John Rice, of Dedham

Started by Justin Durand on Sunday, March 30, 2014
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5/22/2014 at 10:31 AM

Mark: My father's testimony indicated a family by the Name of LOVE (married Simon Perrott) Brother John with no heirs was not just a merchant in LONDON he was a Habedasher and my father was inspired to make his woolen dress coat jacket which he was burried in. Also it would be nice to know the DATE, is that discernable? I couldn't tell from page 128. This looks and sounds right if the DATE can be identified in the 1580-1610 range? DCR

5/22/2014 at 12:47 PM

Dear Dale,

The heraldic visitations (of which this was a transcript) almost never give dates. Some of the Harleian Society publications are better at doing so, because they were prepared by genealogists who had spent (in some cases) life-times looking up inquisition post-mortems, wills, etc, etc. For example - although it is not much use to you at the moment - the Harleian Society "Pedigrees of Lincolnshire" takes up no less than four volumes based on Heraldic Visitations, but giving a lot of dates etc: all of it the work of one obsessive genealogist in the nineteenth century.

You can try Famillysearch, but with the reservations that Justin has expressed. Or Google "Simon Perrott married Love" and you might get results. Whether those results are trustworthy is something you have to judge. If an apparent match comes up in Rootsweb, sometimes this has real and very serious scholarship and sometimes nonsense.

I forget (if I ever knew) what part Perrott ap Rhys plays in your father's story, or when he was supposed to have lived. But this seems to me a quite good place to look:

John ap Rice, of Rickeston

It's just the period when it was becoming fashionable to call a son by a related surname (especially if he was going to inherit something, but often just because the other family was a step up on the social ladder.

.....And I see in putting up the link that it was you who put in the profile. I told you that the Perrotts of Scotsborough were worth looking at. They are supposed to have a connection to the Tudors, but a much earlier one (to Tewdyr Mawr, King of South Wales). One link seems to me slightly questionable, but no more than one expects at that time (c.1400). We can't ask the man for his photo-ID. If your profile and the rest of the tree down to you are correct. you anyway have an alternative line of descent from Tewdyr Mawr through the Wogans.

Mark

5/22/2014 at 12:54 PM

By the way, it had never occurred to me that Tewdyr was the Welsh equivalent of Theodore, although I knew that Emrys comes from Ambrosius. This extra knowledge and my assistance in the Perrotts of Scotborough is not, I hope, going to tempt me into trying to become an expert in Welsh genealogy. Too damned hard with no surnames until the sixteenth century and bloody few documents.

Mark

5/22/2014 at 1:42 PM

Well thanks Mark: Once again, I am in the debt of the superior geneaologists here at geni. I am a simple guy with a quest, and make no bones about being on bottom of the totem pole. The Perrott's and the ap RICES are conjoined in Tenby @ Carew I say, and Im glad to know my father was not dreaming. DCR

5/22/2014 at 1:53 PM

Mark: This is but one of the many connections my ancestor had to the Tudors...you may recall my assertion last year that Elizabeth Blount, was a 1/2 sister to Elizabeth I and was older too boot. Her mother was referred to as "Bessie: as in Bless ye Bessie Bloount" for the daughter she gave to Henry VIII. I know John ap Rice fairly well, and this connection may be of interest....Thanks to Justin, he and Kris Stewart put things in order and sequence last year when I had William Rice in the wrong family. So that's been cleared up for a year now. Regards.
http://www.geni.com/path/Dale+C+Rice+is+related+to+William+Blount+I...

5/22/2014 at 2:29 PM

Yes, but almost any of us are likely to be descendants of Tewdyr Mawr. I "know" I am. I'll do the rest of the Scotsborough Perrotts out of interest (there does seem to be a connection with the Haroldston family further up) but then I'll do a family more closely connected to my own tree.

The Oxfordshire Perrotts should have been more aware that Sir James Perrott was looking desperately for a Perrott heir Of course their tree may also be made up, but on the whole I think probably not. At any rate, they got the details of their alleged ancestry roughly right, at around the same time as him.

Mark

5/22/2014 at 5:14 PM

Well, since I was well aware of these persons as likely ancestors but Geni had not made them part of my tree, I did not show them to anyone, because I could not prove it. Hense, I was doing a lot of reading and my conjecture came from that reading.....and then someone took pity on me, and showed me how to use the machinery....I am in his debt, and I wish he could see the results that have begun to pour in. Alas: He got so cross with me and I with him that we could no longer communicate. I am truely greateful for his attention that was positive. DCR 1948

5/23/2014 at 5:25 AM

Private

Mark : My father mentioned the Joyce connection in 1978, but I didn't know how they connected....looks like this is the branch for sure. I know he mentioned it because my cousin's name was Joyce/ and I thought of James Joyce/Ullissies which just came back to me looking at this file.

