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Nar Nee "Elizabeth" Asbill (Ross) - Who is Nar Nee (Elizabeth Ross)?

Started by Julie Davis on Wednesday, February 5, 2014
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Profiles Mentioned:

  • Family of Pierce Asbill. From Asbill family history. Author Bennett, George T. Page Genealogical Chart XVlll
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  • Asbill family history. Author Bennett, George T. Page 36
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  • Asbill family history. Author Bennett, George T. Page 39
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  • Family of William Asbill. From Asbill family history. Author Bennett, George T. Page 84. Genealogical Chart XVlll.
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Who really is Narnee or Elizabeth Ross?

It has been reported on the web that Narnee lived with her nephew, Kee Kee Gunter on the Old Settler’s Roll of 1851 and she was married to William Asbell. Let’s say that is true and she was Elizabeth Ross but she was NOT the wife of William Asbell. I will prove what I am saying below along with sources and references,

John Ross the Cherokee Chief and his sister, Elizabeth Ross had an another sister, Susannah Ross who married Henry Nave. They had a daughter, Eliza who married George Washington Gunter. Eliza was the niece of Elizabeth Ross so her husband would be Elizabeth’s nephew by marriage. Eliza’s sons would also be nephews of Elizabeth Ross. Elizabeth was married to John Golden Ross so her name would be Elizabeth Ross. If she was the wife of William Asbell, her name would have been Elizabeth Asbell not Ross. On his application that Kee Kee Gunter’s son, George Washington Gunter applied for Indian citizenship for his three year old daughter, Lois Fern, HE lists his grandfather as George Gunter and father as Kee Kee Gunter and his mother as Sarah McPherson Mizer. He also lists Eliza and George Washington Gunter’s sons as his father’s brothers. I have a copy of his application from Fold 3. Kee Kee Gunter is also listed as fighting in a battle with his brothers in Emmett Starr’s book “‪History of the Cherokee Indians and Their Legends and Folk Lore‬. Another reference is James Hicks Book “Cherokee Lineages” where their lineage is listed. Kee Kee also went by the name, George Washington Gunter, Jr. I have a complete list of the people who went on the Trail of Tears and I have the book “Cherokee Roots” which lists all the Cherokee Rolls. George Washington Gunter and his family are listed on the Drennen Roll. I cannot find them on the Old Settler’s Roll because they went on the Trail of Tears and those people are not on the Old Settler’s Roll. In that book, they explain the rolls, “Drennen Roll 1852 was the first census of the new arrivals of 1839. The New Echota Treaty group – “Trail of Tears”. “Old Settler’s Roll 1851: is a listing of Cherokee still living in 1851 who WERE ALREADY residing in Oklahoma when the main body of the Cherokee arrive in the winter of 1839”. If somehow, they are listed on the Old Settler’s Roll, I don’t know if the nephew listed is the father, George Washington Gunter, Sr. or his son, George Washington Gunter, Jr. but since the father was born in 1806 and would have been 45 years old in 1851 and the son would have been a child, the answer would have to be the father (the husband of Eliza Nave Gunter. In my research, I have discovered that Indians would take several names in their lifetime. George, Sr. might have used the nickname, “Kee Kee” too.

Thanks! Please feel free to correct this.

I don't understand your message. Please feel free to correct what?

I think there’s been a mixup.

The 1st wife of William Asbill “took the name” Malinda and later added the name Ross, perhaps in honor of her mother in law Dorothy Ross.

After Malinda died in 1787, her husband remarried to ELIZABETH Moore.

Malinda’s story is here:

https://archive.org/details/asbillfamilyhist00benn/page/78

I am adjusting the tree based on it.

The notes in profile for an Elizabeth Ross who died 1851 in Ft Gibson must be an entirely different person; I will extract those notes, add to this discussion, and perhaps we can find the family it belongs with.

Malinda Ross
Sex: F
Birth: 1767 in [Hangingdog ?] Cherokee Nation, North Carolina
Death: 1787 after the birth of her son William
daughter of “Cherokee chief” & his wife who died in childbirth
adopted by Samuel Becknell and his wife
1st wife of William Asbill (son of Joseph Asbill & Dorothy Ross)
2 daughters (names unknown) and son William, b 1787

Notes that belong to someone else, not this Malinda Ross

===Notes

Nar-Nee was a full-blood Overhill Cherokee from what is today Cherokee, No rth Carolina. She took the English name of Elizabeth Ross. Researchers a re still trying to determine the relationship, if any, between Nar-Nee's f amily and that of Chief John Ross. Nar-Nee had a brother named Oo-ya-sis-t ah and a sister named Gar-en-sah.

