Is there such a thing as a descent from King David?

Started by Randy Schoenberg on Friday, January 24, 2014
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1/24/2014 at 9:08 PM

On JewishGen they have an article called "Can We Prove Descent from King David?" by David Einsiedler. The conclusion is that there is no proof of descent from King David. http://www.jewishgen.org/Rabbinic/journal/descent.htm

I am curious if this is correct, or if the lines that Einsiedler discusses were attempting only patrilineal descent and ignoring lines that went through women.

I don't put too much stock in the deeper genealogies because it's not my field, but according to Geni my connection is http://www.geni.com/path/Randy+Schoenberg+is+related+to+King+David+...

1/24/2014 at 10:11 PM

I am told by Geni that king david is my 96th great grandfather/
In my family also i was told that we are from the line of king david through rashi/
But how can that be if rashi had only 3 daughters?

1/25/2014 at 1:07 AM

My grandfather also told me that our family was descended from King David. I never knew whether to believe him. Is this a story told to all Jewish kids or is there something to it?

1/25/2014 at 5:50 AM

Careful! There is a controversy among archaeologists and historians on whether King David existed at all as a real person, and on whether there was ever a united Jewish kingdom (Saul+David+Solomon). There is more agreement on the mythological nature of King Solomon, although many refuse to question his existence too. Try to read about Israel Finkelstein statements. Tel Aviv University. King Omri seems to be the first about whom there are no doubts due to his efforts to communicate and do business with other people, so he appears in a number of documents. The past isn't what it used to be...
Isaac Meilijson

1/25/2014 at 7:14 AM

Right. i just want to know if there is "documented" line. Whether you believe the documents, is the second question.

1/25/2014 at 7:35 AM

Geni says he's my 71st great grandfather!
http://www.geni.com/path/Theresa+Renee+El%C3%A9na+Delgado+Tossas+To...

Geni also says Cleopatra VII is my 62nd great grandmother. Pretty fantastical! Yet, I find it quite fascinating, simultaneously! ;-)

Randi,
the biggest gap in credibility would be the period of the Exilarchs, for the first couple of centuries after the 2nd Temple was destroyed. Haim & Justin know FAR more about them than I do. The primary problem is that while we have a list of Exilarchs, the line sometimes passed to a nephew.

So YES there ARE a number of well-documented lines. The question remains whether they are continuous and/or valid.

A good starting point to evaluate them would be their length -

We have non-Biblical sources that mention Zerubbabel 3rd Exilarch / זרובבל, the first Exilarch, and know when he lived. If we accept HIS biblical lineage of 22 generations from King David of Israel (and 54 from Adam of Eden]]), then ANY lineage to King David would be around 120 generations long. Any line that is less than 110 or more than 130, is not very credible.

1/25/2014 at 1:59 PM

Thanks, Shmuel. For the period of the Exilarchs I think it's fair to say that the lines are both plausible and likely, but there are some gaps and questions.

For later generations, I have doubts. The work of recent scholars seems sound. However, if I'm not mistaken, Jaim has been documenting alternative Sephardic lines to the Exilarchs that avoid the problems discussed in David Einsiedler's article.

One of the odd side effects of Jaim's work is that if he's right, many non-Jewish people have a plausible descent from King David through.Yonati bat Gedaliah, Paloma.

Anyone interested in this question would be interested in the work of Neil Rosenstein: http://tali.com/neilr/

Private User
1/25/2014 at 3:08 PM

Hello to all,

I agree that it's not possible to prove the Davidic descent with documents, but some families save with signs and verbal tradition the seed of the remember of it.

Today we have some tools as Geni and FTDNA to cross data with the Jewish and Crypto-Jewish families that have a Davidic tradition to make some verification on statistic basis.

Paolo Amerighi

1/25/2014 at 3:10 PM

When considering Davidic descendants, does that include Menelik ., I, da Ethiopia and the Ethiopian Monarchy?

1/25/2014 at 6:27 PM

Shmuel. Geni has Zerubbabel as much closer to David. Is there a short-circuit somewhere?

http://www.geni.com/path/Zerubbabel+3rd+Exilarch+%D7%96%D7%A8%D7%95...