L3: I had traced that affiliation to Tewdwr ap Cadell early on in my search when I thought the Link to Henry was more firm here on Geni. Again, my interpretation of relationships was based upon the info here...and one of my first watercolors is of the woman I took to be Princess of Powys who married Rhys ap Tewdwr. My, instinct was drawn to this affiliation early on in my search...just fyi. DCR

5/23/2014 at 5:28 AM

http://www.geni.com/path/Sir+John+Joyce+of+Prendergast+is+related+t...

You'll need the Share mode for B. M. Rice above to see the Joyce connection. DCR

5/23/2014 at 6:03 AM

http://www.geni.com/path/Sir+Herbert+Perrott+MP+is+related+to+Sir+J...

Note the name Elizabeth JENKEYN....I have a DNA Y match with this family, which as you recall led me to King Edward IV cornering the Tudor's in Wales in the rebellion whle Edward was in Scotland ca 1400. There must be some Perrott/ap Rice/ Jenkeyn ....would be interesting to figure out too. DCR

5/23/2014 at 6:31 AM

http://www.geni.com/path/Richard+FitzGilbert+de+Bienfaite+Lord+of+C...

Mark: The testimony my father gave he was trying to point out that there was some extraordinary Cross Roads of Famlies if you will in the person of John Rice 1630. Is this unusual to have these cross connections from the Norman invasion back to WM the Conquorer and all the subsequent families that came over? I.E. de La Roache of Wales, Perrott of Scottsborough, ap Rice of Wales, Tewdwr, Mortimer, Jenkyn, and the ever present John Lackland he was pointing me to? Is this usual? Im getting a little overwhelmed because everyone seems intermarried and cross connected...I know you've mentioned this as has Justin....but this getting hard to track. DCR

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5/23/2014 at 7:29 AM

Dale, by the time you find ancestors that far back, anybody who *can* find ancestors that far back is a relative. It's called "pedigree collapse", and happens because the theoretical number of possible ancestors is *much* higher than the available number of persons living at the time. Every time cousins marry - whether they know they are cousins or not, and some may not have realized it - the number of actual ancestors goes down.

John Lackland is a bottleneck - the only son of Henry II and Eleanor to leave (legitimate) descendants. William and Young Henry died too young, Richard would rather make war than make love, and John himself did in Geoffrey's children. ("King John was not a good king / He had his little ways", as A.A. Milne put it.)

Yes, it gets complicated. I'm having trouble with just 6 or 7 generations on the lower Delmarva - cousin city!

5/23/2014 at 8:05 AM

Thankyou Maven: The Pedigree Collapse is something I recognized a while back when someone posted about the thousands of GP's and the numbers exceed the number of persons alive. I do grasp that. It's going to be a challenge to explain to very ordinary family people who know nothing of these affiliations and regard my search as suspicious, and somewhat off-putting to our joint, common life of the past 50 years.

This is not fun I can tell you when people call you names, and assign motives that are simply untrue, and to have this come from family and observers here required my toughest POLICE OFFICER shell of resistence to let it all bounce off. I knew there was something unknown that my Dad was trying to pass along.

I have spent a good deal of time looking at various DNA signatures from Wm. The Conquorer forward and the pattern which emerges to my beginner eyes and mind is that the Scandanavian Common Ancestor to Wm. The Conquorer and the projected values he shares with the Tudor/Plantagentes/Perrotts is I-1(the first haplogroup to arrive?) And the second arrival group is the R1b1 which is a later development according to the Research of Haplogroups. This spread of time? JUSTIN? is about 6,000 years. My estimate of 3,000 years before Wm. T. C. would mean in round numbers that the Common Ancestor was in Scotland about 2,000 BCE. Who is that person? Does anyone know? DCR 1948

5/23/2014 at 12:29 PM

Dale,

The Perrotts are nowhere near in complete order yet. This is going to take me some time, and there may always be gaps, false claims of descent, etc.

