Which is which and who is who and where do they belong in the tree?

Started by John Smith on Monday, January 6, 2014
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1/6/2014 at 8:55 AM

This line really needs a lot of work. I'd be happy to pitch in but it will have to be slowly.

1/7/2014 at 9:17 AM

Looking at this tree, one place to start would be to disconnect Aubrey de Vere, I, Sheriff of Berkshire from his parents. His origin is unknown, as described in the About section of his profile.


1/7/2014 at 10:21 AM

In this case "obscure" is a polite way of saying there are so many guesses that no one wants to take the time to go through them all ;)

1/7/2014 at 10:55 AM

Okay, I made that change. Next we should look at Béatrix (I) de Bourbourg, châtelaine de Bourbourg, héritière de Guînes. This is part of clearing out the underbrush so we can tackle the main problems (which should fall into place).

This Béatrix should be Béatrix of Guînes. The About section shows that at some point she has been merged with a different Beatrice, the wife of Robert Wymarc. She has also been either confused with or merged with the Béatrix who was wife of Baudouin of Ardres.


1/7/2014 at 6:28 PM

Why did the 'de vere' who published the book, but; had an entirely different last name, feel he was the next in line in the de vere lineage ?
is his profile a public one, now, that he is dead ?

1/7/2014 at 6:36 PM

Do you mean HRH Nicholas de Vere von Drakenberg? His birth name was Weir, from an old Scottish family. He had a theory that the Weirs were originally de Veres, but so far no serious scholar has accepted his theory. As far as I can discover his only evidence was the similarity of the two names.

1/10/2014 at 9:53 PM


Tracing, Nicholas Thomas Logan Weir -aka- "HRH Prince Nicholas de Vere von Drakenburg" back along the (his) patralineal line back to "Archibald Weir (Thompson)"- (then crossing to the matralineal line)-"Margaret Weir" and then, continuing back along the (her) patralineal line, traces back to:

"Thomas Weir of Blackwood" and his patralineal line is, directly, traced back to "Alberic / Aubrey de Vere--Agnes of Essex"

Where does Nick's lineal 'theory' begin and end?

1/10/2014 at 9:54 PM

Alberic / Aubrey de Vere--Agnes of Essex
Ralph de Vere
Baltradus de Weir (Ware)
Walter de Vere
Rudolphus de Vere (weir)
Thomas de Vere
Richardus de Vere (weir)
Thomas de Vere
Buan Weir
Rothaldus l Weir
Thomas Weir
Robert Weir
Thomas Weir of Blackwood--Aegida Somerville
Duncan Weir
James Weir of Blackwood--Euphemia Weir of Blackwood (Hamilton)
William Weir of Stonebyres--Elizabeth Hamilton
Thomas Weir of Kirkton--Jean Weir of Kirkton (Somerville)
Major Thomas Weir
Thomas Weir
John Weir
Andrew Weir
Margaret Weir--Archibald Weir (Thompson)
Robert Weir--Rachael Weir (Stewart)
Robert Weir--Sarah Weir (Graham)
John Weir--Mary Weir (Logan)
Thomas Logan Weir--Anne Grant Weir (Macdonnell)
James Weir--Natalie Weir (Hopgood)
Nicholas Thomas Logan Weir

1/11/2014 at 10:28 AM

is this also a dragon lineage - http://www.geschichte-online.info/path_inhalt/Thueringen.pdf

Hoger, King of the Thüringians-
Hoger, King of the Thüringians is your 54th great grandfather.
or, is part of it - The Queen Bees ?

1/11/2014 at 10:44 AM

Understanding and tracing Dragon descent, is not always easy, based on lineal descent alone- when many records are missing, destroyed or never existed at all.

Here are some clues to the origins of derkesthai heritage:

Historical Origins

• In medieval times there were kingdoms, called White Serbia and White Croatia, located not in the Balkan peninsula but in Bohemia and southeastern Germany. The signfificance of white in Slavic languages for proper names such as White Russia is western. White Serbia and White Croatia were kingdoms established by Sarmatians over Slavic populations. The Sarmatian ruling class was eventually assimilated into the Slavic culture and some of the Serbians and Croatian moved into the Balkans where their descendants now live. However not all migrated. There are remnants of the Slavic White Serb population of eastern Germany still there, known as Sorbs or Wends.