1/25/2014 at 6:55 PM

Malka, I don't know the answer to your question but there are two other dynasties that famously claim descent from King David -- both the Bagratids and the Palaiologoi. Many Geni users will find descents from those dynasties, although the proof is shaky.

Malka,
sure, but I don't think that anyone has entered the genealogy of the Ethiopian Emperors yet.

1/26/2014 at 5:21 AM

After 3000 years, I don't think that there is any Jewish person who is not descendant of King David. :-)

1/26/2014 at 7:15 AM

Shmuel-Aharon Kam (Kahn / שמואל-אהרן קם (קאן The Various Branches of the Imperial Solomonic Dynasty of Ethiopian Monarchy seem pretty well documented and are available online, though a little confusing. Maybe, a project would help clarify the line?

e.g
1. http://www.angelfire.com/ny/ethiocrown/Familytree.html

2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Emperors_of_Ethiopia

3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomonic_dynasty
. . . "The Solomonic Dynasty continued to rule Ethiopia with few interruptions until 1974.

1/26/2014 at 10:52 AM

King David wasn't a 'Jew'.

The name Tutmose translated from the Coptic to Hebrew becomes David Son/heir or the more common Son/Heir of David. A hard 'T' sound in the Coptic becomes a 'D' sound in the Hebrew and the 'UU' double 'ewe' sound, since they did not have a double 'UU' in the Hebrew became a 'Vav' hence the consonantal rendering; 'DVD'.

The 'Tutmose' and 'Hotep' lines are the House of Tut (Thoth) is the house of 'DVD'. 'Mose' means 'heir of' or 'son of' so it is easy to recognize that the line or House of David is the same as the Tutmose shepherd Kings of the 18th dynasty Egypt. And if you account that with the genetic results done on the mummy's from the 18th dynasty it reveals their genetic origins to be Irish.

And Ironically 'Christianity' or Naziritism were not runway cults spawning from Judaism on the contrary it's actually reverse.

1/26/2014 at 11:07 AM

Thomas, that is the theory of Ahmed Osman (Jesus in the House of the Pharaohs: the Essene revelations on the historical Jesus, 1992, 2004). The theory has not been accepted by the academic community. We should treat it as pseudo-history.

1/26/2014 at 1:27 PM

I'm a PhD linguist with 20 years speciality in Semitic and Afroasiatic and am having trouble with the Coptic - ancient Hebrew paragraph above.

I'm not saying it's wrong, it just doesn't jump out at me as grounded in comparative or historical linguistics or the facts of the languages involved.

Hebrew (Semitic) writing system is root letter based, vowels were a later addition, with the three root letters being the semantic core and the infixes, prefixes and suffixes adding meaning. Vav (the middle letter in David written in Hebrew) is in fact long "u" in the writing system also. Not sure who told the theorist that ancient Hebrew did not have a long "u".

1/26/2014 at 5:42 PM

It's very important to the Mormon faith to prove that it goes back to ancient Israel for the sake of validating their priesthood called the Aaronic priesthood. Those that know their Bibles will recall that the priesthood was called the Levitical priesthood.

That being said, as the descendent of Mormons on all sides, I have one genealogy chart that goes all the way back to Adam. It goes through King David through his son Nathan. Being that I'm not a Mormon, I don't put any stock in it....

1/26/2014 at 7:49 PM

Jean, I did a printout (Pedigree) of my ancestors as far back as it would go. It said Adam & Eve were my 130th GG Grandfather & Grandmother. The book of Genesis has a genealogical chart and they both matched. Just saying I think it could be true. My nephew has a Masters in Theology and I even have him wondering.

