Sir Simon le Graunt

Re: George Sorrell (b. 1796) - New Gateway Ancestor 15 posts by 3 authors

Steve Wilson

12/5/11

Other recipients: wjho...@aol.com, GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com

Doing a little more digging, I believe my source for referring to this branch of the family as "Dudley, alias Sutton" was Dean Dudley's account of the Dudleys of Russells Hall in his *Supplement to the History and Genealogy of the Dudley Family* (published ca. 1900). Here is a link to the pedigree on Google Books: *http://preview.tinyurl.com/79w6cqk*.

Dean Dudley cites contemporary records from the parishes in the vicinity of Dudley which refers to members of this branch variously as "Dudley" and "Sutton." For instance, Geoffrey, the great-grandson of Geoffrey and Eleanor (Talbot), is called "Jeffrey Sutton, gent." upon the burial of his wife Elizabeth. Dean Dudley also mentions a "Jeffrey Sutton, alias Dudley" a resident at Russells Hall in the early seventeenth century along with a "Thomas Sutton, alias Dudley" contemporaneously resident at Netherton. This Geoffrey and this Thomas are no doubt brothers, the great-grandchildren of Geoffrey and Eleanor (Talbot), the grandchildren of Thomas and Dorothy (Lascelles), and the sons of another Geoffrey. On Mon, Dec 5, 2011, at 10:14 AM, Stephen Wilson <sjwil...@gmail.com>wrote:

My apologies. This appears to have been sloppiness on my part (I have
virtually all Suttons and Dudleys descended from the Baron Dudleys listed
as "Dudley, alias Sutton" in my database for ease of reference).

Quickly surveying my notes, no one in the direct line of George Sorrell
later than Edward Sutton, 2nd Baron Dudley, (m. Cecily Willoughby) seems to
have used the surname "Sutton." Geoffrey Dudley, son of the aforementioned
seems to only have been referred to as "Dudley," for instance in regards to
his marriage to Eleanor Talbot. All of Geoffrey's children, grandchildren,
and great-grandchildren that were christened at Saint Thomas or Saint
Edmund in Dudley look to be recorded as Dudleys. When William Colles
married at Lapworth on 3 June 1627, his bride's name was given as
"Katherine Dudley."

On Mon, Dec 5, 2011, at 9:49 AM, Wjhonson <wjho...@aol.com> wrote:

What is your evidence that *this* line of Dudley's was called "alias
Sutton" ?

Click here to Reply<br/>

Steve Wilson

12/5/11

Other recipients: wjho...@aol.com, GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com

Further evidence that this branch of the family used the names "Dudley" and "Sutton" interchangeably can be found in the wills of the Dudleys of Russell Hall, several of which were reprinted in part in *Miscellanea Genealogica et Heraldica* (*HTTP://preview.tinyurl.com/722kre8*), including

  - The will of "Thomas Sutton, alias Duddeley," gentleman, who made his will 3 February 1646. Mentions wife Anne Sutton, alias Duddeley; eldest son 

  Thomas Sutton, alias Duddley; youngest son Edward Sutton, alias 

  Duddeley; and son-in-law Thomas Baker. 

  - The will of his wife "Ann Sutton, alias Dudley," widow of Dudley, 

  dated 8 December 1653, proved December 1662. Mentions eldest son Thomas 

  Sutton, alias Dudley; grandson Robert Sutton, alias Dudley; grandson Thomas 

  Sutton, alias Dudley; grandson Farthinandoe Sutton, alias Dudley; son 

  Edward Sutton, alias Dudley; sister Elner Smyth; daughter Ann Baker; 

  grandson Thomas Baker; granddaughter Margaret Dudley; granddaughter Ann 

  Sutton, alias Dudley; grandson John Sutton, alias Dudley; and daughter-in-law Margery, wife of Edward. 

I believe this Thomas (d. 1646/7) to be the same as "Thomas Dudley" married to "Mary Gregson" on 13 February 1608 at Saint Edmund, Dudley. This couple had a daughter "Katherin Dudley" christened at Saint Edmund on 19 August 1610. The next recorded christening for a child of Thomas at either Saint Edmund or Saint Thomas (also in Dudley) is that of "Deoaritye Dudley" at Saint Thomas on 16 April 1615. Between 21 November 1616 and 7 December 1626 8 more children of Thomas were christened at these two parishes, including the children Thomas, Edward, and Anne mentioned in the wills above.