• Some the aristocratic families of Poland were founded by Sarmatians and the family crests reflect this by the appearance of particular symbol, a sort of hash mark.

• The principal tribe of the Sarmatians in later history was the Alans. The Alans show up in odd places.

• The Roman Empire brought Alans into southern France to help control the Celts.

• Marco Polo wrote of finding a town of ten thousand Alans in South China in his journeys.

• One branch of the Alans took refuge in the Caucasus Mountains where they became known as the Ossetes. Joseph (Stalin) Djugashvili's Father was Osset and his mother was Georgian, so Stalin was half Sarmatian.

• The Sarmatians adopted the dragon motif from the Han Empire of China. The image of the dragon was brought to Britain when the Roman Emperor Marcus Aureleus sent 5500 Sarmatian warriors to Britain to guard against the attacks by the Celts of northern Britain. This was in the third century A.D. This may have been the source of the legends of King Arthur. Arthur's father was Uther Pendragon. Pendragon means dragon head which came from the image of a dragon's head which he carried on his shield. The altar in the Sarmatian's religion seems to have been a sword embedded in a stone.

1/11/2014 at 10:56 AM

The 'Out of Africa' genetic theories are nonsense when you find genealogical records tracing back thousands of years in India. Genealogical record was kept on small slabs and stales of stone with unbroken lines of three bloodlines of the Royal house of India tracing back over 35,000 years. The records continue back further but many of the slabs and stales have been damaged by time, stolen by thieves or destroyed by wars.

1/11/2014 at 11:10 AM

This discovery is going to change everything we 'think' we know about our genetic heritage:


1/11/2014 at 11:21 AM

HI Ssusan, I think the Thuringians were more one of those german mixture of blood from ostrogoths+goths=saxons+francs at the time of Attila, some fighting togheter and some against huns, about the III/IV century. We can see Hoger here, between goths of the 44th and ostrogoths of the 46th generations:
Gjúki, King of the Goths, is your 44th great grandfather Gjúki, King of the Goths
Valaravans dos Ostrogodos, 330-409, Scythia, presente Ukaine, is your 45th great grandfather Valaravans
Marcus Aurelius, Roman Emperor, is your 45th great grandfather Marcus Aurelius, Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius, Roman Emperor

Marcus Aurelius, Roman Emperor, is your 45th great grandfather Marcus Aurelius, Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius, Roman Emperor
Annia Galeria Faustina Minor, wife of Marcus Aurelius, Roman Emperor, is your 45th great grandmother Annia Galeria Faustina Minor, Roman Empress
Gaius Asinius Quadratus Protimus, is your 45th great grandfather Gaius Asinius Quadratus Protimus
Heytir Heytsson, Norway, 680, is your 45th great grandfather Heytir Heytsson
Crioda, King of the West Saxons, is your 45th great grandfather Crioda, King of West Saxons Crioda, King of West Saxons
Hoger, King of the Thüringians, is your 45th great grandfather Hoger, King of the Thüringians
Teutomer, a Frankish general, is your 45th great grandfather Teutomer, a Frankish general
Imaam Mudrika ('Amr) bin Imaam Ilyaas, estimated before 233, Mecca, Saudi Arabia, is your 45th great grandfather Mudrikah (Amir) بن إلياس
Iotapa of Emesa is your 45th great grandmother Iotape of Emesa, Queen of Nabataea
Uldin, King of the Huns, is your 45th great grandfather Uldin, King of the Huns
Saint Eucherius, Bishop of Lyons is your 45th great grandfather Saint Eucherius, bishop of Lyons
Magnus Maximus Flavius, Roman Usurper is your 45th great grandfather Magnus Maximus, Western Roman Emperor
Dag, the Powerful, King(The Dagling or Dögling dynasty was a legendary clan of the petty kingdom Ringerike what today is Norway. It was descended from a Dag the Great), is your 45th great grandfather Agni "the Powerful" Dagsson, King in Sweden
Jorund, King of Uppsala & Sweden Yngvasson, is your 45th great grandfather King Jörund Yngvasson of Uppsala
Gwrast Lledlwn "the Ragged" ap Ceneu, is your 45th great grandfather Gwrwst Ledlwm 'half bare' ap Ceneu, King of Rheged
Prasutagus, Brenin o Iceni, is your 45th great grandfather Prasutagus, king of the Iceni
Boudicca, Queen of the Iceni, is your 45th great grandmother Boudicca, queen of the Iceni
Domangart mac Fergus, Rí na Dál Riata, is your 45th great grandfather Domangart mac Fergus, Rí na Dál Riata
Mong Fionn O'Hailill, is your 45th great grandmother Mongfind (Lebor Gabála Érenn)
Berik, King of the Goths is your 45th great grandfather Berik, King of the Goths
Amal "The Fortunate", DYNASTY of the AMAL GOTHS, is your 45th great grandfather Amal "The Fortunate"
Liamachus Langoman, is your 45th great grandfather Liamachus Langoman
Godinga Scridefini, wife of Liamachus Langoman, is your 45th great grandmother Godinga Scridefini
Genseris, King of BRITAIN, is your 45th great uncle Genseris, King of Britain
Saint Claudia, is your 45th great aunt Saint Claudia
Quintus Cornelius Pudens, Roman senator and early Christian, is your 45th great uncle's father Quintus Cornelius Pudens
Saint Pudens, is your 45th great uncle Saint Pudens
Berik, King of the Goths, is your 45th great grandfather Berik, King of the Goths
Vultwulf, Prince of the Greuthungi(people of estepes, “Ostrogoths”), 300-370, Scythia present Ukraine, is your 46th great grandfather Vultwulf, Prince of the Greuthungi

