Guillaume "Talvas" de Bellême (de Bellêùe), comte de Ponthieu et d'Alencon (c.1090 - 1171) MP

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Nicknames: "Count of /Alencon/", "Guy. /D'Alençon/", "William III Talvas \ Baron William of /Despencer/", "Count of Alencon"
Birthplace: Alencon, Orne, France
Death: Died in England
Occupation: seigneur de Montgomery in Normandy and Count of Ponthieu.
Managed by: Margaret, (C)
Last Updated:

About Guillaume "Talvas" de Bellême (de Bellêùe), comte de Ponthieu et d'Alencon

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/NORTHERN FRANCE.htm

GUILLAUME [I] "Talvas" de Ponthieu, son of ROBERT de Montgommery "de Bellême" Sire d'Alençon, Comte de Ponthieu, Earl of Shrewsbury & his wife Agnès de Ponthieu (-30 Jun 1171). His parentage is given by Orderic Vitalis[870]. He succeeded his father [4 Mar 1106/1110][871] as Comte de Ponthieu. "Wilelmus comes Pontivi" confirmed the donation of the church of Saint-Léonard de Bellême to Marmoutier by charter dated to [1112/14][872]. Henry I King of England restored Comte Guillaume to his father's lands in Normandy in Jun 1119[873]. He resigned Ponthieu in [1126] in favour of his son Guy. "Gulielmus comes Pontivorum" donated property to the abbey of Saint-Sauveur-le-Vicomte for the souls of "his predecessors earl Roger and Mabel his wife, count Guy and Adda his wife, his father Robert de Belesmo and his mother Agnes and…Ela his wife and of their sons two of them called Robert and two William and two Enguerrand and Mabel his daughter" by charter dated 1127[874]. Robert of Torigny records that Henry II King of England granted "castrum Alenceium et Rocam Mabiriæ" to "Willermus Talavacius comes Sagiensis et filius eius Johannes et iterum Johannes nepos eius filius Guidonis primogeniti sui comitis Pontivi" in 1166[875]. Robert of Torigny records the death in 1171 of "Guillermus Talavercius comes Pontivi" and the succession of "Johannes nepos suus…ex Guidone primogenito suo"[876]. The Obituaire of Saint-Martin de Séez records the death 30 Jun of "Guillelmus Pontivorum comes"[877]. The necrology of the monastery of Ouche records the death "30 Jun" of "Willelmus comes Talevat"[878].

[m firstly ---. The name of Guillaume´s supposed first wife is not known. This first marriage is strongly suggested by the marriage date of Guillaume´s daughter Clémence. She is named in Jul 1128 with her son "Gaufrido primogenito" (see below). The addition of the word "primogenito" suggests that there was at least one other younger child at that date. This would place her marriage in late 1125 at the very latest. It is extremely unlikely, therefore, that she could have born from Guillaume´s marriage to Hélie de Bourgogne, the death of whose first husband is recorded in late Apr 1112. The other indication is the unlikelihood that Hélie de Bourgogne could have had eleven children by her second husband, considering her own estimated birth date.]

m [secondly] ([late 1112/1115]) as her second husband, HELIE de Bourgogne, widow of BERTRAND de Toulouse Count of Tripoli, daughter of EUDES I Duke of Burgundy [Capet] & his wife Sibylle de Bourgogne [Comté] ([1080]-28 Feb 1141). She is named by Orderic Vitalis, who also records her parentage, her two marriages and the names of her eldest sons by each marriage[879]. "Gulielmus comes Pontivorum" donated property to the abbey of Saint-Sauveur-le-Vicomte for the souls of "…Ela his wife…" by charter dated 1127[880]. "Guido comes Pontivi" donated property to Cîteaux with the consent of "pater eius Willelmus comes…et mater eius Hela" by charter dated 18 Dec 1139[881]. "Wido comes Pontivii" confirmed freedoms over his lands, with the consent of "patris mei Willermi et domine Ele matris mee, fratris mei Johannis et uxoris mee Ide et filii mei Johannis" by undated charter[882].

