John Rice, of Dedham

Started by Justin Durand on Sunday, March 30, 2014
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4/21/2014 at 5:33 PM

No worries J.S. I've gone private. That's how I will do my thing without offending the sensibilities of the "Other". Regards DCR 1948

4/21/2014 at 5:42 PM

That's fine, Dale. Up to you how you want to handle your tree. However, I'm not sure you understand this applies only to your 3rd great grandparents and their descendants. You still have the problem that the generations you care about are still public and part of the world tree. You will not be able to re-shape the tree to follow your theories without vandalizing the tree.

That's why I'm asking what you want to achieve. Here on Geni you will be limited by what you can prove, and so far you haven't been able to prove anything. Won't that frustrate you?

4/21/2014 at 5:49 PM

Have a great Day....Kind Regards to all here at Geni. DCR1948

4/25/2014 at 10:24 AM

Since we all know the relationship to John Lackland I won't put it up. The testimony of 1978 is true, and I will bring proof of John Perratt II 1572 when it arrives. The words flung at me here are going to stand on their own. Peace, Out. DCR 1948

4/25/2014 at 12:23 PM
John Parratt age 36 at muster NewPort News, Va born 1587 arrived on board the PROVIDENCE and was a servant to Daniel Gookins. Prunella followed in 1635. Received by Husband John Parrott . .DCR

4/25/2014 at 3:58 PM


I would say bravo, for finding a record, and trusting it for a moment. What does it say? John Parratt (born c. 1587) was one of 12 servants of Daniel Gookins who arrived on the same ship. This means that:
(a) Daniel Gookins was probably quite wealthy, to bring over 12 servants on a single journey. His origins may therefore be traceable, which means that the likely geographical origins of the John Parratt whom he brought over should also be identifiable;
(b) a John Parratt born in c. 1587 cannot be the John Parratt born in 1572. The dates are too far apart. Of the 12 servants of Daniel Gookins, John Parratt is by around 12 years the senior. This probably means that he had a specialist skill which was needed (e.g. blacksmith) whereas the others were labourers;
(c) it is unlikely, although not totally impossible, that a John Parratt aged around 53, would bring over a wife Prunella. More likely that her husband John Parrott was the son of the 1623 immigrant (if there was a relationship, as there well might be given how thinly Virginia was colonised at this time.


PS. I thought you were out? I would have kept silence, but I think you may have got domething here, and it is by traditional genealogical methods.

4/25/2014 at 4:05 PM

Daniel Gookins is even on Geni. (He's my 11th great grandfather.) You can also read more about him here:

4/25/2014 at 7:15 PM

Im not Dead Mark: Im doing my own tree privately, but if I find something of value I post it. Im still comitted to finding where the confusion lies in this jumble of names and persons. fyi same site for early arrivers includes Thomas Price (ap Rice) arriving in Vairgina 1653 sponsored by Rice Hughes. I put that up 6 months back that's code for Perrot ap Rice who changed his life and his location for stealing a shipload of goods. DCR

John Smith
4/25/2014 at 8:54 PM

Peace Out
1. A slang term telling someone good-bye, used with a hand gesture in which you pound your chest with your fist twice, then give the peace sign.

So Dale, you said a very definitive "Goodbye" at 1:24 but then posted again a mere two hours later at 3:23.
I believe this is what Mark was referring to when he said that he thought you "were out". It is precisely these kinds of communication that confuse the issue, and keep us from understanding just what the heck it is that you are trying to say.

In fact, you have said Goodbye to GENi many times over the last year but have never actually left the site. Maybe you should stop saying Goodbye and just settle in for the long haul as we try to learn the truth of your ancestry.

Ok? Ok.


4/25/2014 at 11:32 PM ABSTRACTS of Virginia Land Patents: Find first, John Landman then John Perrott followed by Wm. Gooch, gentleman.

Scrol 1/4 way down and you will find John Perrott purchasing 800 acres of land1637 for 4,000 pounds of Tobacco 16 August 1637 At Pigge Pt. and Burbage Creek Va. So Parrott/Parrette arrives 1623 he or his son does well enough to purchase 800 acres with 2 tons of Tobacco after 14 years. Prunella arrives 1635 fyi. DCR

4/26/2014 at 12:24 AM

I hope the good notes are being added to the profile overview in a ==notes== section?

4/26/2014 at 12:31 AM

I have located a John Perratt in North Devon community of Hartland ca 1600-1623. Scroll down to Chapter 1 past figure 1 and the following phrase: Dynam Survey of 1566 Records John Perrette held the Barton Tennancy of Burresdon Moore, Curresdon Mede and East Downefor. The spelling is crucial because Perratt is how the family in Barbados spelled the name but they were at least grand children of John Perratt 1572. Clearly I cannot tell if this is the same man.

