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Ramerupt-Montdidier Lineage

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It has long been assumed that Hildouin I was the husband of Hersinde and the father of Hildouin II and Manasses, Bishop of Troyes.

However, Charles Cawley, in his Medieval Lands database, cites a transcription (see Tardif, 1866--available online) of the document "Donation faites par Philippe I, a l'Abbaye de Saint-Germain de Pres, du village de Bagneux, en echange de celui de Combs" dated 1061, in Latin. The document states that "Henri I King of France had regranted Combs [a village southeast of Paris, between Paris and Melun--PW] to "Manasses nepos supradicti Hilduini comitis" just as "suus avunculus Hilduinus" had held it, noting that "Odo comes filius prefati Manassetis" now claimed the property as held by "avunculus patris eius Hilduinus"[1211]."

This ambiguous placement of the Manasses in question as the nephew or grand-nephew of Hildouin puts new light on the relationship between Hildouin I and Hersinde, mother or grandmother of this Manasses. Based on this information as well as the statement by Ramerupt historian Arbois de Jubainville, who states that the name of Hersende´s husband is not known, Cawley suggests that Hersinde may have been Hildouin's sister or may have married an unnamed brother of Hildouin.

From FMG Medieval Lands database (November 2011):

SEIGNEURS de RAMERUPT


Two siblings:

1. HILDUIN [I] (-before 956). Comte [de Montdidier]. Philippe I King of France donated the village of Bagneux to the abbey of Saint-Germain-des-Prés in exchange for Combs by charter dated 1061, which recounts that "Hugonis ducis…magnus" [Hugues "le Grand"] had granted Combs to "Hilduino…comiti de Monte qui vocatur Desiderius", who died before his benefactor (i.e. before 956), and that Henri I King of France had regranted Combs to "Manasses nepos supradicti Hilduini comitis" just as "suus avunculus Hilduinus" had held it, noting that "Odo comes filius prefati Manassetis" now claimed the property as held by "avunculus patris eius Hilduinus"[1211].

2. brother/sister . On the basis of the charter dated 1061 which is quoted above, there are two possible identities for this brother/sister. If a brother, he was the husband of Hersend Dame de Ramerupt, mother of Hilduin [II] who is shown below. If a sister, she was Hersende herself. If the word "avunculus" in the document is given its strict interpretation of maternal uncle, the latter possibility would be correct. However, such relationship terms are not consistently used in their strict linguistic sense in medieval documents. In any case, from a chronological point of view, the term must indicate great-uncle in the 1061 document.


1. --- . Arbois de Jubainville states that the name of Hersende´s husband is not known, adding that "on suppose sans preuve que c´était Hilduin comte de Ponthieu"[1212]. As noted above, one possibility is that the husband of Hersende was the brother of Hilduin [I] who is shown above. m HERSENDE Dame de Ramerupt, daughter of ---. The Historia S. Balsemii records that "la comtesse…Hersende" transported the relics of St Baussenge from the priory of Saint-Pierre d´Arcis-sur-Aube to "son château de Ramerupt dans une église bâtie à ses frais, sous l´invocation de Notre-Dame"[1213]. As noted above, one possibility is that Hersende was the sister of Hilduin [I] who is shown above.

Two children of Hersinde:

a) HILDUIN [II] (-after [992/93]). The Historia S. Balsemii and the Historia S. Bercharii name "Hilduin comte d´Arcis" as the son of "la comtesse…Hersende"[1214]. Comte d´Arcis-sur-Aube. The Chronicle of Alberic de Trois-Fontaines names "comes de Arceis et de Ramerut…Hilduinus" as brother of "episcopi Manasse Trecensi", specifying that they were "de genere, ut dicitur, Ganalonis"[1215]. The reference to "Ganalo" has not been deciphered. Seigneur de Ramerupt. The Chronicle of Alberic de Trois-Fontaines records in [992/93] that "Adzo [abbas…Dervensis monasterii]" [Adzon abbé de Montiérender] died "in peregratione transmarina", adding that he had taken with him "comitem Hilduinum de Arceis"[1216].

b) MANASSES (-991). The Chronicle of Alberic de Trois-Fontaines names "comes de Arceis et de Ramerut…Hilduinus" as brother of "episcopi Manasse Trecensi", specifying that they were "de genere, ut dicitur, Ganalonis"[1217]. Bishop of Troyes 970.