Comte Guillaume [I] & his [first] wife had [two] children:

1. CLEMENCE de Ponthieu (-30 Nov before 1189). Guillaume de Jumièges records that an unnamed daughter of Guillaume Talvas married "Joel fils de Gauthier de Mayenne"[883]. "Juhello principe Meduane et uxore eius Clementia et filio eorum Gaufrido primogenito" subscribed a charter dated 12 and 26 Jul 1128, under which property was restored to the abbey of Mont-Saint-Michel[884]. m (before [1126]) JUHEL Sire de Mayenne, son of GAUTHIER Seigneur de Mayenne & his wife Aline --- (-23 Dec 1161, bur Evroux).

2. MABILE de Ponthieu . "Gulielmus comes Pontivorum" donated property to the abbey of Saint-Sauveur-le-Vicomte for the souls of "Ela his wife and of their sons two of them called Robert and two William and two Enguerrand and Mabel his daughter" by charter dated 1127[885]. If this translation is accurate, the wording suggests that Mabile was not the daughter of Guillaume´s known wife Hélie.

3. PHILIPPA de Ponthieu (-before 1149, bur Abbaye de Saint-Martin de Sées). The primary source which confirms her parentage has not yet been identified. It is suggested that she may have been born from her father´s supposed first marriage only to reduce the number of children attributed to his wife Hélie, whose age suggests that she could not have been the mother of ten children.

Comte Guillaume [I] & his wife had nine children:

4. GUY [II] de Ponthieu (-Ephesus [25 Dec] 1147). His parentage is recorded by Orderic Vitalis[886]. He succeeded before 1129 as Comte de Ponthieu.

5. GUILLAUME de Ponthieu (-after 1166). "Gulielmus comes Pontivorum" donated property to the abbey of Saint-Sauveur-le-Vicomte for the souls of "Ela his wife and of their sons two of them called Robert and two William and two Enguerrand and Mabel his daughter" by charter dated 1127[887]. Comte d'Alençon 1166.

6. ROBERT de Ponthieu . "Gulielmus comes Pontivorum" donated property to the abbey of Saint-Sauveur-le-Vicomte for the souls of "Ela his wife and of their sons two of them called Robert and two William and two Enguerrand and Mabel his daughter" by charter dated 1127[888]. 1127.

7. ROBERT de Garennes (-1171 or after). "Gulielmus comes Pontivorum" donated property to the abbey of Saint-Sauveur-le-Vicomte for the souls of "Ela his wife and of their sons two of them called Robert and two William and two Enguerrand and Mabel his daughter" by charter dated 1127[889]. Monk before 1147.

8. GUILLAUME de Ponthieu . "Gulielmus comes Pontivorum" donated property to the abbey of Saint-Sauveur-le-Vicomte for the souls of "Ela his wife and of their sons two of them called Robert and two William and two Enguerrand and Mabel his daughter" by charter dated 1127[890].

9. ENGUERRAND de Ponthieu . "Gulielmus comes Pontivorum" donated property to the abbey of Saint-Sauveur-le-Vicomte for the souls of "Ela his wife and of their sons two of them called Robert and two William and two Enguerrand and Mabel his daughter" by charter dated 1127[891].

10. ENGUERRAND de Ponthieu . "Gulielmus comes Pontivorum" donated property to the abbey of Saint-Sauveur-le-Vicomte for the souls of "Ela his wife and of their sons two of them called Robert and two William and two Enguerrand and Mabel his daughter" by charter dated 1127[892].

11. JEAN de Ponthieu (-1191). "Wido comes Pontivii" confirmed freedoms over his lands, with the consent of "patris mei Willermi et domine Ele matris mee, fratris mei Johannis et uxoris mee Ide et filii mei Johannis" by undated charter[893]. He succeeded in 1141 as Comte d'Alençon. Robert of Torigny records that Henry II King of England granted "castrum Alenceium et Rocam Mabiriæ" to "Willermus Talavacius comes Sagiensis et filius eius Johannes et iterum Johannes nepos eius filius Guidonis primogeniti sui comitis Pontivi" in 1166[894]. Robert of Torigny records the death in 1171 of "Guillermus Talavercius comes Pontivi" and the succession of "Johannes comes filius eius" in the lands which he held from the English king "in Normannia et in Cenomannensi pago"[895].

