Don't Shoot the Messenger but we no longer have a direct SA duPlessis connection to Charlemagne :-(

Started by Sharon Doubell on Sunday, June 3, 2012

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6/3/2012 at 6:41 AM

Unfortunately the depressing result of corrections on the crossover between the du Plessis & the de Richelieu lines (tracked on this discussion: http://www.geni.com/discussions/108521?msg=795093) is that the du PLessis line is no longer directly connected to Charlemagne,
as it was relying, not on the du Plessis connection, but on the de Richelieu connection.

Once we established that these two cousin Francois duPlessis: http://www.geni.com/people/Fran%C3%A7ois-II-du-Plessis-Richelieu/60... and
http://www.geni.com/people/Fran%C3%A7ois-II-du-Plessis/600000001664... had been accidentally(?) merged into one person (not just on Geni, but by the genealogical history prior to Geni), it was quickly apparent that

the de Richelieu Francois duPLessis' line to Charlemagne is through his mother; whereas our Francois du Plessis' ancestor is the de Richeliu Francois' cousin only on the paternal line.

I have put the family trees and sources onto the du Plessis project; but felt I needed to give a heads-up to all those who suddenly find the line to Charlemagne is no longer there.

Does anyone have documents under their mattress that can 'pull a rabbit out of the hat on this one'? :-(

Private User
11/24/2015 at 3:00 AM

Hi Sharon,
As explained earlier I will have to go back and scan from my book. All my sources where put on Geni but disapread years ago.☺
Juds

11/24/2015 at 4:27 AM

Great Judi. It would be really good to have them. And really great if it gets the link to Charlemagne back.

Remember, though, that last time we spoke, we found your profiles still intact - just on the cousin François du Plessis Richelieu, Lord of Richelieu, Neuville, Beçay, Vervolière & le Petitline's line.
They were still all there back to CHarlemagne, but just not on a direct line to the SA duPlessis.

You spoke about the Coertzen version - can you give it to us?

11/24/2015 at 4:54 AM

my line still is intact!

11/24/2015 at 4:58 AM

Peter is it the new SA duPLessis line to Charlemagne showing through the Mornay line that we were researching.
I wonder if it's well sourced enough to hold?

Jean Prieur du Plessis, SV/PROG is Charlemagne's 21st great grandson.
Charlemagne
→ Louis I, The Pious
his son → Gisela of Cysoing, daughter of Louis and Judith
his daughter → Berengario I, re d'Italia
her son → Gisela
his daughter → Berengar II, king of Italy
her son → Urraca
his daughter → Maud de Lorraine
her daughter → Adelheid van Leuven
her daughter → Jean de Ville
her son → Marie de Ville de la Ferté-en-Ponthieu
his daughter → Marie de Roye
her daughter → Jean V, comte de Vendôme
her son → Bouchard VI, comte de Vendôme
his son → Bouchard VII de Vendôme, seigneur de Segré
his son → Jeanne de Vendôme
his daughter → Bouchard de Mornay, seigneur de Saint Germain
her son → Charles de Mornay, seigneur de Villiers
his son → Jean de Mornay
his son → Philippe de Mornay
his son → Jacques de Mornay, Chevalier, Seigneur de Buhy
his son → Judith Anne de Mornay du Plessis
his daughter → Charles du Plessis
her son → Jean Prieur du Plessis, SV/PROG
his son

Private User
11/25/2015 at 1:14 AM

Sharon Coetzee's version is a book. I have to scan. But I will get it out today and get the line. It is laid out perfectly.
Juds

11/25/2015 at 1:45 AM

You're a star. Here's holding thumbs :-)

Private User
11/25/2015 at 2:45 AM

Hi Sharon. I e-mailed you two attachmentss. Hope you canmake something out of it.
The book is going way back and are far over 1000 pages.
Juds

11/25/2015 at 3:38 AM

Die PLESSIS-RICHELIEU geslag begin op bl. 939 en die inligting is ook verkry uit du Chesne se boek wat ons reeds breedvoerig behandel het.
Die opeenvolging van vader na seun begin by
1. Guillaume du Plessis 1 en volg dan die direkte lyn soos reeds deur ons
verskaf
2. Pierre du Plessis 1
3. Guillaume du Plessis 11
4. Pierre du Plessis 11
5. Guillaume du Plessis 111
6. Pierre du Plessis 111
7. Jean du Plessis
8. Mandè du Plessis
9. Sauvage (Silvester) du Plessis
10. François du Plessis 1
11. François du Plessis 11.
By laasgenoemde word ook vermeld dat hy getroud was met Française de
Cherge (Charge), die dogter van Joachim de Cherge en Marguerite Boisléve, ‘n huwelik wat soos reeds gemeld op 22 Maart 1541 plaasgevind het. Ook word vermeld dat daar verskeie kinders was en die minderjariges is in 1556 onder die voogdyskap van Joachim de Grailly geplaas. Die name van die kinders word egter nie verskaf nie. (Marguerite Boisléve of Boislescue volgens du Chesne). Dit bring ons dan weer by Amalia du Plesis se navorsing wat reeds gemeld is (bl. ) en die daaropvolgende geslagte
12 Jean du Plessls 11 gebore 1548,oorlede 1640
13. Charl du Plessis gebore 1600.
14. Jean Prieur du Plessis stamvader in Suid-Afrika, gebore 1638 in Poitiers en
oorlede 1708 in Suid Afrika.