Two brothers, presumably great-nephews of Hilduin [I] who is shown above if the 1061 charter noted above is interpreted correctly, maybe sons of Hilduin [II] Seigneur de Ramerupt:

1. HILDUIN [III] (-after 1032). Arbois de Jubainville names Hilduin [II] and adds that "on peut supposer que cet Hilduin était fils" of Hilduin [I], implying that there is no primary source which confirms that they were father and son[1218]. Comte [de Montdidier]. Seigneur de Ramerupt. Robert II King of France confirmed the donation of "Manasses comes" to Chartres Notre-Dame by charter dated 4 Feb 1031, signed by "…Manasses comitis, Hilduini comitis fratris eius, filiorum eius Manassis et Hilduini, Burcardo de Montemorenciaco, Evrardi filii Hilduini de Britoglio, Amalrici de Monteforti, Milonis de Caprosa…"[1219]. - see below.

2. MANASSES (-killed in battle Ornel, near Etain 15 Dec 1037, bur Verdun St Vanne). The Genealogiæ Scriptoris Fusniacensis names "comes Suessionis et comes de Dommartin et comes de Ronaco et Manasses cui agnomen Calva-asina" as brothers of "Helduino comiti de Ramerut"[1220]. This passage names both "comes de Dommartin" and "Manasses cui agnomen Calva-asina" as brothers of "Helduini comiti de Ramerut". As shown by the charter dated 4 Feb 1031 which is quoted below, "Hilduini comitis" had a brother and a son named Manassès. A sensible interpretation of the Genealogiæ is therefore that "comes de Dammartin" (named Manassès) was the brother of Hilduin [II] and "Manasses cui agnomen Calva-asina" his son. This speculation appears to be confirmed by the charter dated 1061, under which Philippe I King of France donated the village of Bagneux to the abbey of Saint-Germain-des-Prés in exchange for Combs, which recounts that "Hugonis ducis…magnus" [Hugues "le Grand"] had granted Combs to "Hilduino…comiti de Monte qui vocatur Desiderius", who died before his benefactor (i.e. before 956), and that Henri I King of France had regranted Combs to "Manasses nepos supradicti Hilduini comitis" just as "suus avunculus Hilduinus" had held it, noting that "Odo comes filius prefati Manassetis" now claimed the property as held by "avunculus patris eius Hilduinus"[1221]. Comte de Dammartin-en-Goële. Robert II King of France confirmed the donation of "Manasses comes" to Chartres Notre-Dame by charter dated 4 Feb 1031, signed by "…Manasses comitis, Hilduini comitis fratris eius, filiorum eius Manassis et Hilduini, Burcardo de Montemorenciaco, Evrardi filii Hilduini de Britoglio, Amalrici de Monteforti, Milonis de Caprosa…"[1222].] - COMTES de DAMMARTIN.

Sources:

  • [1211] Tardif, J. (1866) Monuments historiques (Paris), 284, p. 175. Note: this contains a transcription of the document "Donation faites par Philippe I, a l'Abbaye de Saint-Germain de Pres, du village de Bagneux, en echange de celui de Combs" dated 1061, in Latin.
  • [1212] Arbois de Jubainville ´Les premiers seigneurs de Ramerupt´, p. 440, citing L´Art de vérifier les dates, Tome II, p. 751.
  • [1213] Arbois de Jubainville ´Les premiers seigneurs de Ramerupt´, p. 440, citing Historia S. Balsemii, Camuzat, N. (1610) Promptuarium sacrarum antiquitatem Tricassinæ diœcesis, fol. 336 r-v.
  • [1214] Arbois de Jubainville ´Les premiers seigneurs de Ramerupt´, p. 441, citing Historia S. Balsemii, Camuzat Promptuarium, fol. 336 r, and Historia S. Bercharii, Camuzat Promptuarium, fol. 94 v & 95 r.
  • [1215] Chronica Albrici Monachi Trium Fontium 989, MGH SS XXIII, p. 775.
  • [1216] Chronica Albrici Monachi Trium Fontium 989, MGH SS XXIII, p. 775 and RHGF X, p. 287.
  • [1217] Chronica Albrici Monachi Trium Fontium 989, MGH SS XXIII, p. 775.
  • [1218] Arbois de Jubainville ´Les premiers seigneurs de Ramerupt´, p. 441.
  • [1219] Lépinois, E. de & Merlet, L. (eds.) (1865) Cartulaire de Notre-Dame de Chartres (Chartres) ("Chartres Notre-Dame"), Tome I, XIII, p. 87.
  • [1220] Genealogiæ Scriptoris Fusniacensis 10 and 11, MGH SS XIII, p. 254.
  • [1221] Tardif, J. (1866) Monuments historiques (Paris), 284, p. 175.
  • [1222] Chartres Notre-Dame, Tome I, XIII, p. 87.