The three eldest children of William and Nar-Nee may have been born in Wil kes County, Georgia, where William and his brother John had received boun ty land for their military service during the Revolutionary War. They le ft Georgia around 1789 and returned to North Carolina, where William is fo und on the 1790 federal census for Randolph County. Speculation is that th ey returned to North Carolina due to the fact that white settlers were mov ing into Georgia and displacing the Cherokee. Oral family history indicat es that William and John might have been as much as 1/2 Cherokee. They mig ht have felt unwelcome, or threatened, living in Georgia.

Some of their decendents went to Indian Territory during the time of the C herokee removal of 1839 ("The Trail of Tears"). Other family members mig ht have left before the forced removal and still others went to Indian Ter ritory after the Civil War.

Nar-Nee's nephew (a son of Oo-ya-sis-tah) took the name John Ross (n ot to be confused wtih Chief John Ross). He went west to the new Cherok ee Nation in Indian Territory after the Civil War when the Western Cherok ee extended an invitation to the Eastern Cherokee to join them. He submitt ed an affidavit to Tahlequah in 1887 in support of the application for cit izenship of Jaley Asbill Johnson, daughter of Ross Asbill.

Census and other records indicate that Nar-Nee and William probably went b ack to Hangingdog, North Carolina after their youngest daughter Sarah marr ied and moved to Missouri in the late spring of 1829. For a number of yea rs before the forced removal of 1839, it was becoming increasingly obvio us to most Cherokee that the white man was going to take their land. So me Cherokee left for the assigned Indian lands in Arkansas and later in In dian Territory before 1839.

Neither Nar-Nee nor William appear on the federal census of 1830, nor in t he 1835 Cherokee census, which was taken just prior to (and in anticipati on of) the removal. William might have died sometime between 1829 and 183 5. There is a possibity that Nar-Nee might have gone west with relativ es to Indian Territory, but she died before the Old Settler Payroll of 185 1. The payroll lists a Nar-Nee (deceased) who had been living in the house hold of Kee Kee Gunter (age 40), her nephew, in Ft. Gibson, Cherokee Natio n, Indian Territory. So far, the only Nar-Nee that researchers have been a ble to find in Cherokee records has been William's wife.

Special thanks to the folks at http://arapaho.nsuok.edu/~asbill/wmsrfgr.ht m

for a wealth of information!

--------------------
Source for the following: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~angelasattic/ALL/...

William Asbill [Parents] was born in 1763 in Bertie, NC. He died in 1820 in Madison Co., KY. He married Nar-Nee "Elizabeth" Ross in 1783 in Estill, Nc.

Found in 1810 Kentucky census: http://www.rootsweb.com/usgenweb/ky/madison/census/1810/215.jpg

Nar-Nee "Elizabeth" Ross [Parents] was born in 1770 in Hangingdog, Cherokee Nation, NC. She died in 1851 in Ft. Gibson, Cherokee Nation, Indian Territory (OK). She married William Asbill in 1783 in Estill, Nc.

1. Ethelda Henry, said in a letter to Lucille Gano that William's descendants in Kentucky had told her that William only had one wife. Recently, several very important documents were found by David Nobles and Arlona Mayhugh among the records of the Cherokee Nation's Commission on Citizenship (1887) and the Guion Miller Commission (1907). These records verify, among other things, that the wife of William Asbell, Sr., was a full-blood Overhill Cherokee from what is today Cherokee Co., North Carolina. Her name was Nar-nee, and she took the English name of Elizabeth Ross. (See note #4 re: John Ross' affidavit.)

2. Researchers are still trying to determine the relationship, if any, between Nar-nee's family and that of Chief John Ross. The records mentioned in note #3 indicate that Nar-nee had a brother named Oo-ya-sis-tah and a sister named Gar-en-sah. Some of their descendants went to Indian Territory during the time of the Cherokee removal of 1839 ("The Trail of Tears"). Others may have left before the removal. Still others, it is known, went to Indian Territory after the Civil War. Nar-nee had a nephew (son of Oo-ya-sis-tah) who took the name of John Ross. This particular John Ross, not to be confused with Chief John Ross, came west to the new Cherokee Nation in Indian Territory after the Civil War when the Western Cherokee extended an invitation to the Eastern Cherokee to join them. He submitted an affidavit in Tahlequah in 1887 in support of the application for citizenship of Jaley Asbill Johnson, daughter of Ross Asbell. John Ross, who was first cousin to John and Ross Asbell, knew Nar-nee and William when they were living at Hangingdog, North Carolina. He mentions their two sons, John and Ross, only.