Your primary task (if you are still hooked on the Perrots rather than other parts of your family tree) is to identify the John Perrott who arrived in Virginia in 1623. Looking at the Pembrokeshire Perrots and their various branches (or the branches who claimed descent from them) the most likely candidate I have found is the John Perrott on p. 128 of the Oxfordshire visitations. Sometimes one strikes lucky in the Visitations, and someone has mentioned of their brother (or whoever) "in Virginia. Here not. So at present there is no way to prove. disprove, or even establish a probability that the two John Perrots were the same. He is at least a reasonable candidate: a younger (sixth) son of a pretty well-off family, and (apparently) alive at the time of the 1635 Visitation (again, this Visitation does not really leave you in luck, because while they frequently say whether someone is alive or dead, this one doesn't, so he might have died in the cradle for all you or I know). And who knows how many hundreds of Perrotts may have existed in England and Wales who were completely unrelated?

So here's what you do. You know he arrived in 1623. If my memory is right, you know the ship he arrived on (the "Swallow", yes?). American obsession with early immigrants seems to me to make it probably fairly easy to find who else arrived on the "Swallow", and perhaps even where she sailed from. It is quite likely that most of the passengers originated in the same area; these weren't people who booked a schedued aircraft - they probably had to club together to hire a ship . So you look at the other arrivals on the ship to see whether you can identify that area. This search will be a little complicated by the fact that many of them will have attracted false (and often randomly false) ancestors in 1880-1910, the golden age of false genealogy in the USA. But, if you can establish that the catchment area of a good number of arrivals is Oxfordshire or around Oxfordshire, you have a good - even a probable - candidate, which you then make more probable by finding some credible dates for the rest of his family and an absence of a burial date for him in Drayton, Woodstock, or Oxford.

At that point I think that I would find it sufficiently credible that (in your position) I would put on his ancestry myself - but with a note in the "About Section" explaining exactly why I thought the person who was born in England was the person who died in Amerikey. I think I would try to clear that note with Erica or Justin first; the drive and enthusiasm of your Quest often (as you know) prompts people to disbelief rather than belief, and a note identifying an American immigrant with someone born in Britain has to show that you have examined the likelihoods of them being the same person with a proper skepticism, and not identified them as the same just because you want to believe it.

Mark

5/23/2014 at 1:23 PM

Splendid Mark: I'll take your advice. I am in deep read mode as we speak looking at all names Perrott/Berkley of Wales and Pembrokshire. I have seen the other Perrott's but they mostly test R1b so I can't get too excited about them outside of Havorford West and Carew. Thanks again, Im marching on toward the Perrott who have I-1 Haplo and looking for them around the Perratt River and Virginia. just fyi: the "Swallow" is the ship my ancestor was salvadging at Havorford west 1629. The ship the John Perrott of 1623 arrived on was the "Providence" and Thomas Price arrived on the "Star" in Virginia ca 1655 met by Rice-Hughes of ???Virginia.

5/23/2014 at 2:25 PM

We've been over some of this ground before. To shorten the process this time, last time around we found:

John Parratt came to Virginia in 1623 on the Providence as a servant of Daniel Gookins. John was age 36 in 1624/5.

http://www.packrat-pro.com/ships/providence.htm

He must have gained means to later bring over servants of his own.

JOHN PARROTT, 750 acres lying northerly upon the river of Nansemund, and westerly upon a great bay running for Paroketo point. Due for the transportation of nine persons whose names appear below. By West, May 24th, 1635. John Parrott, Priscilla [sic] Parrott his wife, John Bodin, James Traneere [sic], John Morgan, Thomas Banton, Georg [sic] Clarke, Georg [sic] Heele, Thomas Cottle.

Capt. John West to JOHN PARROTT, 450 acres, May 29, 1635, North upon Nansemond River. For trans, of himself and Prunella [sic], his wife, John Bodin, James Traverse, John Morgan, Tho. Banton, Georg [sic] Clarke, George Heele, Thomas Cottle.

In other words, by 1635 John Parrott could afford to pay ship's passage to Virginia for these people (who would have been his indentured servants) and he received land in return (a "headright"). By Virginia standards this was a fairly modest effort, putting him among the middle class but not the gentry.

There might be some room to doubt that these two Johns were the same man, except for the significant point that the man who received the grants in 1635 received them in the same settlement (Nansemond River) as Daniel Gookins, the man who brought John Parrott to Virginia in 1623.

I've said before that the origin Daniel Gookins might provide a clue to the origin of this John Parratt. Gookins came from Ripple in Kent, to co. Cork in Ireland, to Virginia, and back to Cork.

