The Lords North and 17th-century North settlers in Ireland, Massachusetts and Connecticut, part 1

Started by Private User on Friday, September 16, 2011


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Private User
9/16/2011 at 7:24 AM

(Discussion in 2 parts as geni freezes with it all.)

There are a confused number of trees in, for which I bear a small share of the responsibility by unwisely accepting a merge proposal and then splitting the tree inexpertly to remove the merge. The trees have been re-merged without my agreement, apparently on 9 September and in such a way to delete my management status for Roger North.

The confusion centres on Roger North:
- Gentleman (1650-1701) Roger North Lori Lynn Wilke and Pamela Hendry
- (1638-1701) [[6000000008197444880?through=6000000013330697926]] Scott Ronald Fleischer and 3 others
- (1650-1701) Unknown Profile Adele Plunkett

and his father John North:
- (1623-d. ) [[6000000000352456065?through=6000000000352453792]] Lori Lynn Wilke and Pamela Hendry
- (deceased) [[6000000013330697926?through=6000000008197444880]] John Goodwillie
- 1612-1692 “The Cromwellian” [[6000000003874121512?through=6000000008197444880#/tab/revision]] Seán Michael Sloane Johnson and 26 others, curated by Angus Ralph George Wood-Salomon
- (Adele Plunkett does not record Roger’s father.)

There are here two rival genealogies. The Johnson genealogy has John North as a son of Dudley, 3rd Baron North. But The Life of the Right Hon. Francis North ... says that John died without issue, and mentions no Irish connection -
I have reproduced a genealogy combined from three sources at the end (John is 4b).

There are other problems also. Roger North is said to be Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. But he does not appear on this list of Lords Lieutenant:
Nor is it likely that this powerful and prestigious post would have been given to a minor Irish landowner: even if John North was a son of the 3rd Baron North, the Norths were not even leading landowners in Co. Westmeath - Roger’s eldest son Joseph leaves his wife £100 & £20 a year ( and in 1876 (i.e. before the land of Ireland was transferred to tenants) the total land in Westmeath owned by Norths amounted to 1417 acres (Land owners in Ireland: return of owners of land of one acre and upwards, House of Commons parliamentaary papers).

It is also necessary to look at the plausibility of the family histories contained in the genealogies. According to the Johnson genealogy, John North was born in Cambridgeshire, his eldest son Roger was born in Westmeath, Ireland, in 1638 and died in Ireland in 1701; the next children John, Mary, Samuel and James were born in Massachusetts in 1641-1647; the next children Thomas, Sarah, Lydia, Nathaniel and Joseph were born in Connecticut in 1649-1659; all these children died in either Massachusetts or Connecticut; meanwhile John their father went to Ireland about 1650 and established himself at Kings Court (presumably Kingscourt, Co. Cavan, and contradicting the story that he was granted land in Westmeath and King’s County); but he died in Connecticut around 1692. This requires so much crossing of the Atlantic that it is difficult to believe. I think there has been an injudicious merge, since if Roger was removed from this family it would all make sense apart from the questionable descent from Lord North.

The only source given is Origins of the North name, by Dexter North, a book so rare that neither the Library of Congress nor the British Library appears to have a copy.

9/20/2011 at 7:12 AM

John Goodwillie
9/16/2011 at 10:25 AM
The alternative genealogy of Wilke is not quite so unsatisfactory. This has John born in Yorkshire around 1623 and dying at an undetermined date in Nottinghamshire where his father came from; while Roger is born in Westmeath, Ireland around 1650 and dies there around 1701. It is compatible with John settling in Ireland, and Westmeath is where the Norths did establish themselves. On the other hand, it presents no connection with the Lords North of Guilford, who are believed to be ancestors of the Irish family in some way -

That web page presents a genealogy of the Norths starting from John, with Roger having sons Joseph, Caleb, Elizabeth, Roger, Susanna and Mary, of whom Caleb and three others come up in the Wilke and Fleischer genealogies, and Caleb alone in the Plunkett genealogy. So the problem is not Roger, it is his ancestry.

The page
reproduces a magazine article which gives fuller information on the North settlement in Westmeath.

I am hoping that those who contributed parts of this story may be able to give some sources which would enable this mess to be sorted out, and since there is a “master profile” attached to John North the curator advise how to reorganise the records. I have derived my genealogy from the Bomford site above, down to my ancestor John Roger North (c.1787-1853).

The Lord North family seems to be as follows, based on Wikipedia (W), based on Burke’s Peerage (B), and The Life of the Right Hon. Francis North, Baron Guilford ... (N):

Edward, 1st Baron North (c. 1496-1564) (W,B,N) m. (1) Alice Squier/Squire (W,B); (2) Margaret Charlsey née Butler (?-1575) (W,B)
- 1a: by (1) Roger, 2nd Baron North (1530/1-1600) (W,B,N) m. Winifred Rich (B) /Dudley née Rich (N)
-- 2a: Sir John North (?-1597) (W,B,N) m. Dorothy Dale (W,B,N)
--- 3a: Dudley, 3rd Baron North (1581/2-1665/6/7/8) (W,B,N) m. Frances Brockett/Brocket (?-1677) (W,B,N)
---- 4a: Dudley, 4th Baron North (1602-1677) (W,B,N) m. Anne Montagu (?-1680/1) (W,B,N)
---- 4b: 2nd son/John North (W,N)
---- 4c: a daughter/Dorothy North (c. 1605-1698) (W,B,N) m. (1) Richard Lennard, 13th Baron Dacre (1596-1630) (B,N); (2) Challoner Chute (B)
---- 4d: a daughter (N)
--- 3b: Roger North, sea traveller (c. 1582-c. 1652) (W,N)
-- 2b: Sir Henry North (B)
- 1b: by (1) Sir Thomas North, translator (1535-1604) (W,B,N)
- 1c: by (1) Christiana/Christian North (?-1563/4) (W,B), m. William Somerset, 3rd Earl of Worcester (c. 1527-1588/9) (W,B)
- 1d: by (1) Mary North, m. Henry/Unknown Scrope, 9th Baron Scrope of Bolton (W,B)

None of these Norths is mentioned in any of the three sources as having any Irish or American connection.

9/20/2011 at 7:13 AM

Private User

9/20/2011 at 7:14 AM

John let us keep all the discussions here, to keep it simple

9/20/2011 at 7:35 AM

Private User

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