Yes, and they connect directly to the FAMILY of Captain John RICE HUGHES of Wales....I traced that lineage back to the GRIFFETHS couple of weeks ago, which adds to the speculation that he and my Perrott are the same person....One of the coincidences is that a john Rice was found nearly starved to death at the Trading post where Nickitti and and her son were trading in the late 1600's....and a RICE HUGHES had sponsored a son of perrott's from wales in 1652....listing the city as ???? likely the wilderness trading post on the James RIVER.... I would very much like to see the Y chromosme data on the the descendent male line & if the POLANDS connect....I tell you the bone structure is there. fyi DCR 1948
LOL. Dale, you know I don't believe the bone structure. And, I disagree with most of your conclusions so far. But, that doesn't stop me from wanting you to succeed and prove me wrong. If you do succeed, I'll have one of the best genealogy stories ever, and I'll enjoy telling everyone in detail what an idiot I was to doubt you.
Jsutin, no offense taken whatever....Im still in shock over this myself...Do you recall my telling Kris that My 14th ggrandfather William ap Rhys 1521 was born to the Lavendar of Princess Mary TUDOR? AND his education, clothing, and Table were paid for by the Princess Mary, as recorded in her housdhold expnese accounts published on Line? The point I am leading to is that QUEEN Mary granted this person with whom she grew up a Coat of ARMS May 2, 1552, which included the sliced Pomegranite of her Mother, Katherine of CASTILE.....I am not making this up, I don't have to....I discovered all within the last two years on line research....so the bone structure is what it is and understanding how is the fun of discovery....The Lovely MS.O'Donnel who contacted me today is 16 generations removed yet she could easily pass for my Daughters elder sister....There is gold to be mined in the Faces of person generations apart with the PEDIGREE I've described....so March onward I do believe in your base of wisdom....but clearly we have a point of contention over the power of RANDOMNESS....Henry TUDOR was a very large person in height as I've read...and her sons are 6ft 6in....a full head more tall than I or my brothers.... yet the face does not lie....nor the PEDIGREE, as it's now a matter of clear record except for once piece of paper on the Maternity of John RICE 1624. I'll take my odds over RANDOM occurance any DAY! BEST REGARDS hope to see you in person some day....I think you may want to collect your beer or beverage from me at least! YES? DCR 1948
Justin, the site i finally found with a clear listing of the Noble tribes of WALES show 6 Noble or Royal Familes and 15 noble/common family's is that appropriate designation?
I. Gwnedd: Gruffeydd ap Cynan
2. Deheubarth: Rhys ap Tewdwr
3. Powys: Bleddyn ap Cynfyn
4. Rhwng Gwy ag Hafren or Maelienydd: Elystan Glodrudd
5. Morgannwg: Iestyn ap Gwrgant
6. Gwent: YnYr
15 common tribes or nobles
In which Nuber 8 enumerates the Tribe for the Tudors as : Mrachudd ap Cynan of Creonfranshire and Denbigshire? Is this close enough to be recognised or is there a fundamental error here? DCR 1948
What do I need to clairify the Family story of Perrott ap Rice 1600 bringing the abandoned son of EDMUND and Thomasine Frost Rice back to them in 1642? I show them leaving John Rice 1624 behind in East ANglia 1638 and at the start of the ENGLISH CIVIL WAR Perrott disappears faking his own death, before his own father is dead....The Tamzin story is perfectly logical with some sort of meeing in STEADHAM on the Channel Coast....and the aquistion of a Merchant Ship for 700 lbs or $1.3 Million in todays money....TAMZIN was having a child every 21 months with EMuND but from 1622 tp 1626 that rhythem is broken!