It would thus seem that these latter 9 children belong to the second marriage of Thomas (to Anne), and that Catherine, christened 1610, was their half-sister via their father's earlier marriage to Mary Gregson. Mary must have died sometime between her daughter Catherine's christening and the christening of Dorothy Dudley in 1615. This would most likely place Thomas Dudley's second marriage to Anne at some point between 1611 and 1614. - show quoted text - Click here to Reply

Nathaniel Taylor

12/5/11

Other recipients: sjwil...@gmail.com, GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com

At 1:05 AM -0500 12/5/11, Stephen Wilson wrote:

My 4th great-grandfather, George Sorrell, who was born at Inkberrow,
Worcestershire in 1796, sailed from Liverpool to New York in 1823 and died
at Butternuts, Otsego Co., New York in 1826 or 1827, possesses four
descents from Edward III which I believe to be solid and verifiable.

Each of these descents comes either through William Colles (b. 1597/98, d.
aft. 9 February 1640), son of Humphrey Colles (Gentleman, Barrister of the
Middle Temple, Feodary for Warwickshire, b. ca. 1567, d. 18 March - 11 June
1640) and Mary Chamberlain his wife, or through William Colles' wife,
Catherine Dudley, alias Sutton (b. 1610), daughter of Thomas Dudley, alias
Sutton (Gentleman, b. ca. 16 December 1585, d. 6 February 1647) and Mary
Gregson his wife.

<...>

5. Henry Percy & Eleanor Neville (daughter of Ralph Neville & Joan
Beaufort)
6. Ralph Percy & Jane Tey (daughter of John Tey of Great Burstead)
7. Catherine Percy & Simon Graunt (son of Simon le Graunt & Mathilde
Cheneau/Chenow of Snitterfield)
8. Edward Graunt & Anne Somerville (daughter of Robert Somerville of
Edreston & Mary Greville of Milcote)
9. Mary Graunt & Michael Colles (son of William Colles of Branceford
Court & Margaret Hitch of Gloucestershire)
10. Humphrey Colles & Mary Chamberlain (daughter of William Chamberlain
of Shirburn & Margaret Streatley of Wheatfield)
11. William Colles & Catherine Dudley, alias Sutton (daughter of Thomas
Dudley, alias Sutton of Dudley & Mary Gregson of Dudley)***

<...>

Waters' "Gleanings" from the NEHGR in 1911 gives us something on this Colles family: Ursula, sister of Michael Colles, at no. 9 above, was the grandmother of New England immigrant Edmond Hawes. Waters cites Grazebrook's _Heraldry of Worcestershire_ on the Colleses. Is there good literature on these Graunts and their Tey - Percy connection?

Speaking of Dudley, Dean Dudley (cited in your later messages) doesn't mention the marriage in 11 or her parents; how certain are you of the identity and descent of this Catherine Dudley wife of William Colles, especially given the spotty record (as shown by Dudley and Grazebrook) on this branch of Dudleys in which you have placed her? Are these generations covered elsewhere in the printed literature?

Nat Taylor a genealogist's sketchbook: http://nltaylor.net/sketchbook/ Click here to Reply

Steve Wilson

12/5/11

Other recipients: nlta...@nltaylor.net, GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com

Regarding the Graunts:

I'm having some difficulty locating my full notes on the Graunts of Snitterfield, Norbrook, etc., though I did manage to find fairly easily through Googling that Catherine Percy, said to be the daughter of Sir Ralph Percy and Jane Tey, heiress of Bursted, is shown to have married Sir Simon le Grand, "of Normandy," who "came from France into England with Henry VI."

• The Visitations of Essex, &c.*, published by the Harleian Society in 1879, shows Simon le Grand and Catherine Percy having an issue, Margaret, "dau. and heir," married to Sir John Wiltshire. Similar information is also given in *The Visitations of Cornwall...* (1887) and *Northumberland Families*, Volume Two (1968). However, at the moment I can't find any source linking Sir Simon le Grand to the Graunts of Snitterfield and Norbrook. For now, I tentatively show Simon le Grand as a brother of Walter Graunt of Snitterfield and father of Edward Graunt of Snitterfield/Norbrook, though this may have no basis in fact.