Die verwante vertakking van Cardinaal Richelieu begin op bladsy 944 met Nommer 6 SAUVAGE du Plessis, broer van Pierre No. 6 hierbo, tot by Armand Jean du Plesis (Kardinaal Richelieu) die 3de kind van nommer 11 François du Plessis.

11/25/2015 at 4:08 AM

Juds, I'm going to answer in English in case my Afrikaans confuses the specifics of what I'm saying. You reply in Afrikaans.

Have a look at the Project - It agrees exactly with the Coetzee line shown above:

a.Guillaume I, Seigneur du Plessis, des Breux et de La Vervolière um 1200

b1.Pierre I Seigneur du Plessis etc

b1c1. Guillaume II Seigneur du Plessis etc

b1c1d1. Pierre II, Seigneur du Plessis etc. † um 1331

b1c1d1e1.Guillaume III, Chevalier, Seigneur du Plessis et de la Vervolière, Valignière et de Carrelière c1332 - † after 20.04/1373; ∞ Charlotte de la Celle, daughter of Jean de la Celle [Chevalier, Seneschal (bailiff) of Carcassone]

b1c1d1e1f1.Pierre III, Seigneur du Plessis, des Breux, de La Carrelière, de Forges et de Thou, *c.1360 -† 1401. Inherited the Lordships of Breux, la Carreliere and Forges, the private castle and the outhouses of Thou in the Chancellary of Angle on 18/02/1388 ∞ Ragonde Vigier BELOW IS THE SA DESCENT LINE - THAT DOES NOT LINK TO CARDINAL RICHELIEU BECAUSE THAT GOES THROUGH PIERRE'S BROTHER"S LINE:

f1g1.Jean du Plessis, ) Écuyer, seigneur du Plessis et des Breux, capitaine des Pleces de Angle et du Blanc, escurie du Roy Charles VII *c1401 – † c1466 ∞Catherine Frétart

f1g1h1 François

f1g1h2.Mandé, Seigneur du Plessis, des Breux, de Roys, de La Carrelière, de Faye et de Thou ∞ Marie, daughter of Gui, Seigneur de La Tousche

f1g1h2i1 Sauvage, Seigneur du Plessis, des Breux, de Vaux, de Roys, de La Milaudière, de La Carrelière et de Thou; ∞ I 31 Jan 1474 Françoise L'Evêque; ∞ II 15 De 1485 Jeanne, daughter of Alain de Rouyères, Seigneur de Brunhac

f1g1h2i1j1 François I., Seigneur du Plessis, des Breux, de La Milaudière, de La Carrelière et de Thou *c.1480 - † shortly bef.1545 ; ∞ Madeleine, daughter of Philippe de Champropin, Seigneur d'Oncières

f1g1h2i1j1 j1k1 François du Plessis Richelieu, Lord of Richelieu, Neuville, Beçay, Vervolière & le Petit c 1510 - †1560 ∞ Françoise de Charge, daughter of Joachim de Chergé, Seigneur de Buxeil & Marguerite de Boisleve

f1g1h2i1j1 j1k1l1 Jean Du Plessis [7 years old in 1556] *1548 -† c.1575 ∞ Judith Anne Du Plessis Du Mornay *c.1555 Buhv, Vexin

f1g1h2i1j1 j1k1l1m1 Charles Du Plessis *c.1590 - †c.1640) [Medical Surgeon in Poitiers] ∞Anne Prieur *c.1616 (Poitiers, Poitou Province)

f1g1h2i1j1 j1k1l1m1n1Guilliame du Plessis

f1g1h2i1j1 j1k1l1m1n2 Jean Prieur Du Plessis *26/04/1638 (St Liénart, Poitiers, Poitou Province) [Medical Surgeon in Poitiers. Emigrated to South Africa] ∞ c 1688 - Madeleine Menanteau * c 1668 - † between 1694 - 1700. ∞ 29 Aug 1700 at Amsterdam, The Netherlands Marie Buisset * c 1678 - † 1751

The problem is that none of these people have a direct line back to Charlemagne.