John Rice 1624 born to Tamzin and Perrott is abandoned by Edmund 1638 and Perrott reappears as his DEAD brother Captain John Rice a Cavillier of the ENGLISH ARMY and delivers the 16 year old back to his mother....Edmund banishes him to the FAR FAR WEST settlement of FRAMINGHAM and the only way in according to Ms. ERiCA is to be born into the group or recognized by the group as belonging there....We know he swears an Oath there 1642 and Marries a Puritan girl born in DEDHAM in Sept. 1649....The ERA list two John Rices in an around the Puritan enclave where EDMuND is a big deal....but they make clear they are not blood related to EDMUND....then one of them goes away leaving only the 16 year old who works for his father in Law Wm? Hackley of DEDHAM marying in Sept 1649....a recognized member and a PURITAN.
My description Comports with the reality as recorded in Historical doccuments....and the one I know I saw had EDMUNDS sons and John's name at the top of an Oath taken in July 1642 to FRAMINGHAM....Would you say that's imaginary or Plausible as I've laid it out? DCR 1948
Dale I'm sorry to interject the very informative discussion you're having but I just can't wrap my mind around is Welsh barons becoming obscure, simple Puritan yeoman farmers in frontier America.
John Rice b 1624 of Dedham likely never even heard of Edmund Rice, who was a far more successful landowner than he was, and John did not live near Subury or Framingham. Wales is nowhere near Essex, England. How could a hard working and constantly pregnant colonial farm woman even meet a rich man like Perrot Rice?
Couldn't it be another Tamzin (Thomasina) in the story?
Hello Ms. Erica, To answer your questions and I take them seriously: Perrott DID not become a Puritan....He simply met up with one at a Port City nearest to the EDMUND RICE home of STEADHAM....Pick one, I don't know which one but STEADHAM was not that far from the CHANNEL...People have always made their way to the Beaches on the CHannel Side..... SECONDLY: The Family of EDMUND RICE is not nailed down but my ancestor had two wives one branch led to Perrott via John RICE II andKath. Perrott....the second Wife: Thomasine Minn/Myall leads to Henry T RICE 1555 and Thomas H. RICE 1558 both were married to the same woman, Margaret Baker....I submit because of the Pregnancy Margaret had with EDMUND RICE.....That's the story in the RICE ANCESTORY Pages and Thomas took his former sister in law as wife after Henry T. DIvorced her. Thus the related ness is via William Rice 1521....and the Money Flowed from His Contact with Princess Mary Tudor who granted him his Patent of Nobility May 2, 1555. Which included, fyi the Pomegranite on her mother's Coat of ARMS.....the Link is Henry Tudor and the Lanudress in the Household of Princess Mary. That is the Aural History, that is also doccumented in the Marriages of the sons of William 1521. Lastly: John Rice 1624 was abandoned 1638 at age 14 and the debt that Perrott incurred in obtaining a merchant ship accounts for the 700 lbs that he owed....His brother Edward accompanied he and young John Rice 1624 and after dropping the boy off in Ma. returning him to his Mother: He was sent inland by EDMUND to keep him out of his Puritan Life....the sin of his birth being too much to bare I suppose....for such a prominent man....Thus it 's Young John who does indeed Marry into the Puritan Community after laboring 7 years for his father in law.... Working his way EAST from his OATH taken at FRAMINGHAM July 1642. The Framingham community is the farthest Edmund could get his 1/2 son away from he and TAMZINE.