12. ELA de Ponthieu (-10 Oct 1174). Guillaume de Jumièges records that an unnamed daughter of Guillaume Talvas married "Guillaume de Warenne comte de Surrey"[896]. The primary source which confirms her name has not yet been identified but, if it is correct, it suggests that she must have been born from Guillaume´s marriage to Hélie de Bourgogne. Her second marriage is confirmed by Robert of Torigny who refers to the wife of "comes Patricius" as "filia Guillermi comitis Pontivi, matre comitisse de Warenna"[897]. m firstly WILLIAM de Warenne Earl of Surrey, son of WILLIAM de Warenne Earl of Surrey & his wife Elisabeth de Vermandois [Capet] ([1119]-killed in battle Laodicea 19 Jan 1148). m secondly (1152 or before) as his second wife, PATRICK Earl of Salisbury, son of WALTER FitzEdward de Salisbury & his wife Maud de Chaources [Chaworth] (-killed in battle Poitou [7 Apr] 1168, bur Poitiers, Abbaye de Saint-Hilaire).

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William III, Count of Ponthieu http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_III,_Count_of_Ponthieu From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

William III of Ponthieu (c. 1093[1] – 1172) also called William (II; III) Talvas.[a] He was seigneur de Montgomery in Normandy and Count of Ponthieu.

Life

William was son of Robert II of Bellême and Agnes of Ponthieu.[2][3][4] He succeeded his father as count of Ponthieu some time between 1105 and 1111,[2] when he alone as count made a gift to the abbey of Cluny.[3] His father Robert de Bellême had turned against Henry I on several occasions, had escaped capture at the battle of Tinchebrai in 1106 commanding Duke Robert's rear guard and later, while serving as envoy for King Louis of France, he was arrested by Henry I and imprisoned for life.[5] William was naturally driven by this to oppose King Henry. In June of 1119, however, Henry I restored all his father's lands in Normandy. Sometime prior to 1126, William resigned the county of Ponthieu to his son Guy but retained the title of count.[3] In 1135 Henry I again confiscated all his Norman lands to which William responded by joining count Geoffrey of Anjou in his invasion of Normandy after Henry I's death[3]

Family

His married, abt. 1115, Helie of Burgundy, daughter of Eudes I, Duke of Burgundy.[2][6] The Gesta Normannorum Ducum says that they had five children, three sons and two daughters. Europäische Stammtafeln, however, shows eleven.[2] The five both agree on are:

  • Guy II. He assumed the county of Ponthieu during his father Talvas' lifetime, but died in 1147 predeceasing his father.[2]
  • William, Count of Alençon.[2]
  • John I, Count of Alençon, married Beatrix d'Anjou, daughter of Elias II, Count of Maine and Philippa, daughter of Rotrou III, Count of Perche.[2]
  • Clemence married (abt. 1189) Juhel, son of Walter of Mayenne.[2]
  • Adela (aka Ela) married William de Warenne, 3rd Earl of Surrey.[2]

References

  1. ^ Kathleen Thompson, 'William Talvas, Count of Ponthieu, and the Politics of the Anglo-Norman Realm', England and Normandy in the Middle Ages, ed. David Bates, Ann Curry (Hambledon Press, London, 1994), p. 170
  2. ^ a b c d e f g h i Detlev Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge, Band III Teilband 4, Das Feudale Frankreich und Sien Einfluss auf des Mittelalters (Marburg, Germany: Verlag von J. A. Stargardt, 1989), Tafel 638
  3. ^ a b c d G. E. Cokayne, The Complete Peerage, Vol. XI (The St. Catherine Press, London, 1949) p. 697
  4. ^ K.S.B. Keats-Rohan, Domesday Descendants: A Prosopography of Persons Occurring in English Documents 1066-1166, Volume II Pipe Rolls to Cartae Baronum (Boydell & Brewer, UK & Rochester, NY, 2002), p. 310
  5. ^ G. E. Cokayne, The Complete Peerage, Vol. XI (The St. Catherine Press, London, 1949) pp. 693-4
  6. ^ DeBacker, D. M., Gathering Leaves , ( Lulu.com, 2008), 254.