Most information I can find directly addressing these Graunts is in connection with Walter Graunt of Snitterfield, whose daughters Jane, Margery and Isabel are said to have married, respectively, John Spencer of Hodnell, Humphrey Jennetts of Feckenham, and John Spencer of Wormleighton (nephew of the former John Spencer of Hodnell). This Walter Graunt's wife is given as Elizabeth Rudinge, daughter of Humphrey Rudinge of Wick. The will of John Spencer of Hodnell, proved 1496, mentions "Joan, wife of Walter Graunt," so it seems as though he may have married a second time.

Edward Graunt, most probable nephew of Walter Graunt, married Anne Somerville, daughter of Robert Somerville of Aston Somerville by Mary, daughter of John Greville of Milcote. This Edward is shown as having issue Mary (wife of Michael Colles of Bradwell and Hampton-in-Arden) and Thomas, son and heir. This Thomas was married (1568, Snitterfield) to Alice, daughter of Edmund Rudinge and Jane Colles (sister of Michael Colles), and was, by her, father of John Graunt (b. ca. 1570), executed in 1606 for his role in the Gunpowder Plot. Thomas Graunt also had, by his second wife Joan, children christened at Hanbury (1577-1584): Francis, Mary, Anne, Maud, Frances, and Ludwick. Thomas' will, dated 16 June 1603, lists his residence as "Northbrook" and provides for his burial at Snitterfield.

Interestingly, though not conincidentally, John Graunt, of the Gundpowder Plot, was married to Dorothy Wynter (also spelled Wintour, etc.), sister of fellow conspirators Robert and Thomas Wynter. John Graunt's great uncle John Somerville (brother of his grandmother Anne, wife of Edward Graunt), was also among the conspirators, as was John Somerville's father-in-law, Edward Arden. John and Dorothy Graunt seem to have had at least one child, a son named Wynter Graunt. - show quoted text -

http://nltaylor.net/**sketchbook/ <http://nltaylor.net/sketchbook/>

Click here to Reply<br/>

Steve Wilson

12/5/11

Other recipients: nlta...@nltaylor.net, GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com

Correction: John Somerville, of the Gunpowder Plot, son-in-law to co-conspirator Edward Arden, was the first cousin once removed, not great uncle, as previously stated, of John Graunt, as he was the son by Elizabeth Corbet of John Somerville, brother to John Graunt's grandmother Anne, wife of Edward Graunt.

Another interesting connection to note is that of Dorothy Wynter, wife of Edward Graunt, to Catherine Dudley (if she is in fact the daughter of Thomas Dudley of Netherton). Thomas Dudley was great great grandson of Elizabeth Wynter (mother of Eleanor Talbot, mother of Thomas Dudley, father of Geoffrey Dudley, father of Thomas of Netherton). Elizabeth Wynter would in turn have been a great aunt of Dorothy Wynter. - show quoted text - Click here to Reply

Nathaniel Taylor

12/5/11

Other recipients: sjwil...@gmail.com, GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com

    The Visitations of Essex, &c., published by the Harleian Society in 1879, 

    shows Simon le Grand and Catherine Percy having issue, Margaret, "dau. and 

    heir," married to Sir John Wiltshire. 

Well, this assertion (that they left a 'daughter and heir') contradicts two

  of your descents.  If the Dudleys are similarly problematic, there's much 

  work to be done. 

Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://nltaylor.net/sketchbook/ Click here to Reply
Steve Wilson

12/5/11

Other recipients: nlta...@nltaylor.net, GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com

I agree regarding the le Grand-Graunt connection. It seems, absent any contradictory documents, that there is no basis for regarding the Graunts of Snitterfield as descended from the marriage of Simon le Grand and Catherine Percy, given that daughter Margaret is shown as heiress.

The Dudley descent, on the other hand, still seems possible (perhaps even probable). I find no record of William Colles, husband of Catherine Dudley, later than the will of his father, Humphrey Colles of Chilvers Coton, dated 9 February 1639/40:

"£200 to grandson William, eldest son of son William Colles for his maintenance. Exectors to invest money in land which to be estated on William the younger for life. [...] Residue to sons William, Michael and John and daughter Marie to be divided equally expet lease of Alderney estate which to son John and his wife."