I put up reaserch findings: I would not dream of adding anything to a file at this point. DCR

4/26/2014 at 2:57 AM

I think we're looking at at least 3 different families. Perratt of Devon, Parrot of VA, Perrot of Wales.

4/26/2014 at 2:52 PM

Yes. It''s difficult to see how a John Parrott born 1572 in West Wales could have been the father of a John Perrott or Perratt born 1586 somewhere . A little sexually precocious, if you ask me.

A North Devon connection with Barbados would not be surprising.


4/26/2014 at 11:54 PM

Since John Perratt II 1572 is reportedly the full blood brother of James born to Sir John and Sybil Jones, I think we have the proximity to put these people together without a stretch. I am working dilligently to get that record. DCR

4/28/2014 at 5:31 AM

James VI King of Scots, James I King of England & Ireland

Please review for accuracy. If I can depend on this Geni affiliation I will publish to my family this year. The closness of the ap Rice's to the Tudor's is beyond dispute, and so the story of Perrott ap Rice and John Rice becomes more real as each revelation of these family lines converge upon ap Rice and Sir John Perrott at Carew Castle in 1590 and his son Perratt II in Havorford West 1599 cannont be dismissed in my view. DCR

Private User
4/28/2014 at 2:13 PM

My goodness...! I believe I am witnessing confrontation on Geni ! Who would have believed it !

4/28/2014 at 4:06 PM

Verification not confrontation Ms. Saylor. My search is unique and not shared by most of the community, but that is okay by me, I just want to be clear about what is true and what is not true. DCR

John Smith
4/28/2014 at 6:16 PM

Did Dale C. Rice really just say, "I just want to be clear about what is true and what is not true"?

4/28/2014 at 11:52 PM

Please verify this linkage, I would not want to assume too much for John Rice of Dedham & North Walsham 1530.

4/29/2014 at 12:06 AM

The chart shows that according to information currently on Geni you are not related to Charles II, except for the marriage of a very distant cousin to one of his descendants. That seems right.

4/29/2014 at 9:45 AM

Thank you Justin: I appreciate that. DCR

4/29/2014 at 12:38 PM

The Miraculous algorythem here at Geni shows far greater connectedness of the Ancestors of whom I was unaware when we began this search for TRUTH. Lettice Knollys, Countess of Essex & Leicester I deduce therefore, that the links of my spindly tree are not as Robust , yet they do connect to the same data sets by different ROUTES, and therefore I have been seeking the "TRUTH" without bennefit of crucial links or data.(making this exponentially more hard) & a lot of floundering has come and gone over the past year. The Pin Post linkages makes this now possible to discern.
Sir James Perrot, MP This is a Royal connection previously unknown to me but demonstraits it's power, James son of Sybile Johns is Brother to John Perratt 1572 of Waterford, but is not yet proved.

I claim John Rice, 1630 of North Walsham , as the very same who came to America about 1640-41 when his Brother and Father accompanied him to the people who had raised him in East Anglia but for their own reasons left him behind in the care of Perrott ap Rice1600 per the testimony, & by means of a PRIVATE Ship salvaged by Perratt II in August 1629, nine (9) months before John Rice was baptised in North Walsham May 2, 1630; or in the vessel known as the "Sparrow", Purloined with a cargo of Cromwellian supplies. (This is at least a second round trip for Perratt II who firstly arrived in Virginia, 1623 aborard the Providence). (Situation unknown, and needs clairification).

I understand that you disagree vhemently about this, but since my Family has all the features of at least 5 Kings on their faces,(The Best have not been shown but include Louis XI, James I, Henry Tudor VII and VIII Elizabeth I ), and now we have the Proofs here on Geni in these detailed affiliations, one must choose the testimony-story, now backed by DNA of both Phillips line, and Perrott, lines via brother James Perrott , son of Sybile Rhys- Johns: and James son of Thomas Perrott son of Sir John & Dorothy Devereau.

This is complicated to say the least, and hense much of the confusion to both Historian and family Perrott , secondarialy to me the CATALYST & Far distant grandson, looking back in time with uncertain family links. But History will not be thwarted by interpretation, History demands it's own recognition and that's what I am about here, doing what I do in the ways I know yield results.

