Adélaïs, Abbess of Saint Peter's - Adelais - Posthumously born to Ermengarde?

Started by Sharon Doubell on Wednesday, March 28, 2012


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3/28/2012 at 2:44 AM

Private User has pointed out that "the information about Ermengarde's death is:
October 3, 818 - 819, Age 40 Death of Ermengarde; AngersAngers, Pays de la Loire, Neustria, Frankish Empire, Ermengarde of Hesbaye
but her daughter's birth is given as:
824 - 805, Age 40; Birth of Adélaïs, Abbess of Saint Peter's, Tours, Centre, France
I appreciate the difficulty of verifying dates from so long back, but just thought you might want to check. - Leith"

Thanks, Leith. I seem to recall a lot of complicated work on this line of profiles, so hope to get back to it when I'm finished with the Herodians. In the meantime it seems sensible to me to move Adelais' birth back to before her mother's death. Perhaps a good chance she died in childbirth, I'd imagine.

If Leith or anyone else is interested in investigating the research accuracy on this line further. PLEASE go ahead. Maybe log your findings (confirmations or changes) here, so we have a history of our research work, and avoid re-inventing the wheel.

Jump in fellow armchair historians.... :-)

4/10/2012 at 2:02 PM

I'm not sure how Adélaïs ended up as a daughter of Ermengarde. Adélaïs' ancestry is uncertain.

Traditionally there two women with the name Alpaïs. One was a daughter of Charlemagne. She married Begue, Count of Paris. The other was a daughter of Louis. She married Alberic, Count of Alsace. Charles Recker argued that the two women were one person, the Abbess of St. Peter's, daughter of Louis by an unknown wife or concubine.

Another woman, Adélaïs, is traditionally regarded as the daughter of Hugues le Méfiant and Ava de Morvois. She was wife successively of Conrad le Vieux and Robert le Fort. Some modern genealogists think there were two women, aunt and niece - an elegant solution, but there is no information either way.

I've made these changes to Geni several times in the past few years, but the line always ends up getting put back, so someone must have better information.

6/12/2012 at 2:59 AM, won't you cast your eye over this for me? I've been alerted by a user to a mismerge in this area, and managed to stop the knock on merge effect on those where I was manager going through, but some of the profiles (including this one, I think) are already on the slippery slope to being FUBARED :-)

But I haven't been working on this line for a while, and when I'm untangling suspected knots I prefer to have a wingman to keep an eye on the threads.

I can't find obvious evidence for this woman being Lothar's wife. So want to begin by disconnecting that as the possible mis-merge.

5/1/2015 at 12:39 AM

Following a message from Ard van Bergen - I am going to take another look at trying to get this profile off the frequently messed up list :-)

"Beheerders van Adélaïs (Adelaide, Aélis) de Aquitane, abbesse de Saint-Pierre
Ik benader u vanwege dit profiel:
I believe she should be merged with Aélis and that Robert I, King of France is the correct husband
She may have been confused with Adelaide of Tours as the wife of
Met vriendelijke groet,
Arie Riemer Dirk van Bergen

5/1/2015 at 1:00 AM

As this profile is the child of Louis I and Ermengard

-and Cawley's Medlands cite her as Berta, [Settipani cites charters which name Berta as the daughter of Emperor Louis[203 -]
-not Adelaide, like Wikipedia []

- and since the use of the name Adelaide appears to encourage mismerges with Adelaide of Tours (daughter of Hugh of Tours and the possible wife of Robert IV "the Strong", Margrave of Neustria)

I am therefore going to revert to Medlands and call her Berta on her profile (and add the possible Adelaide into the aka.)

Others with an interest in this profile, who might want to comment, are Justin Swanström and Söderström

5/1/2015 at 1:09 AM

Now Arie's question of whether she should be merged with Aélis is an interesting one, but I can't find the sources that suggest/confirm that Aelis was Louis' child. Do you have them, Ard van Bergen?

5/1/2015 at 2:40 AM

No, sorry, I do not have sources other than you have already (Medlands and Wikipedia; and where these disagree I prefer to believe Medlands).

Besides relying on actual sources, I also always look at consistency which in this case triggered my question yesterday. I noticed that there were two daughters of Louis I and Ermengard with the same name and husbands that also had the same name but were in fact father and son

5/3/2015 at 1:08 PM

Clearly someone made a typo and the '824 - 805' should read '804 - 805' instead.

People, please proofread your typing carefully!!!

Private User
5/3/2015 at 4:56 PM

Everyone's human. They make mistakes. Even happens in good reference books.

5/4/2015 at 1:45 AM

To which profile are you referring, Amy Anderson?

5/4/2015 at 3:10 PM

Sharon, in your initial post: "Leith Woodall has pointed out that "the information about Ermengarde's death is:
October 3, 818 - 819, Age 40 Death of Ermengarde; AngersAngers, Pays de la Loire, Neustria, Frankish Empire, Ermengarde of Hesbaye
but her daughter's birth is given as:
824 - 805, Age 40..."

Judith, yes we're only human but this is a site used by many people and we should do our best to prevent confusion. All it takes is a quick and careful read-over of what's been typed. It's a good habit to get into in any case! ;;;)

5/5/2015 at 4:45 AM

Ahh, now I understand. That post was two years' ago - hence my confusion.
Yes - changed to c 800.

It is easy to make mistakes though, and great that on a collaborative site we can all be on the research and edit team together.

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