Perrott and Edward leave Ma. and resurface in NEW YOrK In Late October my family records indicated they went into Indian Territory to clear land and homestead....or work on lands begun by others but run out...."the snow was chest deep to the horses as they broke through the forrest of the Hampton's where they indeed had land .....so land records should be readily available to verify this portion of the story....My ancestor Captain John Rice, a Cavalier comports with the story of Rice Hughes the Trader on the James River....and I am hoping to verify the connections by DNA Y chromosome of the descendnts of that family.... Thus John Rice (aka Perrot) Sells his ship to establish the trading post....and my ANCESTOR's Son also named EDWARD continues in the TRADE of supplies, English copper, cloth, Rum and Slaves out of James City where Perrott has set up his trading post with Nickitti or some other native woman in his company....the stories are quite clear that this TRADER was a Captain and Cavalier but they intentionally gave his nationality as Scotts but the ANCESTORy of the Hughes family which was connected to the RICE Story from the exicution of Griffeth Rice and His man Hughes goes back long before 1531....They share the Griffeth ancestory with TRADER Hughes.....Is how Im understanding this tangle....With Perrott living out of sight, in the Woods of the James RIVER near Otter Lake, named for ancestors Joan Otter and Robert Rice of 1540.......This is what needs to be verified...by dates of sales of lands and we too have the John Rice found nearly starved to death at the Trading Post about 1680....recalling that Hughes Rice of Virginia River location unknown brought a son of Perrott born 1635 to James City 1652 at age 17, ostensibly to help on the trading post....Im very comfortable with the general story while admitting that the details need to be fleshed out, but first duties in an investigation is to form a working THEORY and see if there are coroborating evidences....The last one I nailed down was that The TRADER HUGHES arrived with a merchant ship and sold it to set up his trading post....I hope this clairifies my story....TAMZIN RICE is the woman involved and it's the testimoney of my FAther that
Con't: states flatly her name was WAS TAMZIN RICE: Her being in the family WAY caused a Huge ROWE in the family....I must THANK YOU publically for your very important questions and contributions to the working theory which developed out of thinking your questions through, particulary about the nature of the Puritan Community.....Remember: two years ago I had nothing of this theory worked out.....Didn't know John Rice was in DEDHAM and what that means as far as acceptence....Which prompted me to examine the story of Trader John Rice.....None of that had surfaced until I came to this site: Thus the questions you posed prompted my deeper querry....and continues to prompt me..... I mistated the investigavie RULE: We only go where evidence leads, because to verify that which is imagined is a dead end and usually incorrect.....this story is where the eveidence leads fyi DALE C. Rice 1948 Nebraska Rices
My father's pronunciation was TAMZIN, She was the Wife a prominent man in the FAMILY so that fits the EDMUND THomasine FRost RELATIONSHIP and the son born to TAMZIN would likely be JOhn RICE 1624.
1) Marriage of Alswyn Martin to Daffid ap RHys ca 1490 (Daffid mother= Jonnet Mathews) one of 9 familys of Sir Rhys ap Thomas
2) 1500 Alswyn daughter = Jonnet ap Rhys Jenkins born
3) Alswyn or Jonnet, is working in the Lavandar position as asst. to BEATRICE figure & goes to FRANCE with household of RHys ap Thomas
4) The Field of Cloth of Gold is July 1520
5) Birth after March 15 9mos= March 15-31 1521
6) entries in Princess Mary Tudor's household expneses for Wm/Henry April/1538 amd August 1538....there are earlier ones too.
7)William is called Harry in these expense accounts so a nick name in
8)1528 William becomes a GRoom to Princess Mary while his father Daffid is elevated to Wine Seward
9) William is assigned various positon in the Household of Princess Mary but when he comes of age and Marries 1538 he's a lower level houshold worker and marries first Elizibeth Latimer to whom is born John Rice II about 1540-41 He goes onto Marry Katherine Perrott of Gogerddan = Thomas ap Rice 1570 = Perrott ap Rice 1600
The Second family of William ap Rice of Prnicess Mary Houshold= Thomasine Minn Myall1542 after Latimer passes in child bed.
1) We see children born to Minn/Myall 1555= Henry Thomas Rice
1558 Thomas Henry Rice Robert Rice 1580.
2) I would have to research the Marriage date for Henry T. and Margaret BAKER but believed to be 1578 to 1580.