Additional References

The Gesta Normannorum Ducum of William of Jumièges, Orderic Vitalis, and Robert of Torigni, edited and translated by Elisabeth M. C. Van Houts, Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1995.

Notes

^ Orderic Vitalis and Robert de Torigny both mentioned his nickname 'Talvas' but he is not known to have used it when granting or attesting his own charters,[G. E. Cokayne, The Complete Peerage, Vol. XI (The St. Catherine Press, London, 1949) p. 697 n. (a)] but in a notification by the monks of St. Michel he was styled Willelmus Tallevat comes Pontivi. [Calendar of Documents Preserved in France, ed. J. Horace Round (Eyre and Spottiswoode, 1899), no. 737]

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Guillaume Ier de Ponthieu http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillaume_Ier_de_Ponthieu

Guillaume Ier de Ponthieu, dit Talvas († 1171) fut comte de Ponthieu de 1110 à 1126, sire d'Alençon et de Sées (sous le nom de Guillaume III) de 1119 à 1171. Il était fils de Robert II de Bellême, sire d'Alençon, vicomte d'Hiémois, seigneur de Bellême et comte de Shrewsbury, et d'Agnès, comtesse de Ponthieu.

Son père était un noble anglo-normand qui, bien que fidèle de Guillaume le Conquérant, chercha à devenir indépendant à la mort de ce dernier et se révolta fréquemment contre les fils de Guillaume. Henri Ier Beauclerc finit par lui confisquer ses terres anglaises en 1102 et par l'emprisonner en 1112. Robert de Bellême s'était montré cruel avec sa femme, au point que celle-ci s'enfuit, se réfugia à la cour de Blois, puis s'installa dans le Ponthieu. Elle y mourut entre 1106 et 1110 et Guillaume Talvas devint comte de Ponthieu. En 1119, Henri Beauclerc rend à Guillaume Talvas une partie des domaines confisqués à son père.

Pour se consacrer à ses affaires normandes, il confie le Ponthieu à son fils Guy en 1126. Dans le conflit qui oppose Henri d'Angleterre à Geoffroy Plantagenêt, comte d'Anjou, il choisit le comte d'Anjou, et Henri lui prend les châteaux d'Alençon et d'Argentan. Il profite de la mort du roi Henri Ier pour reprendre Alençon. La mort du roi annonce une guerre de succession entre Mathilde, fille du roi et épouse de Geoffroy Plantagenêt, et Étienne de Blois, neveu du roi. Alors que la plupart des seigneurs voisins se rallient à Étienne, Guillaume reste fidèle à Geoffroy et à Mathilde, et il doit se défendre contre Rotrou du Perche et Richard de l'Aigle. En 1147, il suit le roi Louis VII le Jeune lors de la deuxième croisade. À son retour, un litige l'oppose à Henri II Plantagenêt, le nouveau comte d'Anjou et duc de Normandie, et ce dernier lui reprend Alençon. Pour se venger, Guillaume dévaste la zone située entre le Perche et la Normandie.

Après avoir fondé plusieurs établissements religieux, dont l'abbaye de Perseigne, Guillaume Talvas meurt le 29 juin 1171.

Mariage et enfants

Il avait épousé vers 1115 Hélène de Bourgogne (v. 1080 † 1141), fille d'Eudes Ier, duc de Bourgogne, et de Sibylle de Bourgogne, et veuve de Bertrand de Toulouse. De ce mariage étaient nés :

  • Guy II († 1147), comte de Ponthieu ;
  • Guillaume, associé au gouvernement du comté d'Alençon, mais mort entre 1166 et 1171 ;
  • Robert, cité en 1127 ;
  • Enguerrand, cité en 1127 ;
  • Mabille, citée en 1127 ;
  • Jean Ier († 1191), comte d'Alençon ;
  • Clémence († avant 1189), mariée à Juhel, seigneur de Mayenne ;
  • Ela (ou Adélaïde, Hélène) de Ponthieu (v 1119 † 14 octobre 1174), mariée à Guillaume III de Warenne, comte de Surrey, puis à Patrick de Salisbury, (Patrick FitzWalter), fils de Gautier (Walter FitzEdward) de Salisbury.