5/23/2014 at 2:45 PM

Thanks for that Re-cap Justin: Some new information to me to be sure. Do you think this discussion should be cut at a place of your choosing and moved to the disussion about illegitimate sons of John Perrott? I feel like we have not kept the John Rice thread as clear as your early work here indicates. Im fine with that if you wish...Justin. DCR

5/23/2014 at 6:02 PM

http://www.geni.com/path/Dale+C+Rice+is+related+to+Agnan+Fionn+Fion...

Any Bets he's I-1 and not R1b1? Ancient line of Kings is not far off the mark eh? DCR

5/23/2014 at 6:16 PM

He's 's mythical; the invention of medieval monks. I'd say chances are good is haplogroup is Zero ;)

5/24/2014 at 12:29 AM

Justin,

Many apologies for the memory lapse.

Dale,

As the Virginia John Perrott/ Perratt arrived from Cork as the servant of Daniel Gookins, there are two possibilities.

(a) he was Irish.
(b) (probably more likely) he was an English settler who had gone to Cork in the service of Daniel Gookins.

In either case, I am afraid your chances of identifying him with a probability that is likely to satisfy any genealogist are extremely low. It is not outside the bounds of possibility that the John Perrott of Oxfordshire (sixth son) with a relation who was a merchant in London might end up in the service of a man from Kent, but the only way in which you could turn this into a hypothesis worth recording in genealogical terms is if you could demonstrate some business or other relationship between Daniel Gookins and the London merchant. Since Gookins has obviously been thoroughly researched and thrown up no leads apart from his own career and his descendants, I reluctantly conclude that your chances of doing so are probably close to zero. If you want to persist your best, but not very good, bet is to look up the characters involved in the UK National Archives.

Mark

5/24/2014 at 1:32 AM

Mark, I think the whole Gookins thing was a bit before you stepped in. I won't say "before your time" ;)

It only sticks in my mind because old Dan Gookins is one of my ancestors, and one of only a handful who served in the Virginia House of Burgesses.

There are certainly some odd "near misses" here. Remember that John Perrott the Quaker was born in Ireland. There is speculation that he was descended illegitimately from John Perrot the Lord Deputy, but perhaps we can set that aside as just the wishful thinking of his descendants.

We know from the dates that John Parrott in Virginia was not the same man as John Perrott the Quaker, but it's interesting that Virginia John might also have been from Ireland.

I'm not an expert on Virginia immigration, but it strikes me as odd that John Parrott came first as servant to another man, who got land for bringing him, then later got land for bringing himself and a small group of his own servants. The system was intended to create a tenant class, although it didn't work out that way in many cases. The system was also open to abuse. Still. An indentured servant who does well enough that he can serve 6 or 7 years, then 5 years later be affluent enough to pay passage for 8 others, and get land for himself and them? There has to be more to that story.

I wonder if it's possible that John Parrott lent his name and efforts to Gookins' settlement project, then when it succeeded had access to a small bit of family money to set himself up the same way on a smaller scale. That could fit the profile you've drawn of the 6th son of a gentry family.

Finally, a quick search shows me there were many Perrott families in Kent at this period. Some near the Gookins family, but none actually in Ripple. Some intriguing possibilities in that, although it's just one possibility. Many of the Virginia cavaliers came from families that had already tried to make a go of settlement in Ireland, so Kent could be a red herring.

5/24/2014 at 2:41 AM

I don't accept the idea that there is any real tradition linking the Perrot and Rice families. As near as I can tell, that idea is only the outcome of the debate here, of trying to find a way John Rice could be descended from Henry VIII. After months of false starts, the idea of a connection to the ap Rice family at Tenby emerged, and then it was just a short jump to speculate that they were really Perrotts.

Most of us have said from the beginning that it is very unlikely Puritan John Rice in Massachusetts would have any connection with Cavalier John Parrott in Virginia. The people in the different colonies moved in different circles. There are only a handful of cases where someone from Virginia went to Massachusetts, or vice versa.

What's interesting here is that Gookins family is one of the few that moved between colonies. The elder Daniel Gookins came to Virginia but eventually returned to Ireland, where he died in 1633. His son of the same name was in London in 1639, returned to Virginia in 1641, but eventually settled in Massachusetts.

These dates don't work for the younger Daniel Gookins to have brought John Rice to Massachusetts. Gookins wasn't there until much later.