The children born to Margaret BAker most likely includes Robert 1580 and 14 years later we have EDMUND born under clouded Paternity....since Thomas Henry marrys her shortly after this he could be a possible father....remembering it's only Henry T. Rice ruled out as the DNA father of Edmund....Thomas H. Rice may have clouded paternity with Minn Myall to explain why the DNA's are so differnt....Cant say for shure....But
4) 1618 Edmund grows up and marries Thomasine Frost age 22
5) 1623 Thomasine Rice aka TAMZIN meets up with Perrott age 23
6)John Rice 1624 birth records are obscured by registering him in another county away from Edmund/Thomasine's people: we don't know how the child was raised or by whom....perhaps in the uncles care
7) Perrott marries Margaret Middleton and has at least 8 children with her, the last born 1637, who emigrates to James City 1652 under the sponsorship of "Hughes RICE" address ????on the James River no doubt.
8) when Edmund and Thomasine emigrate the support stops for John Rice 1638
9) 1639 makes his way to Biological Father Perrott just before the Start of the ENlish Civil WAR....
10) Perrott is expected to support the King and elects to flee the country assuming the Name of his dead Brother John Rice 1600 cavalier in the Kings Army married to the Rebecca Howell of earlier days.
11) Thomas Rice 1570 is still living and is a JP for TENBY and crafts the legal doccuments to have Perrott disappear and have the identy of his now dead brother killed in action 1638. Unwilling to sacrafice another son the king he does this to cover his son Perrot's escape.
12) The Merchant ship is purchased sometime between 1623 and 1640 accounting for how Perrott met up with Thomasine Rice aka TAMZIN on the Channel coast.
13) 1640 Perrott departs with Edward his brother born 1600 and son John Rice 1624 for America but first must go to Africa for Slaves, and over to BArbados to pick up Rum and Sugar heading north to Ma. to drop of now 16 year old John Rice to Thomasine and Edmund Rice in 1641 or 42....
14) July 1642 John Rice is pushed out of sight to Framingham and takes his oath of service to the city and is accepted because his Parent is a Puritan Woman, and her husband is a freeman land owner by 1642. DCR 1948
This is the page from Pope's Pioneers of Massachusetts, before 1650 arrivers, all thought to be UN related families then (and still the case as far as I know)
1) Edmund Rice of Sudbury
2) John Rice of Dedham
3) Philip Rice of Boston
4) Richard Rice of Cambridge & Concord (that's my line through daughter Abigail)
5) Robert Rice of Boston
6) unknown widow Rice, married Miles Tarne of Boston next
Judy can tell you more about the distances involved, even today on Route 128
The story of TAMZIN includes the behavior that a man who would leave her son behind is the same kind to bannish him as far west as he could in the town, Sudburry where he has influance....a 16 year old could not get into Framingham with out the direction EDMUND, you've made that clear to me...John Rice 1624 age 16 swears his Oath in the Town his 1/2 father told him to go to....For all we know he could have been in the houshold back in England and would do as he was told....The Names of his half brothers are on the same page....no other John Rices in the AREA at that time....differing families I'll grant you but ERA said the two John Rices in SUdburry were not DNA connected to EDMUND....Story hangs together. in my view...DCR 1948
Ms. Howtown, I am simply telling you what the evidence points to, I did not every say I could PROVE this!!! Comparing the names is a good idea, perhaps you can point me to a list....Rembmering the humanity of a Child seeking his parent, such as they are and moving to the next community coloser is logical, especially if he had seen Ann Hackley at a joint meeting of the believers....Just because he started in Framingham after a sea journey, does not mean he had to spend the rest of his life there...indeed the behavior fits a child wanting/longing to be near his people and and a less than receptive Puritan Father with sin on his mind, was less than accomodating....That's what real people do, they hurt each other out of their own pride and willfulness....This is the working theory about John Rice 1624 and how he made his way to America, Last October, I had nothing like this.....it has all eveolved from the evidence and history we have brought forward here....and for that i very grateful....DCR 1948
I linked the source in the previous message, here it is again
You could not take the Oath of Fidelity until you were legally of age - 21 I believe, could have been older. Same as any other legal contract or compact, including marriage, voting rights and property ownership, even now.