Sir Thomas Perrott, son of Sir John and Anne Cheney-Perrott has a son "James" by wifeDorothy Devereau, and so does the person known as John Perratt II 1572, son of same GrandFATHER Sir John 1528, but is not yet fully doccumented. Nevertheless, The line of Perrott's in Barbados spelled PERRATT, can now be linked in their "Unknown" history of that family via the DAVIS line 1729. Which also links to James, son of John Perratt II son of Sybile Johns. The Person Perratt II "The Quaker" died impoverished by high living in Barbados. You recall the Wm. Davis of 1650 24/25 Match on my DNA test early in Sept. 2013.

Both, of these lines Carry Tudor DNA but the James Perrott of Devereau has both the X of his mother via Knollys, and Y of Tudor influence in Thomas, son Sir John 1528. (Unhappily I think, that family line stops in Virginia) leaving the son James, son of Perratt II and Sybile emigrate to Barbados at some point 1645, after the conversion to Quaker belief. The Remarriage of John Perratt II to Elizabeth and they go to the Quaker outpost in Barbados, where much controversy occurs in removing one's hat during Prayer time and the Founder George Fox is deemed to be acting un brotherly in his Edicts.(see history of Quaker founding fathers).

The trip yields two daughters who marry into Mayo and Steager lines, befor Perratt II Dies there in 1665. For their own reasons, the family choose to dis-associate from Perratt & his Pope-Conversion antics, but keep the Family Crest of Sir John Perrott 1528. The son of Perratt II and Prunella is:

Judge Richard Perrott 1616 + Margaret Haywood of Virginia = Elizabeth Perrott 1645-1729 + John Burford of Christ Church Va. = Thomas Burford 1663-1716 of ChristChurch, VA + Mary Long= Mary Chrispin 1690-1765 Pittslevania, Va.+ Ralph Shelton of Middlesex Va.= Elizabeth Shelton 1711-1749+ Wm. Davis (m) Oct 29,1728 = Wm. Davis born 1729.

Devoreau's son James, carries the X bestowed by the ggrandmother, Catherine Carey, via daugther Lettice Knollys to Dorothy Devereau, wife of Thomas Perrott then onto son James Perrott. The same Father & grand father of both men, Sir John Perrott 1528, carries Y Tudor information into the Sons , Thomas and John Perratt by different mothers to both of their sons, James. Hense the confusion over names in Barbados and the use of the Family Crest of Perrott which links both sons to Sir John Perrott 1528.

I can deduce this because the the Phillips line and the Tudor lines have the same or near identical values, on the Y chromosome, meaning there is a common ancestor to Phillips, Perrott via Tudor, and John Rice 1630.

This is a lengthy process of refinement, & I know I have not proved this yet, but it is far, far closer to being a reality than it was last year at this time. I have posted the Values for both Perrott and Tutor-Tudor in I-1 haplogroups as well as John RIce 1624-30. Understanding this knot of names and relationships takes time, and it is yielding to my search. DCR1948

4/29/2014 at 2:22 PM

The reason it is "exponentially more hard" is that you're going about it backwards. Instead of documenting step-by-step, the way genealogists do it, you are looking for any path that gives you the answer you want.

4/29/2014 at 2:27 PM

This is a secondary link to my family story. They would not be here had my ancestor John Rice 1630 not been sought out by the various lines of people who married into his family in Dedham. That is my inductive position. We agree to disagree on this, but the clues show up this way and I don't have the knowledge base that historians do to ask the right questions. Therefore my backward approach works for me until I can get the hang of the "approved method" DCR 1948 I do know the difference.

4/29/2014 at 2:53 PM

Justin: I am answering objections raised by the Historians here, which I cannot raise because I am not them. This has been the MO since day one, posing the affirmative to derive the Question to be investigated. I know it's backward, but that's just the pont...If I don't know the question which needs to asked&nanswered, then I can't very well look in the direction to find the answer. That's how I found the two James Perrott. DCR

4/29/2014 at 2:54 PM

typo on answered. Sorry.

4/29/2014 at 2:59 PM

Dale, you said "They would not be here had my ancestor John Rice 1630 not been sought out by the various lines of people who married into his family in Dedham."

This idea is core to your approach, but it's just wrong. I can't imagine any historian or genealogist accepting that premise.

What you are seeing is just random mixing. You can find distant, tenuous relationships to your colonial immigrant, so you think he must have been special.

But what you're seeing is also true of EVERY OTHER English colonial immigrant. He's special to you, but he wasn't special to his contemporaries. He was about as ordinary as they come. He didn't even make it to the level of local gentry.

4/29/2014 at 3:18 PM

Yes, I understand your point. Before a premise can be offered, one must first pose a question based upon known facts. Coming to that has been long and at times painful process. I continue to labor in the field I have chosen. Kind regards Dale C. Rice 1948

John Smith
4/29/2014 at 4:52 PM

Speculation - the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence.

Conjecture - an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.

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