1/26/2014 at 8:36 PM

The LDS Church routinely counsels members not to put stock in genealogies back to Adam & Eve. Here's one example:

https://familysearch.org/blog/en/family-tree-adam-eve/

https://familysearch.org/blog/en/family-tree-adam-eve-part-2/

Back in 1984, Robert Gunderson, Senior Royalty Research Specialist at the Church Genealogical Department, wrote:

"I have yet to see a pedigree back to Adam that can be documented. By assignment, I have reviewed hundreds of pedigrees over the years. I have not found one where each connection on the pedigree can be justified by evidence from contemporary documents. In my opinion it is not even possible to verify historically a connected European pedigree earlier than the time of the Merovingian Kings (c. A.D. 450–A.D. 752).

"Every pedigree I have seen which attempts to bridge the gap between that time and the biblical pedigree appears to be based on questionable tradition, or at worst, plain fabrication. Generally these pedigrees offer no evidence as to the origin of the information, or they cite a vague source."

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1984/02/i-have-a-question?lang=eng

1/26/2014 at 8:49 PM

what is the oldest known Aaronic priest on genI ?

1/26/2014 at 9:09 PM

Aaron ;)

1/26/2014 at 11:01 PM

Shows my 90th ggf

Private
1/27/2014 at 8:06 AM

Gábor Balogh

After 3000 years, if there are any descendants from King David, it is doubtful there is any human being on Earth who is not descended from King David.

I reached that conclusion long ago, when I read "Holy Blood Holy Grail", a book that preceded the "Da Vinci Code" series. Do the math, 64 generations back is 2 to the 64th power. That's 18 quintillion ancestors, likely more than the entire human population of the Earth for it's entire history combined. Now when you say David is 120 generations, that's double the number of generations, or 2 to the 120th power. Doubling the generations squares the number of ancestors, or 340 quintillion quintillion a number I don't even want to bother calculating. Ok, I just ran up a calculation, 36 more numbers after that, don't want to look any deeper than that.

So, the probability is, any one back then who had any descendants who survive today is probably an ancestor to all of us.

1/27/2014 at 8:37 AM

I don't know which is the oldest known Aaronic priest on GenI. Nor what they were, except by Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaronic_priesthood_%28Latter_Day_Saint...
Perhaps he was among those ggf living before(in the time) the 100th generation of our own trees:

Pharez / פרץ . is your 100th great grandfather Pharez .
Iry-Hor, Faraón de Egipto, son of Horus, is your 100th great grandfather Horus (Egyptian Mythology)
Dian mac Rotheachta, Prince of Ireland, is your 100th great grandfather Dian mac Rotheachta, Prince of Ireland
Ashur-uballit I, King of Assyria, is your 100th great grandfather Ashur-uballit I, king of Assyria
Rothechtaid Rigderg mac Maoin, son of Maoin I Oilbhuagach MacAongus, is your 100th great grandfather Rothechtaid Rigderg mac Maoin
Lamech / למך / لمك . is your 99th great grandfather Lamech .
Ashmua / Betnos . is your 99th great grandmother Ashmua / Betnos .
Rothechtaid, mac Maoin, is your 101st great grandfather Rothechtaid Rigderg mac Maoin
Horus, Dios del Cielo, el Sol y la Guerra is your 101st great grandfather Horus (Egyptian Mythology)
Maoin I Oilbhuagach MacAongus is your 101st great grandfather Maoin I Oilbhuagach, High King of Ireland {Legendary} Maoin I Oilbhuagach, High King of Ireland {Legendary}
Eriba-Adad I, King of Assyria, is your 101st great grandfather Eriba-Adad I, King of Assyria
Hvarfiad . na h'Éireann, wife of Maoin I Oilbhuagach MacAongus, is your 101st great grandmother Hvarfiad . na h'Éireann
Enoch / חנוך / إدريس . is your 101st great grandfather Enoch / Idris
Edna . is your 101st great grandmother Edna .
Ashur-bel-nisheshu, King of Assyria, is your 102nd great grandfather Aššūr-bēl-nīšēšu, king of Assyria
Jared / ירד / اليارد . is your 102nd great grandfather Jared .
Baraka / Baltsa / Beltsea . is your 102nd great grandmother Baraka / Baltsa / Beltsea
Aonghus Olmucadha, The Big Headed One Mac Fiacha, Rí na h'Éireann, is your 103rd great grandfather Aonghus Olmucadha, High King of Ireland {Legendary}
Geb, father of Isis, Reina de los Dioses, and Seth, is your 103rd great grandfather Geb
Ashur-nirari II, King of Assyria, is your 103rd great grandfather Ashur-nirari II, King of Assyria
Mahalalel / מהללאל / مهلائيل . is your 103rd great grandfather Mahalalel .
Dinah / Dîmâh . is your 103rd great grandmother Dinah / Dîmâh .
Fiacha Labhrainne MacSimorgoill, is your 104th great grandfather Fiacha Labhrainne mac Simorgoill
Enlil-Nasir II, King of Assyria, is your 104th great grandfather Enlil-Nasir II, King of Assyria
Cainan / קינן / قينان . is your 104th great grandfather Cainan .
Mualeleth . is your 104th great grandmother Mualeleth .
Ashur-rabi I (King) Ashur-rabi I of of ASSYRIA (?-1451bc), King of Assyria, is your 105th great grandfather Ashur-rabi I, King of Assyria
Simorgoill mac Eanbotha, High King of Ireland, is your 105th great grandfather Simorgoill, High King of Ireland {Legendary}
Enosh / אנוש / أنوش . is your 105th great grandfather Enosh .
Noam / נועם . is your 105th great grandmother Noam .
Enlil-nasir I (King) Enlil-nasir I of of ASSYRIA, King of Assyria, is your 106th great grandfather Enlil-nasir I King of Assyria, King of Assyria
Eanbrotha MacTighearnmas, King of Ireland, is your 106th great grandfather Eanbrotha, High King of Ireland {Legendary}
th great grandfather Seth .
Azûrâ / Aklia / Akilia / Aklemia . is your 106th great grandmother Azura .
Puzur-Ashur III, King of Assyria, is your 107th great grandfather Puzur-Ashur III, King of Assyria
Tighearnmhas Masius mac Follach, High King of Ireland, is your 107th great grandfather Tighearnmhas Masius, High King of Ireland {Legendary}
Adam / אדם / آدم . is your 107th great grandfather Adam of Eden
Eve / חוה / حواء . is your 107th great grandmother Eve of Eden
Ashur-nirari I, King of Assyria, is your 108th great grandfather Ashur-nirari I, King of Assyria
Follach, Folian mac Eithrial, is your 108th great grandfather Follach Folian mac Eithrial
Ishme-Dagan II, King of Assyria, is your 109th great grandfather Ishme-Dagan II, King of Assyria
Eithriall, 11th High King of Ireland, is your 109th great grandfather Eithriall, 11th High King of Ireland {Legendary}
Irial Faidh, 10th High King of Ireland, is your 110th great grandfather Irial Faidh, 10th High King of Ireland {Legendary}
Shamshi-Adad II, Assyria, is your 110th great grandfather Shamshi-Adad II
Erishum III, King of Assyria, is your 111th great grandfather Erishum III, King of Assyria
Érimón mac Míl Espáine, 2nd High King of Ireland(circa -1750 Egypt/-1683 Ireland), is your 111th great grandfather Érimón mac Míl Espáine, 2nd High King of Ireland {Legendary}