If John Rice of Dedham was born in or about 1624, he was "underage" in 1642, so he cannot be the same John Rice as the one in Framingham.
Well now that's a problem...Don' know who John Rice was in Framingham....but we do know that ERA has two John Rices in Tamzin's town and neither one was blood related to Edmund....Will have to find reference to another John Rice added to their family....could be why so many sites show him as being EDMUNDS Son, the assumption being that he must be since he was in town 1642 to 1644......Bares digging....Good call. DCR 1948
Couple of issues we need to Hammer out....John Rice and Ann Hackley Married September 1649. Their first child, John was born August 26, 1650.
Second: The doccument you sited states that EDMUND had 8 children and two younger children with Mercy Hurd at the time of his Probate.....Does that mean John Rice 1624 was being counted with the eight, and if so, he would have been living among them after being delivered....You have better data on the names and dates of birth....so are there 8 with or 8 without John? DCR1948
Edmund Rice did not have a child named John.
The document I linked listed the known Rice families, who were, as far as Pope knew, unrelated, in alphabetical order by first name under the general heading of RICE.
In other words, my ancestor, Richard Rice, has his family listed under him. He follows Philip Rice.
There was an assumption made by some researchers (not Pope) that John of Dedham was related to Edmund. As you know that has been disproved.
There was an Oath taken at Framingham in 1645. I believe Edmund Rice's son Henry signed it.
There was an Oath taken at Dedham in 1636. John Rice is not listed nor, I believe, is any other Rice. Presumably this is before he arrived in Dedham, and in any event would have been too young.
Dale and Erica,
The above exchange raised a question in my mind. If military service in colonial militias was commonly all men between 16 and 60, isn't it possible that that the age for taking an oath might have been younger? Would the various settlements really have required that men serve in the local militia without taking an oath? And -- didn't I see somewhere an age limit that surprised me by being less than 21?
So, I did what any of us would do. A Google search. I found this:
Look at page 19. There is ordinance 1634 at Cambridge that sets the age at 16. And an ordinance 1634 at Boston that sets the age at 20.
Dale, I don't think it will be possible to guess about the rule at Dedham. You will have to search Dedham Town Records to find the ordinance that authorized the oath and defined who would take it.
I think it is not credible that the age for taking the oath could ever have been less than 16. If John Rice's younger brother took the oath at the same time, then that brother must have been at least 16.
You should consider the marriage date as well. Why did John wait seven years to get married?
That is interesting. This is similar to other google results for Dedham/ Freeman (although I should really be looking for MY Rice great grandfather!)
Michael took the Oath of Allegiance May 13, 1640 and was admitted a freedman at Dedham, May 13, 1642.
"Before a member of society could exercise the right of suffrage, or hold any public office, he must be made a 'freeman' by the general of quarterly court. To become such he was required to produce evidence that he was a respectable member of some Congregational church." "In 1631, a test was invented which required all freemen to be church-members. This was upon the first appearance of a dissent in regard to religious opinions. But even this test, in the public opinion, required great caution, as in 1632 it was agreed that a civil magistrate should not be an elder in the church." "This regulation was so far modified by Royal order in 1664, as to allow individuals to be made Freemen, who could obtain certificates of their being correct in doctrine and conduct, from clergymen acquainted with them."
 "Early 'Freemen' in New England"
 Bentley, "Description of Salem, 1 Colls, Mass. Hist. Society", vi. 236.
 Felt, History of Ipswich, p. 18
My understanding is that the record of John Rice is his marriage record in (I stand corrected) 1649 to Ann Hackley.
I'm wrong - John Rice signed the Dedham Covenant, but I can't tell what year. He's listed quite a bit in the index and here's the Covenant page direct link:
The Early records of the town of Dedham, Massachusetts, 1636-1659
edited by the town clerk, Don Gleason Hill
Published 1892 by Printed at office of the Dedham Transcript in Dedham, Mass . Written in English.