1/19/2014 at 12:14 PM

My birth name is Waer <---- this how my branch of our family spelled it, my 8th great grandparents used two different spellings Wyer on their marriage record and Waeir on their death records, many of the folks despite spelling variations are related and do descend from the de Vere family. The Alberic/Aubrey"Sanglier" de Vere, Sheriff of Berkshire mentioned above is my 26th great grandfather. I have found in my 34 years of genealogy research that a person maybe considered scholarly but that does not always mean their beliefs are correct or accurate.Those of us who have done research into our family know of course who our ancestors are but confusion from other sources or those who may not have done the research is to be expected. There is a family who also uses the surname of Weir but they are not descendants of the same family as the others,Their surname was Mcnair in Ireland and was anglicized as Weir. Anglicized form of Gaelic Mac Iain Uidhir ‘son of sallow John’. This form is associated mainly with Ross-shire.Anglicized form of Gaelic Mac an Oighre ‘son of the heir’. This form is associated mainly with Perthshire.Anglicized form of Gaelic Mac an Mhaoir ‘son of the steward or keeper’. The same name in Ireland was commonly Anglicized as Weir.

1/19/2014 at 4:47 PM

Thank you Hazel.

There isn't anything wrong with scholarly research, especially with genealogy but I find it funny that- most of the time- those 'scholars' haven't anything at all, what-so-ever, to do with the families they're researching. A very unhealthy obsession, to be so enamored with Royals and Nobles... And to think that many of these scholars 'think' and theorize that 'ennoblement' comes form a paper patent... nonsense!

Hell, people get degrees in the history... Of these divine bloodlines.

To be 'Royal' and/or 'Noble' is not evidenced by hand written decrees or fancy gold leafed patents, It is recognized as a Noble and/or Royal bloodline 'Race'.

1/19/2014 at 5:39 PM

As for 'Dragon' descent or Seraphic-genes, .03% (".003%" - Webmaster Bill of the original dragoncourt.org website) of the population, roughly a little over 8mil-people, would or could actually claim some sort of, legitimate derkesthai heritage.

Isaiah 14:28-30

28 In the year that King Achaz died, this prophecy came:

29 Do not rejoice, P’leshet (Palestine), any of you,
that the rod which struck you is broken;
for out of the snake’s root will come a viper,
and his offspring will be a flying fiery serpent.
30 While the firstborn of the poor graze
and the needy lie down in safety,
I will kill off your root with famine
and slaughter the rest of you. - Eh-Yah speaking.