Sources

  • Les seigneurs de Bellême sur FranceBalade.
  • Guillaume de Ponthieu sur la Foundation for Medieval Genealogy.

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-------------------- William Talvas, count of Ponthieu -------------------- Robert de Bellême (c. 1056– after 1130), seigneur de Bellême (or Belèsme), seigneur de Montgomery, viscount of the Hiémois, 3rd Earl of Shrewsbury and Count of Ponthieu, was an Anglo-Norman nobleman, and one of the most prominent figures in the competition for the succession to England and Normandy...

Robert was the oldest surviving son of Roger of Montgomery, 1st Earl of Shrewsbury and Mabel de Bellême, born probably between 1052 and 1056...

Robert married Agnes of Ponthieu, before 9 Sep 1087, and they had one child:[49]

  • William III of Ponthieu, who via his mother inherited the county of Ponthieu.[23]...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_of_Bell%C3%AAme

Agnes, Countess of Ponthieu - - Agnes of Ponthieu (c. 1080 – aft. 1105) was the daughter of Count Guy I of Ponthieu. Enguerrand, the son of Count Guy, died at a youthful age. Guy then made his brother Hugh heir presumptive, but he also died before Guy (died 1100). Agnes became count Guy's heiress, and was married to Robert of Bellême. Their son William III of Ponthieu succeeded to the county of Ponthieu after the death of Agnes (between 1105 and 1111), and the imprisonment of his father in 1112.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnes_of_Ponthieu

William III of Ponthieu (c. 1093[1] – 1172) also called William (II; III) Talvas.[a] He was seigneur de Montgomery in Normandy and Count of Ponthieu.

 

Life[edit]

William was son of Robert II of Bellême and Agnes of Ponthieu.[2][3][4] He succeeded his father as count of Ponthieu some time between 1105 and 1111,[2] when he alone as count made a gift to the abbey of Cluny.[3] His father Robert de Bellême had turned against Henry I on several occasions, had escaped capture at the battle of Tinchebrai in 1106 commanding Duke Robert's rear guard and later, while serving as envoy for King Louis of France, he was arrested by Henry I and imprisoned for life.[5] William was naturally driven by this to oppose King Henry. In June of 1119, however, Henry I restored all his father's lands in Normandy. Sometime prior to 1126, William resigned the county of Ponthieu to his son Guy but retained the title of count.[3] In 1135 Henry I again confiscated all his Norman lands to which William responded by joining count Geoffrey of Anjou in his invasion of Normandy after Henry I's death[3]

Family[edit]

His married, abt. 1115, Helie of Burgundy, daughter of Eudes I, Duke of Burgundy.[2][6] The Gesta Normannorum Ducum says that they had five children, three sons and two daughters. Europäische Stammtafeln, however, shows eleven.[2] The five both agree on are:

  • Guy II. He assumed the county of Ponthieu during his father Talvas' lifetime, but died in 1147 predeceasing his father.[2]
  • William, Count of Alençon.[2]
  • John I, Count of Alençon, married Beatrix d'Anjou, daughter of Elias II, Count of Maine and Philippa, daughter of Rotrou III, Count of Perche.[2]
  • Clemence married (abt. 1189) Juhel, son of Walter of Mayenne.[2]
  • Adela (aka Ela) married William de Warenne, 3rd Earl of Surrey.[2] She married, secondly, Patrick of Salisbury.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_III,_Count_of_Ponthieu

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Guillaume III "Talvas" de Bellême, comte de Ponthieu et d'Alencon's Timeline

1090
1090
Alencon, Orne, France
1105
1105
Age 15
Alencon, Orne, Normandy, France
1110
1110
Age 20
1114
1114
Age 24
1115
1115
Age 25
Ponthieu, France
1115
Age 25
Europe
1119
1119
Age 29
Of Elington, , Lincoln, England
1120
1120
Age 30
France
1124
1124
Age 34
Saint-Riquier, 80716, Somme, Picardie, France,
1171
June 30, 1171
Age 81
England