It's possible that William Colles had died before 3 February 1646/47, when Thomas Dudley of Netherton made his will. This would account for Thomas Dudley mentioning only sons Thomas and Edward and son-in-law Thomas Baker. Thomas did not name any grandchildren in his will, though by 1647 at least five had been born.

Concerning William Colles, I find a "Humfrey Cole," son of William and Elizabeth christened 4 September 1625 at Bickenhill (near Solihull, where the Colles held land). The William, eldest son of William, mentioned in the will of Humphrey Colles would likely have been a son of William Colles' marriage to this Elizabeth, born some time in 1626 or 1627, as William Colles married Catherine Dudley on 3 June 1627 at Lapworth (also near Solihull).

A "Humfry Cole," son of William, was christened 27 February 1633 at Henley-in-Arden (less than 4 miles from Lapworth, and a little under 12 miles from Bickenhill). This seems to be the "Humfry Coles" who married Martha Tonge on 8 October 1667 at Alcester (a little under 8 miles from Henley-in-Arden). If all of this is correct, that would make William Colles the younger the eldest living son of William Colles the elder in 1640 at the time Humphrey Colles of Chilvers Cotton made his will. When Humphrey Colles refers to him as "eldest son of son William Colles," this implies the existence of at least one younger son (likely this Humphrey, christened 1633).

Interestingly, a "Martha Cole," daughter of William was christened at Alcester on 16 August 1648, which makes me suspect she was a daughter of William Colles the younger. On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 4:56 PM, Nathaniel Taylor <nlta...@nltaylor.net>wrote:

• *
  
  
• The Visitations of Essex, &c.*, published by the Harleian Society in
  

- show quoted text - Click here to Reply

Steve Wilson

12/5/11

Other recipients: nlta...@nltaylor.net, GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com

Also, given that the Colles family was centered near Solihull at this time, the Dudley family was centered near Dudley, and that Solihull and Dudley are a mere 16 miles apart, it does not seem at all unlikely that a daughter of the Dudleys of Dudley (Catherine) would marry a son of the Colleses "of" Solihull, especially given the high social standing of both families.

As "Katherin Dudley," daughter of Thomas, was christened 19 August 1610 at Saint Edmund, Dudley, she would have been almost the perfect age to have married William Colles (b. 1597/98) on 3 June 1627.

Consider also the fact that William Colles, "son of Humphrey Colles of Hampton-in-Arden" was fined for "discontinuance" by the Middle Temple of London on 2 May 1627. Why would he have left the Temple, if not to journey home to Warwickshire for his marriage to the daughter of a wealthy gentleman with estates near those of his own family?

(William Colles is shown to have entered the Middle Temple on 5 May 1618, under the care of his father and "cousin" Fulk Wodhull. Fulk Wodhull was the grandson of Alice Colles, who was a great aunt of William Colles, making William and Fulk second cousins.) - show quoted text - Click here to Reply

Steve Wilson

12/5/11

Other recipients: nlta...@nltaylor.net, GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com

In furtherance of the identification of "Humfry Cole," son of William and Elizabeth, christened 1625, Bickenhill, as son of William Colles and grandson of Humphrey, I note the christening of two children of Humphrey Colles, the testator of 1640, at Bickenhill: John (mentioned in his father's will) on 11 January 1606 and Margaret on 26 February 1608. Two older brothers were christened at Elmdon (2 miles from Bickenhill): Michael (also mentioned in his father's will) on 27 January 1600 and Humphrey on 28 October 1601. - show quoted text - Click here to Reply

wjhonson

12/5/11

Other recipients: sjwil...@gmail.com, GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com

House of cards! House of cards!  What is the evidence that your Mary Gregson even married into this branch at all, let alone this man.  There were many men named Thomas Dudley  This particular branch you're poking at now had a *reason* to call themselves Sutton alias Dudley  The original branch you posted, did not. 