Shu-Ninua, King of Assyria, is your 112th great grandfather Shu-Ninua, king of Assyria
Galamh, Milesius of Spain, King of Galicia, Andalusia, Murcia, Castile, and Portugal (circa -1763/-1699), is your 112th great grandfather Milesius Galamh (Lebor Gabála Érenn)
Scota(circa -1750-Egypt/-1700-Ireland), Queen of the Gadelians, wife of Galamh, Milesius of Spain, King of Galicia, Andalusia, Murcia, Castile, and Portugal, is your 112th great grandmother Scota, Queen of the Gadelians {fictitious}
Bilé mac Breoghain, King of Galicia is your 112th great grandfather Bilé (Lebor Gabála Érenn)
Baun of Galicia, wife of Bilé mac Breoghain, King of Galicia is your 112th great grandmother Baun of Galicia
Breoghan, King of Galicia, is your 113th great grandfather Breoghan (Lebor Gabála Érenn)
Daughter of Brathaus of Getulia, wife of Breoghan, King of Galicia, is your 113th great grandmother NN . wife of Breoghan, of Galicia
Bazaya, King of Assyria, is your 113th great grandfather Bazaya, King of Assyria
Breoghan, King of Galicia, is your 114th great grandfather Breoghan (Lebor Gabála Érenn)
Iptar-Sin, King of Assyria, is your 114th great grandfather Iptar-Sin, King of Assyria
Sharma-Adad I, King of Assyria, is your 115th great grandfather Sharma-Adad I, King of Assyria
Brath, King of Gothia(circa -1805-Macotic Marshes on the Black Sea,Gothia/-1715-Galícia, Iberia),is your 115th great grandfather Brath (Lebor Gabála Érenn)
Libaya, King of Assyria, is your 116th great grandfather Libaya, king of Assyria
Bel-bani, King of Assyria(abt.1691 BCE, Assyria), is your 117th great grandfather Bel-bani, king of Assyria
Adasi, King of Assyria(before 1548BCE), is your 118th great grandfather Adasi, king of Assyria
Alladh King of Ireland(circa – 1858), King of Gothia(Gothia, Getulia, now Lybia, North Africa), is your 118th great grandfather Alladh (Lebor Gabála Érenn)
Agnan Fionn, King of Gothia, is your 122nd great grandfather Agnan Fionn (Lebor Gabála Érenn)
Tait, King of Scythia(Scythia,Ukraine), is your 126th great grandfather Tait, King of Scythia (Lebor Gabála Érenn) Oghaman, King of Scythia is your 126th great grandfather Oghaman, King of Scythia (Lebor Gabála Érenn)
Beouman, King of Scythia is your 127th great grandfather Boamhain (Lebor Gabála Érenn) Boamhain (Lebor Gabála Érenn)
Heber Scut is your 128th great grandfather Heber "the Scot" (Lebor Gabála Érenn)
Sruth / Srú is your 129th great grandfather Sruth (Lebor Gabála Érenn)
Asruth is your 130th great grandfather Asruth (Lebor Gabála Érenn)
Gaodhal Glas . is your 131st great grandfather Gaodhal Glas (Lebor Gabála Érenn)
Neuil Nemnach, King of Scythia, is your 132nd great grandfather Niul Nemnach, King of Scythia (Lebor Gabála Érenn)
Phoeniusa Farsaidh, King of Scythia, is your 133rd great grandfather Fénius Farsaid, King of Scythia (Lebor Gabála Érenn)
Bathath is your 134th great grandfather Bathath Farssaidh, King of Scythia (Lebor Gabála Érenn)
Magog (Irish version) is your 135th great grandfather Magog . (Irish version) (Lebor Gabála Érenn)
Magog, מגוג (Genesis 10:2; Chronicles 1:5), one of Noah’s grandsons, ancestor of the Scythians, north of the Black Sea, is your 136th great grandfather Magog . (Irish version) (Lebor Gabála Érenn)

1/27/2014 at 10:42 PM

Getting my Family tree DNA results it says my Y DNA is J M267 which is J! Cohen Match that means I descend from the house of Aaron from the tribe of Levi. You have to remember something the cohen lineage is passed down from father to son. The the whole bit on if ur mother wasnt born jewish your not jewish is wrong it was put in to divide the jewish people from the adversary. I know what my father told me and he was right. I also have Maternal DNA of Taino Indian from my moms side that was a shocker so I am an Alpha and Omega kid.

1/27/2014 at 11:40 PM

Hi Adam (14th cousin),

Agree... Interesting, that genetically, our mothers are Europeans (mtDNA):
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/131008/ncomms3543/full/ncomms3543...

1/28/2014 at 12:50 AM

So why is David my 90th ggf? Someone pug the info on here. You would tjink that there should be some knowledge in that.

Private User
1/28/2014 at 4:57 AM

I am not a "Pro" Geni member. How can I see if I'm descended from David haMelech and, if so, how many generations back?

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