Foundation for Medieval Genealogy:

RAYMOND de Toulouse ([925/30]-[972]). The Codex de Roda names "Regemundus" as the son of "Pontio" and his wife "filia Garsie Sanzionis"[270]. Europäische Stammtafeln[271] omits Counts Raymond III and Raymond IV from its schema of the counts of Toulouse, showing Count Guillaume III "Taillefer" as the son of Count Raymond Pons. The chronological difficulties with this interpretation are evident, assuming that Raymond Pons's birth date is as estimated above and that Guillaume III is recorded as dying in 1037. Settipani sets out the background to this theory and proposes a robust new line of descent, the main elements of which are as shown here, supported by the primary sources which are quoted below[272]. Raymond presumably succeeded his father as RAYMOND III Comte de Toulouse, although there appears to be no mention of him with this title in primary sources[273]. [A charter dated 2 Jul 972 records a hearing at Nîmes by "Raymondus comes et marchio" relating to "ecclesiam Sancti Martini…in comitatu Agatense" in the presence of "…Siguinus vicecomes et Bernardus frater eius…"[274]. It is not known whether this document refers to Raymond [II] Comte de Rouergue or to Raymond III Comte de Toulouse.] A charter dated 972 records donations to the church of Saint-Michel de Gaillac, confirmed by "Regimundus comes", subscribed by "Gersindis comitissæ"[275]. m [GUNDINILDIS], daughter of ---. The wife of Comte Raymond III was named Gundinildis, assuming that her son Raymond was "…Raymundo filio Gundinildis nepoti meo" who is named in the codicil testament of "Gersindæ comitissæ", widow of Comte Raymond Pons[276].

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_III_of_Toulouse:

Raymond III (died 978) was the Count of Toulouse, Nîmes, and Albi. He was the son of Raymond Pons and Garsenda, daughter of García II of Gascony.

In 950, on the death of his father, he inherited the titles of Toulouse, Nîmes, and Albi, as well as that of Prince of Gothia. He was young at the time of his succession and fell under the regency of his mother. His cousin Raymond II of Rouergue became the head of the family and increased his branch's power over the Toulousain line. He had a younger son, Bertrand.

In 975, Raymond III ceded Albi to his son Pons Raymond. Just three years later he was assassinated, leaving his titles, save Albi, to his eldest son William III. His wife had been Adelaide, daughter of Fulk II of Anjou. Raymond III and Adelaide had the following children:

   * Raymond (IV or V)

   * Hugues (Hugh)

   * Letgarda, who married Borrel II of Barcelona.

Sources

   * Lewis, Archibald R. The Development of Southern French and Catalan Society, 718–1050. University of Texas Press: Austin, 1965.

   * Foundation for Medieval Genealogy: Toulouse.

Discussion on wikipedia:

Traditionally, Raymond III Pons was father of William III. We now know that this was not the case, but that throws all numbering into chaos, and there is no scholarly consensus. One reconstruction inserts only a single Raymond. They then niftily solve the numbering problem by removing the number from Raymond Pons and calling the new one Raymond III. This has the advantage of not requiring a renumbering of the later Raymonds, but is not the most likely solution to the problem (in fact, it seems to be preferred primarily by genealogists, simply because they don't want to renumber the later Raymonds).

The Codice de Roda gives a pedigree where (Raymond) Pons was father of a Raymond, and grandfather of a Hugh and a Raymond. The will of Garsenda, widow of Raymond, names separately her nepos (nephew or grandson) count Hugh, and nepos Raymond, son of Gunidildis. This leads to the reconstruction that Raymond Pons had Raymond who married Gunidildis, having in turn Hugh and Raymond who married Adelais, in turns having William, i.e. two new Raymonds. (An unpublished alternative that has been discussed is an attempt to merge the two, making William son of Adelais the younger half-brother of Hugh and Raymond, sons of Gunidildis, but this too has problems.) Then there is the most unusual, interpreting nepos as nephew, an alternative reconstruction identifies count Hugh with the Count of Rouergue, and makes Raymond, father of William a member of this same Rouergue branch of the family instead.