---

Original Message

---

From: Stephen Wilson <sjwil...@gmail.com> To: Wjhonson <wjho...@aol.com> Cc: GEN-MEDIEVAL <GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com> Sent: Mon, Dec 5, 2011 8:47 am Subject: Re: George Sorrell (b. 1796) - New Gateway Ancestor

Further evidence that this branch of the family used the names "Dudley" and "Sutton" interchangeably can be found in the wills of the Dudleys of Russell Hall, several of which were reprinted in part in Miscellanea Genealogica et Heraldica (http://preview.tinyurl.com/722kre8), including

The will of "Thomas Sutton, alias Duddeley," gentleman, who made his will 3 February 1646. Mentions wife Anne Sutton, alias Duddeley; eldest son Thomas Sutton, alias Duddley; youngest son Edward Sutton, alias Duddeley; and son-in-law Thomas Baker.

The will of his wife "Ann Sutton, alias Dudley," widow of Dudley, dated 8 December 1653, proved December 1662. Mentions eldest son Thomas Sutton, alias Dudley; grandson Robert Sutton, alias Dudley; grandson Thomas Sutton, alias Dudley; grandson Farthinandoe Sutton, alias Dudley; son Edward Sutton, alias Dudley; sister Elner Smyth; daughter Ann Baker; grandson Thomas Baker; granddaughter Margaret Dudley; granddaughter Ann Sutton, alias Dudley; grandson John Sutton, alias Dudley; and daughter-in-law Margery, wife of Edward.

I believe this Thomas (d. 1646/7) to be the same as "Thomas Dudley" married to "Mary Gregson" on 13 February 1608 at Saint Edmund, Dudley. This couple had a daughter "Katherin Dudley" christened at Saint Edmund on 19 August 1610. The next recorded christening for a child of Thomas at either Saint Edmund or Saint Thomas (also in Dudley) is that of "Deoaritye Dudley" at Saint Thomas on 16 April 1615. Between 21 November 1616 and 7 December 1626 8 more children of Thomas were christened at these two parishes, including the children Thomas, Edward, and Anne mentioned in the wills above.

It would thus seem that these latter 9 children belong to the second marriage of Thomas (to Anne), and that Catherine, christened 1610, was their half-sister via their father's earlier marriage to Mary Gregson. Mary must have died sometime between her daughter Catherine's christening and the christening of Dorothy Dudley in 1615. This would most likely place Thomas Dudley's second marriage to Anne at some point between 1611 and 1614.

On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 10:56 AM, Stephen Wilson <sjwil...@gmail.com> wrote:

Doing a little more digging, I believe my source for referring to this branch of the family as "Dudley, alias Sutton" was Dean Dudley's account of the Dudleys of Russells Hall in his Supplement to the History and Henealogy of the Dudley Family (published ca. 1900). Here is a link to the pedigree on Google Books: http://preview.tinyurl.com/79w6cqk. - show quoted text - Click here to Reply

Steve Wilson

12/6/11

Other recipients: wjho...@aol.com, GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com

On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 12:10 AM, Wjhonson <wjho...@aol.com> wrote:

House of cards! House of cards! <br/>

What is the evidence that your Mary Gregson even married into this branch
at all, let alone this man.
There were many men named Thomas Dudley

How many of them were living in the Stafford/Worcester/Warwick border
region in the early 1600s?

This particular branch you're poking at now had a *reason* to call
themselves Sutton alias Dudley
The original branch you posted, did not.

I'm not sure what you're getting at, exactly. The original branch about
which I posted is the same branch that has been the subject of each of my posts today. I'm not sure what this "reason" is to which you refer, either. Do you have anything of value to add?

-----Original Message----- <br/>

From: Stephen Wilson <sjwil...@gmail.com>
To: Wjhonson <wjho...@aol.com>
Cc: GEN-MEDIEVAL <GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Mon, Dec 5, 2011 8:47 am
Subject: Re: George Sorrell (b. 1796) - New Gateway Ancestor

Further evidence that this branch of the family used the names "Dudley" <br/>

and "Sutton" interchangeably can be found in the wills of the Dudleys of
Russell Hall, several of which were reprinted in part in *Miscellanea
Genealogica et Heraldica* (*http://preview.tinyurl.com/722kre8*),
including

  - The will of "Thomas Sutton, alias Duddeley," gentleman, who made his <br/>
  will 3 February 1646. Mentions wife Anne Sutton, alias Duddeley; eldest son <br/>
  Thomas Sutton, alias Duddley; youngest son Edward Sutton, alias <br/>
  Duddeley; and son-in-law Thomas Baker. <br/>
   - The will of his wife "Ann Sutton, alias Dudley," widow of Dudley,  - show quoted text -<br/>

the Dudleys of Russells Hall in his *Supplement to the History and
Henealogy of the Dudley Family* (published ca. 1900). Here is a link to
the pedigree on Google Books: *http://preview.tinyurl.com/79w6cqk*.