He makes no mention of the three older children, who were probably born in Georgia. The three older children were apparently staying with relatives in Randolph Co., where Mary Nancy was married in 1801, before William moved the whole family in 1805 to Madison Co., Ky. His brother, John, had already moved to Madison Co. about ten years earlier.

3. Census and other records indicate that Nar-nee and her husband, William, probably went back to Hangingdog, N.C., after their daughter and youngest child, Sarah, married and moved to Missouri in the late spring of 1829. For a number of years before the forced removal of 1839, it was becoming increasingly obvious to most Cherokee that the white man was going to take their land. Some Cherokee ("Old Settlers") left for assigned Indian lands in Arkansas and later in Indian Territory before 1839. Neither Nar-nee nor William are on the federal census of 1830 nor the 1835 Cherokee census, which was taken prior to and in anticipation of the removal. William may have died sometime between 1829 and 1835, and Nar-nee may have gone west with relatives to Indian Territory, but died before the Old Settler Payroll of 1851. The payroll listed a Nar-nee (deceased) who had been living in the household of Kee Kee Gunter (age 40), her nephew, in Ft. Gibson, Cherokee Nation, I.T. So far, the only Nar-nee that researchers have found in Cherokee records has been William's Cherokee wife.

4. The three eldest children of William & Nar-nee may have been born in Wilkes Co., Georgia, where William and his brother, John, received bounty land for their military service during the Revolutionary War. They left Georgia around 1789 and return to North Carolina, where William is found on the 1790 federal census for Randolph Co. The reason they returned to North Carolina may have been due to the fact that white settlers were moving into Georgia and displacing the Cherokee. Oral family history indicates that William and John may have been as much as 1/2 Cherokee. The Asbells may have felt unwelcome, even threatened, living in Georgia.

They had the following children:

* F i Mary Nancy Asbill
* M ii William Asbill Jr
* M iii Joseph Asbill
* M iv John Asbill
* M v Ross Asbill
* F vi Lydia Asbill
* F vii Elizabeth Asbill
* F viii Sarah Asbill

Diana Collins

It looks like there’s another “Indian Maiden” in this tree:

Allah-Tete Asbell

I wonder if this is a grand daughter of Gar Li Gar Lo Ers Although I did not see the name Tete

John Gulden Ross &

Elizabeth Ross

Was Elizabeth the same person as Nar-Nee, daughter of Gar Li Gar Lo Ers ?

Kathryn Forbes Where would we look to
Flesh out details on this family and see if Elizabeth was Nar Nee?

John Golden Ross was a white man born in Scotland in 1787. He married Elizabeth Ross, born 1789 died 1876, daughter of Daniel Ross, a white man also born in Scotland, and his Cherokee wife Mollie McDonald. She had no other names. Elizabeth was the sister of Chief John Ross. This family is extremely well-documented.

I don’t find anyone named Asbell or Asbill on the Emigration rolls, 1835 census, or the 1851/52 Drennan, Old Settler, Siler or Chapman rolls. I found three women named Narnee on the Drennan, one on the Old Settler..

Kee kee Gunter does NOT appear on the Old Settler roll. He was born in 1856 and was the heir of several Old Settlers. He was the son of a couple named Chee ka kee and Oo wah har sa kee and the nephew of the woman named Narnee. They were all alive in1851, living in the same household in Skin Bayou district, all dead by 1896. He had other relatives named Arch, Payne, and Ar lee kee. They also lived in Skin Bayou.

Kathryn, A lot of sites say that the spelling varied... look for Azbill or Azbell.

Kathryn Forbes Now we’re beginning to make sense.

Kee Kee Gunter, nephew of Nar-Nee, must be the person they are equating with Elizabeth “Nar Nee Ross”, but it looks like you are saying it’s a false connection.