1/19/2014 at 7:49 PM

TY Thomas. I agree with you there isn't anything wrong with scholarly research but it is disturbing to see the thoughts and opinions those scholars share when they have nothing what so ever to do with the families they are researching..

10/25/2014 at 7:58 AM

so, how does he get that name on a passport ?
HRH Nicholas de Vere von Drakenberg - when his real name is: Nicholas Thomas Logan Weir ?

10/25/2014 at 9:11 AM

does Alberic / Aubrey "Sanglier" de Vere, Sheriff of Berkshire


Aubrey I de VERE?


Aubrey II Ou Albéric de VERE 1062-1141 marié avec Alice de CLARE
on geni=Husband of Adelize de Clare

Lord Alberic de Vere, II

if so we need to redone all the name in proper french

Adeliza de Claremont = Adélaïde de CLERMONT =mother of Alice de CLARE

need alot of work

10/25/2014 at 9:46 AM

Martin - it's medieval English, the Old Norman language, and Latin. Added as language modules "in addition to" normalized English as used by historians world wide.

10/25/2014 at 10:11 AM

not normalised .plz translated is more apropriate madam
Howton , and here as the source said its all french

we keep to remind that latin came from religious group to push their idea genealogy go further than only idea

and i need to say about medieval english is all french ppl we are talking about (language speak)

le sanglier dont sound very english to me,,

does those link i provide are acurate to the profile i mention above?

10/25/2014 at 10:20 AM


Aubrey (Alberic I) de Vere (son of Alphonso de Vere and Countess Katherine of Flanders) was born 1040 in Ver, Cotentin, Normandy, France, and died 1112 in Colne Priory, Essex, England. He married Beatrice de Gand on 1059, daughter of Henry Castellan de Gand and Sibilla Manasses.

10/25/2014 at 10:21 AM

Martin -

I used the term "normalized" as that is the descriptive word, in English, for historic names rendered for contemporary usage. It is "standardized" for use in textbooks and encyclopedias etc.

I think the site http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CONTENTS.htm is more what is used for these medieval ancestors.

For me the medieval Latin name would be most helpful soonest - old Norman is different from contemporary French (I was just listening to linguists on it ...)

10/25/2014 at 10:27 AM


English, Old English, and Anglo-Norman Names

10/25/2014 at 10:29 AM


it fit parentage of Beatrice de Gand we can add them

10/25/2014 at 10:33 AM

Unknown Profile


why in profile parentage dont show?

10/25/2014 at 11:39 AM

while cheking i notice this

Béatrix de Clermont-en-Beauvaisis, dame de Luzarches

Daughter of Hugues I de Breteuil, comte de Clermont-en-Beauvaisis et Marguerite de Ramerupt, dame de Roucy
Wife of Mathieu I, comte de Beaumont-sur-Oise


acording to the site


Renaud Ier de CLERMONT-EN-BEAUVAISIS , né vers 1050 , décédé en 1102 à l’âge de peut-être 52 ans , Comte de Clermont en Beauvaisis
Marié vers 1080 julien avec
Marguerite de MONTDIDIER , née vers 1045 , décédée après 1103

Mathieu Ier de BEAUMONT-SUR-OISE , Seigneur de Beaumont, Comte de Beaumont , né - Beaumont-sur-Oise, 95260, Val-d'Oise, France , décédé en 1155 , Ecuyer (Parents : H Yves III de BEAUMONT-SUR-OISE , Comte de Beaumont sur Oise †1059 & F Adélaïde de GOURNAY †1099 ) dont

not fit in

10/25/2014 at 12:50 PM


Maybe this is a better site for you to study, the Geni tree looks correct to me.


Page 3

Children of Hugues ll de Clermont & Marguerite de Roucy

Beatrix (Emme) de Clermont
Married Mathieu de Beaumont

10/25/2014 at 1:07 PM

this is what i do non profesional i am headed with pro genealogist

Yves III de BEAUMONT-SUR-OISE , Comte de Beaumont sur Oise , décédé le 22 mai 1059 , Chambrier de France
Marié avec
Adélaïde de GOURNAY not yves 2


french are very acurate with genealogy

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