- show quoted text - Click here to Reply

wjhonson

12/6/11

Other recipients: sjwil...@gmail.com, GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com

Reconstructing a family based on the *county* in which they lived alone, is quite a dangerous pursuit. 

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Original Message

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From: Stephen Wilson <sjwil...@gmail.com> To: Wjhonson <wjho...@aol.com> Cc: GEN-MEDIEVAL <GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tue, Dec 6, 2011 1:00 am Subject: Re: George Sorrell (b. 1796) - New Gateway Ancestor

On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 12:10 AM, Wjhonson <wjho...@aol.com> wrote:

House of cards! House of cards!  What is the evidence that your Mary Gregson even married into this branch at all, let alone this man.  There were many men named Thomas Dudley 

How many of them were living in the Stafford/Worcester/Warwick border region in the early 1600s?

This particular branch you're poking at now had a *reason* to call themselves Sutton alias Dudley The original branch you posted, did not.

I'm not sure what you're getting at, exactly. The original branch about which I posted is the same branch that has been the subject of each of my posts today. I'm not sure what this "reason" is to which you refer, either. Do you have anything of value to add?

---

Original Message

---

From: Stephen Wilson <sjwil...@gmail.com>

To: Wjhonson <wjho...@aol.com> Cc: GEN-MEDIEVAL <GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com> Sent: Mon, Dec 5, 2011 8:47 am Subject: Re: George Sorrell (b. 1796) - New Gateway Ancestor

Further evidence that this branch of the family used the names "Dudley" and "Sutton" interchangeably can be found in the wills of the Dudleys of Russell Hall, several of which were reprinted in part in Miscellanea Genealogica et Heraldica (http://preview.tinyurl.com/722kre8), including

The will of "Thomas Sutton, alias Duddeley," gentleman, who made his will 3 February 1646. Mentions wife Anne Sutton, alias Duddeley; eldest son Thomas Sutton, alias Duddley; youngest son Edward Sutton, alias Duddeley; and son-in-law Thomas Baker.

The will of his wife "Ann Sutton, alias Dudley," widow of Dudley, dated 8 December 1653, proved December 1662. Mentions eldest son Thomas Sutton, alias Dudley; grandson Robert Sutton, alias Dudley; grandson Thomas Sutton, alias Dudley; grandson Farthinandoe Sutton, alias Dudley; son Edward Sutton, alias Dudley; sister Elner Smyth; daughter Ann Baker; grandson Thomas Baker; granddaughter Margaret Dudley; granddaughter Ann Sutton, alias Dudley; grandson John Sutton, alias Dudley; and daughter-in-law Margery, wife of Edward.

I believe this Thomas (d. 1646/7) to be the same as "Thomas Dudley" married to "Mary Gregson" on 13 February 1608 at Saint Edmund, Dudley. This couple had a daughter "Katherin Dudley" christened at Saint Edmund on 19 August 1610. The next recorded christening for a child of Thomas at either Saint Edmund or Saint Thomas (also in Dudley) is that of "Deoaritye Dudley" at Saint Thomas on 16 April 1615. Between 21 November 1616 and 7 December 1626 8 more children of Thomas were christened at these two parishes, including the children Thomas, Edward, and Anne mentioned in the wills above.

It would thus seem that these latter 9 children belong to the second marriage of Thomas (to Anne), and that Catherine, christened 1610, was their half-sister via their father's earlier marriage to Mary Gregson. Mary must have died sometime between her daughter Catherine's christening and the christening of Dorothy Dudley in 1615. This would most likely place Thomas Dudley's second marriage to Anne at some point between 1611 and 1614.