11/25/2015 at 5:01 AM

Coetzee says "Die verwante vertakking van Cardinaal Richelieu begin op bladsy 944 met Nommer 6 SAUVAGE du Plessis, broer van Pierre No. 6 hierbo, tot by Armand Jean du Plesis (Kardinaal Richelieu) die 3de kind van nommer 11 François du Plessis"

The project line agrees exactly with this as well:
a.Guillaume I, Seigneur du Plessis, des Breux et de La Vervolière um 1200

b1.Pierre I Seigneur du Plessis etc

b1c1. Guillaume II Seigneur du Plessis etc

b1c1d1. Pierre II, Seigneur du Plessis etc. † um 1331

b1c1d1e1.Guillaume III, Chevalier, Seigneur du Plessis et de la Vervolière, Valignière et de Carrelière c1332 - † after 20.04/1373; ∞ Charlotte de la Celle, daughter of Jean de la Celle [Chevalier, Seneschal (bailiff) of Carcassone]

b1c1d1e1f1.Pierre III, Seigneur du Plessis, des Breux, de La Carrelière, de Forges et de Thou, *c.1360 -† 1401. Inherited the Lordships of Breux, la Carreliere and Forges, the private castle and the outhouses of Thou in the Chancellary of Angle on 18/02/1388 ∞ Ragonde Vigier SA DESCENT LINE BRANCHES FROM HERE (see post above)

b1c1d1e1f2.Sauvage, † 1409, Seigneur de La Vervolière, de La Valinière et de Favardines ∞ 10. Juli 1388 Isabeau, Dame de Belarbe, † 1401, Tochter von Jean Le Groing, Seigneur de La Mothe-au-Groing NON-SA DESCENT LINE BRANCHES FROM HERE TO CARDINAL DE RICHELIEU (Who is the descendant of Charlemagne)

f2g1.Sauvage

f2g2.Geoffroi, Seigneur de La Vervolière, de La Valinière, du Petit-Puy et de Hautmont; ∞ Perrine, Dame de Richelieu, Tochter von Jean de Clérembault, Seigneur de Richelieu

f2g2.h1. François I., Seigneur de Richelieu, de Beçay, de La Vervolière et du Petit-Puy ∞ 21. November 1456 Renée, Tochter von Jacques Eveillechien, Seigneur de Saumoussay

f2g2.h1.i1.François II., Seigneur de Richelieu, de Beçay, de La Vervolière, du Petit-Puy et de Neufville; ∞ I 25. Januar 1489 Guyonne, Tochter von Jean, Seigneur de Brée (Stammliste der Montmorency); ∞ II 31. März 1506 Anne, Dame du Chillou, Tochter von Guyon, Seigneur du Chillou. (Haus Le Roy)

f2g2.h1.i1.j1.(I) Aymée; ∞ Léon de Barbançois, Seigneur de Sarzay.

f2g2.h1.i1.j2. (I) Jeanne; ∞ 28. Oktober 1514 Mathurin du Theil, Seigneur de Frène.

f2g2.h1.i1.j3. (I) Renée

f2g2.h1.i1.j4. (II) Louis I., Seigneur de Richelieu, de Beçay, du Chillou et de La Vervolière, † 1551; ∞ 16. Januar 1542 Françoise, Tochter von Antoine, Seigneur de Saint-Amand (Haus Rochechouart).

f2g2.h1.i1.j4.k1. Louis II., X 1555, Seigneur de Richelieu, de Beçay, du Chillou et de La Vervolière,

f2g2.h1.i1.j4.k2. François III du Plessis, seigneur de Richelieu † 10. Juli 1590; ∞ Susanne, Tochter von François, Seigneur du Boissier (Haus La Porte)

f2g2.h1.i1.j4.k2.l1. Henri, X 1619, Seigneur de Richelieu, de Beçay, du Chillou et de La Vervolière; ∞ Marguerite Guyot, Dame d'Ansac.

f2g2.h1.i1.j4.k2.l2. Alphonse-Louis, * 1582, † 24. März 1653, genannt Le Cardinal de Lyon, Erzbischof von Aix 27. April 1626-27. November 1628, dann Erzbischof von Lyon 27. November 1628-24. März 1653, Kardinal 19. November 1629, 24. März 1632-24. März 1653 Großalmosenier von Frankreich

f2g2.h1.i1.j4.k2.l3. Armand Jean du Plessis, Cardinal de Richelieu * 5. September 1585, Bischof von Luçon 18. Dezember 1606-4. Dezember 1642, Kardinal 5. September 1622, August 1631, Duc de Richelieu, Marquis und Juli 1634, Duc de Fronsac, Pair de France (Patentbrief für Richelieu August 1631, für Fronsac Juli 1634, registriert für Richelieu 4. September 1631, für Fronsac 5. Juli 1634)

