Adela, Tochter des Herzogs Robert von Neustrien (ab 922 als Robert I. König von Frankreich) (Kapetinger) 2. Beatrix (* wohl 886; † nach 26. März 931) ∞ um 895 Robert Herzog von Neustrien († 923), ab 922 als Robert I. König von Frankreich (Kapetinger) 3. Tochter ∞ (Gebhard Gf im Ufgau 940 (Konradiner)) † nach 15. Januar 947 4. Tochter ∞ Udo Graf in der Wetterau († 949) (Konradiner)

Fußnoten

1.↑ eine Webrecherche unter dem Stichwort Morvois, ergibt – ohne Quellenangabe – auch unterschiedliche Angaben darüber, wer ihre Eltern waren

In English:

Bertha de Morvois was a noblewoman from the second half of the ninth century. Nominally, she is from Morvois (Pagus Mauripensis) at Pont-sur-Seine.

It is said that she is the wife of Herbert I, Comte de Vermandois (a web investigation on this using the keyword Morvois shows no sources, and even different information about who was her parents). The details of her being the wife of Herbert given from literature are considered controversial:

1. Erich Brandenburg writes in his "Descendants of Charlemagne" that Herbert's wife is unknown. 2. "Medieval Genalogy" between Herbert I and Herbert II indicates that Adele Meaux, heiress of Graf Theutbert, is Herbert I's wife, but does not give a source. 3. In the European family trees, Volume II, of 1984, registered in Plate 10 (Robertians) that the wife of King Robert I of France, Beatrice de Vermandois (d. March, after 931), daughter of Comte de Vermandois Herbert I (Charlemagne) and Berthe (de Morvois), and other references (Volume I.1, 2005, Table 4 and Table 7 - Carolingian - and Table 8 - Conradines) do not consider her to be his wife.

If the assumption is correct for their marriage (as the European family trees seem to indicate), she had a number of children with Herbert, through which she moves to the center of Central European Genealogy:

1. Herbert II (probably 880, to 23 February 943) 900/907 Comte de Meaux, Soissons, et Vermandois, 907 Abbot of St-Medard in Soissons, buried in St-Quentin. Married before 21 May 907 to Adela, daughter of Duke Robert of Neustria (later in 922, Robert I King of France - Capetian) 2. Beatrix (probably 886, d. after 26 March 931), married in 895 to Robert Duke of Neustria (d. 923) from 922 was Robert I King of France (Capetian) 3. Daughter (married to Graf Gebhard von Ufgau of the Conradines in 940), d. after 15 January 947 4. Daughter (married Graf Udo of Wetterau of the Conradines) died 949. -------------------- Herbert I, Count of Vermandois From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He married Bertha de Morvois. They had the following: Herbert II of Vermandois (c. 880-943) Béatrice of Vermandois (c. 880-931), married King Robert I of France. Cunigunde of Vermandois (d. 943) Adele of Vermandois Berenger of Vermandois, Count of Bayeaux whose grandson was Conan I of Rennes.

-------------------- Bertha de Morvois (daughter of Guerri de Morvois and Eva or Eve de Roussillon)3500, 3501 was born Abt. 866 in France3502, 3503, 3504, 3505, 3506, 3507, and died June 15, 923 in Soissons, Aisne, Picardie, France3508, 3509, 3510. She married Herbert de Senlis de Vermandois on Abt. 8793511, son of Pepin de Peronne de Senlis and Ermgarde.

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Bertha de Morvois (Fictitious)'s Timeline

840
840
Bretagne,Brittany,,France
850
850
Bohain-en-Vermandois, Aisne, Picardy, France
880
880
Age 30
880
Age 30
923
June 15, 923
Age 73
Vermandois, Normandy, France
1991
November 6, 1991
Age 73
November 6, 1991
Age 73
SLAKE
November 6, 1991
Age 73
November 6, 1991
Age 73
November 6, 1991
Age 73
Salt Lake City Utah Temple, Salt Lake City, Salt Lake, Utah, USA