On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 10:56 AM, Stephen Wilson <sjwil...@gmail.com> wrote:

Doing a little more digging, I believe my source for referring to this branch of the family as "Dudley, alias Sutton" was Dean Dudley's account of the Dudleys of Russells Hall in his Supplement to the History and Henealogy of the Dudley Family (published ca. 1900). Here is a link to the pedigree on Google Books: http://preview.tinyurl.com/79w6cqk. - show quoted text - Click here to Reply

Steve Wilson

12/7/11

Other recipients: wjho...@aol.com, GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com

I agree. Happily, that is not what I have done. In searching for the father of the "Katherin Dudley," daughter of Thomas, christened at Saint Edmund, Dudley on 19 August 1610, I considered seven separate possibilities, found among the Dudleys of Dudley/Netherton, the Dudleys of Tipton/Greenhouse, and the Dudleys of Yeanwith. I could find no records related to any other Thomas Dudleys alive at the time of Katherine's christening.

1) Thomas Dudley of Netherton Hall, died ca. 17 June 1615, married to Dorothy Lascelles (d. ca. 26 Dec 1629) sometime in the early 1560s. - This couple would have been too elderly to have had a daughter born ca. 1610.

2) Thomas Dudley of Tipton, born ca. 3 September 1592, died ca. 9 January 1674, married 16 November 1612 to Katherine Sutton (daughter of Edward, Lord Dudley, and Elizabeth Tomlinson). - This couple had a daughter Katherine, christened 15 December 1631 at Saint Edmund, Dudley, who married a Woodward.

3) Thomas Dudley of Netherton Hall, born ca. 16 December 1585, died ca. 6 February 1647, grandson of #1, married ca. 1615 to Anne, who died ca. 15 September 1654. Thomas and Anne had 9 children, christened at Dudley parishes between 1615 and 1626. - More on this Thomas Dudley later.

4) Thomas Dudley, second husband of Elizabeth Gardiner, who was widow of John Dudley of Yanwath (died 1580). - This couple would have been too elderly to have a daughter born ca. 1610.

5) Thomas Dudley of Yanwath, married ? Middleton. - This couple had a daughter Katherine who married Lawrence Breres. This branch of the Dudleys had no connections to the Dudley area for four to five generations prior.

6) Thomas Dudley of Tipton, married Elizabeth Swynnerton. - This couple had children christened between 1575 and 1585, so are very unlikely to have had a daughter born ca. 1610

7) Thomas Dudley of Tipton, son of the above, born ca. 27 July 1578, died after 1652. - Likely d.s.p. sometime after 1652, when the will of his brother Edward depicts him as childless and unmarried.

Of the seven Thomas Dudleys described above, only one, the younger Thomas Dudley of Netherton (#3), seems to fit as the father of a daughter Katherine christened at Dudley in 1610.

This Thomas Dudley is known to have had a wife Anne, with whom he had 9 children christened at Dudley between 1615 and 1625. In the records of the Dudley parishes for this time period, there are only two events related to a Thomas Dudley that are not easily accounted for. The first is the marriage of a Thomas Dudley to a Mary Gregson on 13 February 1608 (Saint Edmund). The second is the christening of Katherine Dudley, daughter of Thomas, on 19 August 1610 (also Saint Edmund). I think it can reasonably be concluded that Thomas married to Mary Gregson, Thomas father of Katherine, and Thomas husband of Anne and father of 9 other children, are all the same individual.

As to whether or not this Thomas's daughter Katherine, christened 1610, was the Katherine married to William Colles at Lapworth on 3 June 1627, let us consider the possibilities.

a) Katherine, daughter of #3 above, christened 1610 at Dudley. - She would fit, both geographically and chronologically.

b) Katherine, daughter of #2 above, christened 1631 at Dudley, - Though from the right area (Dudley/Netherton being only 19 miles from Lapworth), she would not even have been born at the time of the marriage in 1627. Plus, she married a Woodward.

c) Katherine, daughter of #5 above. - Her family was from Yanwath and had no connections to the Dudley area for four or five generations before her. Plus, she married Lawrence Breres.

All other Katherine Dudleys born between 1590 and 1610 which I have encountered either died young or have marriages accounted for and no known family connections to the Stafford/Warwick/Worcester border area. I think it's safe to say that the first Katherine listed above is the only known candidate for bride of William Colles in 1627.