11/25/2015 at 5:21 AM

So, everything on the project agrees with what Coetzee says in the extracts you've sent me.
I don't know if Coetzee says elsewhere that the SA duPLessis goes DIRECTLY back to Charlemagne, but that requires

f1g1h2i1j1 j1k1 François du Plessis Richelieu, Lord of Richelieu, Neuville, Beçay, Vervolière & le Petit c 1510 - †1560 ∞ Françoise de Charge, daughter of Joachim de Chergé, Seigneur de Buxeil & Marguerite de Boisleve (the SA ancestor)

to be the same man as:
f2g2.h1.i1.j4.k2. François III du Plessis, seigneur de Richelieu † 10. Juli 1590; ∞ Susanne, Tochter von François, Seigneur du Boissier (Haus La Porte) (Cardinal Richelieu's father)

But they are obviously not the same man, and only Cardinal Richelieu's father (f2g2.h1.i1.j4.k2. François III du Plessis d1590) has a direct line back to Charlemagne, not the SA line.

Private User
11/26/2015 at 2:44 AM

Hi Sharon ou nig,
As soon as all messes have been sorted out I will go on there.
I do know there were even one that was with a Farao.☺
But as said, lots of reading first.
Will e-mail you more later.
I will specifically look for those names. Maybe in the index. Hold thumbs.

11/26/2015 at 8:44 AM

:-) I don't think these profiles are messed up?

1/21/2016 at 1:34 AM

Hi Sharon, Judith. Ek volg hierdie gesprek met groot belangstelling. Verstaan ek die nuutste inligting korrek:
- lyk of die SA du Plessis wel van 'n "De Richelieu' afstam maar nie nie vanaf "Charlemagne" nie
- Dan wil ek graag weet of die "tree" soos gebubliseer opgedateer is.
- Ek is ook baie geinteresseer in die 1e Du Plessis. die huidige stamboom waar ek aan gekoppel is gaan terug na Tor de Belvior, is hierdie inligting betroubaar?
jammer vir die klomp vrae

Marinus du Plessis

Private User
1/21/2016 at 5:05 AM

Hi marthinus en Sharon. Die boek wat ek gebruik en as die beste navorsing terug tot baie ver in die verlede kan hier bestel word in CD formaat.
http://www.cdbooks-r-us.com/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=74

Groete
Judi

1/21/2016 at 5:48 AM

Marthinus, I've sent you an invite to the duPlessis Family Project where we've spent weeks and weeks over the past couple of years untangling the erroneous line via Cardinal deRichelieu to Charlemagne that was on GEni.
(Only afterwards did we hear that it had been well-known as an SA fraud in genealogical circles, and we actually hadn't proved a lot that was new:-) Judi, you may have forgotten that you were part of that.

The bulk of the research work - if I recall correctly - is in this Discussion:
http://www.geni.com/discussions/108521?msg=795093&page=1

A lot of the work was done by Alexander (Alex) Armenis, Nicola Bensimon, Private User, Private User, Alma Lubbe and myself.

Also involved were: Private User, Maria Magdalena (Marietjie) Pienaar du Plessis, Private User, Private User and others I'm sure I've left out - it was a while ago.

The upshot is that the result wasn't ambiguous. The data had clearly been fudged. (Not surprising - since Cardinal de Richelieu was a leading persecutor of Huguenots)

Judi, if there is info on that source that suggests otherwise, please post it and I promise we'll start looking at this again. The aim is accuracy, not being right.

Marthinus, give me a minute to translate into Afrikaans.

1/21/2016 at 5:59 AM

Marthinus. Skies my Afrikaans.
Ek het jou uitgenooi by die du PLessis FAmilie Projek http://www.geni.com/projects/Family-Familie-du-Plessis/10778

= Dan wil ek graag weet of die "tree" soos gebubliseer opgedateer is.= Dit is 'n goeie vraag. Ek weet nie.

=terug na Tor de Belvior, is hierdie inligting betroubaar?= Miskien is dit tyd vir nog 'n Navorsing Mob? Wil jy dit lei? Ek is daar :-)

1/24/2016 at 1:31 AM

Sharon ek het biki te min tyd op die oomblik. Iets wat ek wel dink na gekyk kan word is na du plessis in brittanje bv die earl of warwick ens. Dit lyk of hulle link na ons geslagslyn in frankryk. Ek wonder egter oor die Belvoir oorsprong van Tor wat in Brittanje is maar heelwat vroeer as warwick. Weet nie of iemand al hierna gekyk het nie?
Marinus
I really dont mind following the discussion in English

1/24/2016 at 2:40 AM

Marthinus - ek probeer om my Afrikaans te verbeter:-)
Post die skakels vir die profiele hier.
Selfs as ons net 'n Bespreking van elkeen van hulle begin - met areas wat nagevors moet word: Ons kan altyd terug gaan wanneer ons meer tyd het.

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