But, here's something even odder. Thwaite Strickland and his wife Elizabeth Disborough were early settlers at Dedham, Mass. We pointed out a long time that Elizabeth was from Mistley (Essex), where a John Ries, of Mistley was born in 1629 who (at a long shot) could be Dale's John Rice. This Elizabeth was daughter of Edward Shepard, of Cambridge, Mass., whose 1674 will was witnessed by (ta da!) Daniel Gookin, Jr. and his son Daniel Gookin, III.

There are some other relationships that are a bit too complex for me to grasp this late at night. Elizabeth Shepard of Dedham seems to have been a relative of the Thomas Shepard who chose Daniel Gookin as his guardian in 1649, and that Thomas Shepard later married a relative of Gookin's 2nd wife.

Just an odd coincidence among the citizens of a relatively small colony? Or something significant?

For future reference:
Biography of the younger Daniel Gookin, with
https://archive.org/stream/danielgookin161200gook#page/n9/mode/2up

5/24/2014 at 8:27 AM

http://www.geni.com/path/Adam+le+Perot+is+related+to+Margaret+ap+Ri...

So if I am understinding your observation Justin, the Geni linkage above is in error? DCR

5/24/2014 at 8:35 AM

http://www.geni.com/path/Sir+Herbert+Perrott+Pakington+MP+5th+Baron...

This is the other RICE family in Ma. and they also seem to link to a Perrott, is this not accurate? Who will do the chopping off of these erroneous links? From past experience those corrections made the case of the testimony stronger, so have it I suppose? DCR

5/24/2014 at 8:35 AM

Where do you see that I said something like that??

5/24/2014 at 9:03 AM

Re: Posting at 2:41 AM first line. In any event, the John Perratt II using the spelling of the Place: River as opposed to family Perrott smacks of a disenherited person relegated to near Poverty and thus went to Va to serve in the Gookin family and then doing well enough to re-invent himself financially.

When you say they are not the same is that because the person born in 1587 and is 36 years old in 1623 can't be the same person? Looks like a son of the 1565 John Perratt II and companion/brother of James Perrott to me.

In any event he fits the testimony: "TRACT Writer: Author & firebrand debator with George Fox, and the family moved onto Barbados, where we have the tesimonial Names of Fox, Mayo, and Steager/Seager to lead us. This link is particularly complete in its assessment of the Educated man that did all the preaching, writing etc.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~parrott/john-quak... DCR

5/24/2014 at 9:50 AM

The chronologies of the two John Perrotts conflict badly, Dale. We've been through this before. In 1623 John Parratt of Nansemond River is already in Virginia, and in 1635 he's a Planter. Yet in 1656 John Perrott the Quaker is still a youngish man in Ireland just getting started on his bizarre career. Your version would have him zig zagging back and forth between Virginia and England with a little trip to Italy, now a respectable planter, now a Quaker firebrand.

John Parrott in Virginia disappears from the records about 1650, when he was about 60. Probably he died. Your version would put him back in Ireland as a preacher just starting out in 1656 (age 66), take him to Rome at age 68, immigrating to Barbados at 72.

They are clearly not the same man. The idea is too absurd for serious consideration. However, they could have been close relatives, although there's no evidence of that.

Also remember that spelling is not meaningful evidence of anything at this period. Remember that River Parrett is in Dorset and Somerset, at some distance from the ap Rices in Pembroke and the John Perrott family in Ireland. Also, you have the inconvenient problem that the spelling of John Parrott's name in Virginia is Parrott, not Parrett.

Finally, I think it's worth remembering that farmers don't become magically wealthier than their neighbors. Far from fitting the profile of a disinherited son, the profile of John Parrott of Virginia suggests a man who had family money. He came as an indentured servant in 1623, probably served 6 or 7 years, but by 1635 had the means to pay ship's passage for 9 people. Not likely he got that kind of money just by pinching pennies for 5 years. He would have made only a subsistence living. The kind of financial reinvention you envision just wasn't possible for a man of his station.

5/24/2014 at 10:34 AM

I think you have forgotten the Premise: "He came to America and started over as John Rice". Therefore we have to answer, WHO, WHAT, WHEN, WHERE, HOW, and if possible WHY?

We have the inter- weaveing 3 men life-stories, and the intent then was to confuse and confound those who may follow and try to regain what as purloined.

Clearly, we have 3 lifetimes intermixed. Our job is not to put them in one sequence, but to UNDERSTAND how and WHY they connect. This story is a significant one which my father passed along, in my view. Here's more evidence of a Royal connection and the flight of Perrott ap Rice ca 1600 with his son and likely father Perratt II or his son born 1587. Be patient, this knot is being unraveled one thread at a time. DCR

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