In other words, there are three published reconstructions, and several more guesses, with no consensus. This Raymond III page does not accurately portray the situation, but rather mixes and matches different parts from different theories, creating an nonsensical chimera (for example, stating in the text that "Raymond III" had Pons Raymond (completely unsupported) and William, then listing his children as Raymond and Hugh). I don't even know the best way of fixing the problem, but when the historians themselves can't even decide if there is one or two generations here, and everyone is using different ordinals to refer to the missing counts, it is hardly NPOV to present it as has been done here. Perhaps the best solution is to create a single page for the Succession of Toulouse, 950–978 which can discuss the entire controversy without forcing these round pegs into the square holes of individual pages for counts that may never have existed, and about whom we really know nothing other than who they might or might not have married or had as children or parents, all of which will be different depending on which reconstruction is followed. Agricolae (talk) 17:31, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

   Do what you think is best, but you would have to do it. You can see what sources I used; they are out of date. I even knew of the succession/genealogy issue when I created it, but I was unaware of exactly what the issue was, so I had no idea what information was now known to be incorrect and what needed revising. Unfortunately, I do not have easy access the sources required to clean up the mess. If you create a lenthy bibliography of the sources needed, though, I can check to see if I can access some and help fix it, but otherwise you are almost certainly the only regular contributor qualified and capable of doing it. (Since I don't know about the controversy, I cannot say whether "Succession of Toulouse, 950–978" is a good idea, but if you think so, I encourage it.) Srnec (talk) 06:26, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

       Well, that won't work either. Settipani places Raymond Pons' death in 940/944, so even the date range in the page name is problematic. I am at a loss as to how to square this circle. The real problem is that an encyclopedia is designed to present consensus. When there is no consensus, having articles for people who may never have existed becomes problematic. As to recent references, I am unaware of anything other than Stasser, Fromond and Settipani that specifically analyze the problem. I suspect the eventual consensus will be that there were two additional Raymonds as counts, descending from Raymond Pons - basically the Roda document's version (followed by Stasser and Settipani, and one alternative given by Fromond), but as I am sure you appreciate, scholars don't just get together and vote on a consensus, it can take a century for a scholarly paradigm to shift to a new one, particularly in a field where there is only infrequent publication.

       I have read back through some of the sources, and now have a better idea what I think the solution is, but for Wikipedia purposes, my analysis is irrelevant unless I publish it. Solving this problem here requires a way to discuss this issue on a page or pages that accurately reflect(s) the uncertainty, and neither numbers nor dates would seem up to the task. Can anyone suggest a page title? I hesitate to use something cute like "The Missing Counts of Toulouse" but that is basically the kind of thing we need. Maybe I should just create it and hope someone renames it with a better name. Agricolae (talk) 21:00, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

           I understand. On the matter of a title: Counts of Toulouse, 940–978? In discussing the succession the issue of the date of death of the previous count will come up, so the article will be discussion the issue of who was count during the period 940–954. Also, this title would make a good link from the page Counts of Toulouse (to which County of Toulouse is a redirect). The succession could be treated as a section at that article, but it might be unwieldly and distracting there. Srnec (talk) 04:22, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

--------------------

Raymond III of Toulouse

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Raymond III (died 978) was the Count of Toulouse, Nîmes, and Albi. He was the son of Raymond Pons and Garsenda, daughter of García II of Gascony.

In 950, on the death of his father, he inherited the titles of Toulouse, Nîmes, and Albi, as well as that of Prince of Gothia. He was young at the time of his succession and fell under the regency of his mother. His cousin Raymond II of Rouergue became the head of the family and increased his branch's power over the Toulousain line. He had a younger son, Bertrand.

In 975, Raymond III ceded Albi to his son Pons Raymond. Just three years later he was assassinated, leaving his titles, save Albi, to his eldest son William III. His wife had been Adelaide, daughter of Fulk II of Anjou. Raymond III and Adelaide had the following children:

Pons Raymond

Raimonda, married Atto, Viscount of Soule

Bertrand

William III

Adelaide (Tota)

Sources

Lewis, Archibald R. The Development of Southern French and Catalan Society, 718–1050. University of Texas Press: Austin, 1965.

Foundation for Medieval Genealogy: Toulouse.