Do you know of any other Katherines or Thomases who might fit the facts better? - show quoted text -

Russell Hall, several of which were reprinted in part in *Miscellanea
Genealogica et Heraldica* (*http://preview.tinyurl.com/722kre8*),
including

  - The will of "Thomas Sutton, alias Duddeley," gentleman, who made <br/>
  his will 3 February 1646. Mentions wife Anne Sutton, alias Duddeley; eldest <br/>
  son Thomas Sutton, alias Duddley; youngest son Edward Sutton, alias <br/>
  Duddeley; and son-in-law Thomas Baker. <br/>
   - The will of his wife "Ann Sutton, alias Dudley," widow of Dudley, <br/>

- show quoted text -

the Dudleys of Russells Hall in his *Supplement to the History and
Henealogy of the Dudley Family* (published ca. 1900). Here is a link to
the pedigree on Google Books: *http://preview.tinyurl.com/79w6cqk*.

- show quoted text - Click here to Reply

wjhonson

12/7/11

Other recipients: sjwil...@gmail.com, GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com

That's a dangerous way to proceed. You do know that there are many many many parish registers from this time period which simply did not survive ? That's just one problem with this approach.

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Original Message

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From: Stephen Wilson <sjwil...@gmail.com> - show quoted text - Further evidence that this branch of the family used the names "Dudley" and "Sutton" interchangeably can be found in the wills of the Dudleys of Russell Hall, several of which were reprinted in part in Miscellanea Genealogica et Heraldica (http://preview.tinyurl.com/722kre8), including

The will of "Thomas Sutton, alias Duddeley," gentleman, who made his will 3 February 1646. Mentions wife Anne Sutton, alias Duddeley; eldest son Thomas Sutton, alias Duddley; youngest son Edward Sutton, alias Duddeley; and son-in-law Thomas Baker.

The will of his wife "Ann Sutton, alias Dudley," widow of Dudley, dated 8 December 1653, proved December 1662. Mentions eldest son Thomas Sutton, alias Dudley; grandson Robert Sutton, alias Dudley; grandson Thomas Sutton, alias Dudley; grandson Farthinandoe Sutton, alias Dudley; son Edward Sutton, alias Dudley; sister Elner Smyth; daughter Ann Baker; grandson Thomas Baker; granddaughter Margaret Dudley; granddaughter Ann Sutton, alias Dudley; grandson John Sutton, alias Dudley; and daughter-in-law Margery, wife of Edward.

I believe this Thomas (d. 1646/7) to be the same as "Thomas Dudley" married to "Mary Gregson" on 13 February 1608 at Saint Edmund, Dudley. This couple had a daughter "Katherin Dudley" christened at Saint Edmund on 19 August 1610. The next recorded christening for a child of Thomas at either Saint Edmund or Saint Thomas (also in Dudley) is that of "Deoaritye Dudley" at Saint Thomas on 16 April 1615. Between 21 November 1616 and 7 December 1626 8 more children of Thomas were christened at these two parishes, including the children Thomas, Edward, and Anne mentioned in the wills above.

It would thus seem that these latter 9 children belong to the second marriage of Thomas (to Anne), and that Catherine, christened 1610, was their half-sister via their father's earlier marriage to Mary Gregson. Mary must have died sometime between her daughter Catherine's christening and the christening of Dorothy Dudley in 1615. This would most likely place Thomas Dudley's second marriage to Anne at some point between 1611 and 1614.

On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 10:56 AM, Stephen Wilson <sjwil...@gmail.com> wrote:

Doing a little more digging, I believe my source for referring to this branch of the family as "Dudley, alias Sutton" was Dean Dudley's account of the Dudleys of Russells Hall in his Supplement to the History and Henealogy of the Dudley Family (published ca. 1900). Here is a link to the pedigree on Google Books: http://preview.tinyurl.com/79w6cqk. - show quoted text - Click here to Reply

Steve Wilson

12/7/11

Other recipients: wjho...@aol.com, GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com

Yes, but something or other about the law of probabilities. That's why, after several years of researching this line, I'm putting it to the list in hopes that someone might be able to think of some good sources or relevant documents to consult. I personally think that my reconstruction of the family is correct, but would like something concrete to back up my speculation. - show quoted text -