Coo-Wee-Scoo-See ‘Ross’ Asbill mentioned in the Guion Rolls

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000088548290821&

A lot of genealogy here and a connection to Adairs

Susan Mahan was first the wife of a Cherokee named William Adair or William Squirrel. They had two Cherokee children. Susan was the granddaughter of Ross and Elizabeth Asbill. Although she claimed to be Cherokee her application was rejected since she could not show any connection to any Cherokee ancestor. She said that her grandfather Ross Asbill was from North Carolina and that his family had moved first to Kentucky and then on to Missouri. She said that Elizabeth was from Kentucky. As noted above, there is no one named Asbell/Asbill/Azbell on the 1835 census or on the Siler or Chapman Rolls.

Here is Lydia Asbell....

Liddy Bennett (Asbell)

Ok.... I found THIS thread on ancestry.....

https://www.ancestry.com/boards/thread.aspx?mv=flat&m=148&p...

Now, I did find a census record for 1790 in Randolph County, NC. It shows William Asbell and Emanuel Asbell. I can't show the census record here, so I would have no clue where to stick it.

So Susan Anna Johnson had part Cherokee children and least two
of her husband’s were Cherokee (see https://www.geni.com/photo/view/6000000088548726888?album_type=phot... )
It looks like the Asbill family had by Marriage connections to Cherokee people, but their ancestral “blood” is the family stories of Malinda Ross & Allah-Tele.

Did it actually happen that Indian children were fostered by white families?

Ooh we do have public questioning of George Bennett’s facts in the Asbill book;

“Joseph Asbell married to Dorothy Ross is fictional. These people did not exist, but were made up by George Bennett for his book. There is absolutely NO DOCUMENTED PROOF that either person existed. The Joseph Asbell of this time period was born about 1762 and lived in Bertie County North Carolina his entire life. He was a son of Solomon Asbell.

“Thank you for your reply, but please be aware that too many people quote the information from Bennett's book as fact, and it is not.”

Cherokee children were not brought up by white families. If a Cherokee woman died her children were be raised by her mother, her sisters, or other relatives and members of her clan.

That’s what I thought.

Comment at FamilySearch on the Bennett authored Asbill book supports the archived thread point:

https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/sources/L8TN-664

The Asbill Family History, by George T. Bennett and Donald E Bennett, genealogists, Pulaski, Tennessee [195-?]. archive.org, viewed May 2018
Notes
Book is known to have a number of errors. Should only be used for possible clues, not to be cited for a fact.
Attached
30 May 2018 by Christy Kestler
Reason This Source Is Attached • Edit
page 35 states that Joseph ASBILL married about 1756 to Dorothy ROSS. Bennett erroneously identifies ROSS as a daughter of Rev. George Aeneas Ross and sister of George Ross, signer of the Declaration of Independence. Rev. Ross's wives and children are documented in other sources, and there is no sign of a daughter Dorothy nor a son-in-law ASBILL. Bennett did not provide sources for the claims he made, and many are proven false.

——

I knew my deep dive into all Ross families would pay off one day! :). As I said, my Ross ancestors had the same impossible story.

However this is where I am interested:

Nancy "Nannie" Mitchell

It looks like my Abijah Ross out of Giles TN had a Mitchell Mother. I recently had further evidence to support the linkage:

Mary Ross

I’m not seeing a possible link from this Mitchell family to Asbill, though.

So I’m worrying about the parents of William Asbill & John Asbell. James Asbill Married the sister of John Asbell wife so I presume they were brothers. https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/LKFT-CYB Asserts that William & John were brothers with unknown parents.

My thought is to keep the three together with NN parents and disconnect from fictional parents Joseph Asbill & Dorothy Asbill

Dorothy Ross is claimed as a daughter of George Aeneas Ross, which is impossible. Apparently the only Joseph Asbill nearby (b 1762, son of Solomon) was much too young to have been parents of these three. I don’t know about the other siblings named.

Was Heinrich Van Cree a real person ? Another one from the Asbill book that seems unlikely.

Looks like complete hogwash, to say the least. Cherokee people didn't give their children away. If the mother died, a child would be raised by her mother, her sisters, or other members of her clan. The child of a Cherokee woman was Cherokee and his or her father was not even considered to be a blood relative. Any stories about star-crossed lovers or marriages without parental approval have nothing to do with any Cherokee culture or traditions. Cherokee women took husbands as they pleased for as long (or short) as they pleased. A Cherokee person who did not live with his or her family and clan ceased to exist, hardly a fate anyone would assign to a child.

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