John Rice, of Dedham

Started by Justin Durand on Sunday, March 30, 2014
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8/23/2014 at 10:27 AM

Yep, that's the one.

8/23/2014 at 1:48 PM

Lloyd,

I suspect that if Dale were paying professional researchers he would end up with rubbish and a large bill. This seems to me to be the result of his DNA searches. Of course I would like to be paid something where I knew I could get results, but why should anyone be such a sucker?

I think if John Rice of Dedham comes from East Anglia there are chances of providing a (probable) ancestry. The church records are quite good. In parts of East Anglia/ East Midlands society was more equal, so that (for example) in Lincolnshire more people owned property, left wills, sued each other about the property, etc than would be the case in (say) Northumberland, where bizarre feudal practices persisted at the beginning of the nineteenth century (the beating of the bounds in Whitfield, for example, where the inheritor of the estate went around with his chief tenants and drummers dressed in white to show the boundaries of his land holding)

There is a manor in Leicestershire (Kimbolton, I think) which was given to Merton College, Oxford (in the 13th or 14th centuries) where the records of the tenantry have been meticulously kept and still survive today. So if anyone was interested they could produce a very ancient probable ancestry (and quite an interesting one: they sued the government because their rights as part of "the community of England" had been breached after Simon de Montfort's defeat).

Probable? No, I think. Possible? Yes, perhaps, as aninteresting case. The best use of our time? Probably not , but how we spend our time is up to us.

Mark

8/23/2014 at 2:55 PM

Mark - a little dichotomy on your points ?

"Parish records in East Anglia are good ..."
"Paying a researcher waste of time & money ...."

Wouldn't hiring a local East Anglia oriented reputable genealogist to dig into the parish records for Rice's & Hackley's in fact be a possibly productive avenue?

8/23/2014 at 3:43 PM

Some things to keep in mind:

- There's a difference between a professional genealogist and professional record searcher.

- Not all parish records survive for this time period, so there is a risk that the relevant record is missing.

- The ERA is already doing a survey of records involving people with the surname Rice. I don't know how structured their effort, but they publish results from time to time.

- The ERA hired a genealogist to look at the records in Stanstead. Edmund Rice and another man surnamed Rice in an adjoining village married sisters, but the ERA doesn't accept that as evidence that the two men were related.

- The DNA proof that John Rice was not the son of Edmund Rice is still so recent in research terms that the John Rice descendants haven't fully organized their own search. And, if the ERA were to find anything relevant to John Rice they would certainly be in a position to realize the significance.

8/23/2014 at 3:44 PM

Dale, I deleted your post as off-topic in this discussion. Please post in the discussion you've created for your DNA theories.

8/24/2014 at 1:38 PM

Isabel,

You might be right, but so far as I can see, as soon as you pay money the person you pay feels that they ought to come up with results, even ones they don't believe in. (I wish someone would pay me; but if they did I would feel guilty about charging them for a complete blank).

As Justin says, there are some very good record-searchers and often for individual parishes they are free. (Depends from area to area, obviously). Sometimes they have access to other genealogical material like wills, or previous research; sometimes they don't. My prejudiced view is that the DNA testers, even though the theory may be correct, make most of their money out of people who have not done the paper-trail properly; and though their results may be correct I suspect that they do not clearly state the limits of those results.

Mark

8/24/2014 at 1:52 PM

Great clarifications, thank you. I am only familiar with (generally positive) experiences at third hand recount, and less so for England than other locations.

8/27/2014 at 5:57 PM

Find a record of John Rice's sons signature on pages 121,171, 252,287 (son of John Rice) 1707,291 (family still in Sudbury) pg. 325 1739.

https://archive.org/stream/historyofsudbury00huds#page/356/mode/2up

12/6/2014 at 3:40 PM

Please see this record for Ann Hackly born 1623 mother not listed. Father = David Hackley. 1978 conversation was that Ann Hackley was NPE. The site has dozens of Ann Hackleys several Born 1620's and no mother listed. I suppose one of them could be my 6th ggm Anne Hackley. The two NPE's in this case were matched? By Reverend Allin's wife Dorothy....? Colburne-Hampshire England. There are Colburn's in my family tree.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NBTZ-79N

12/6/2014 at 3:59 PM

This Ann Hackley married David Cook. We've been through this before.

Anne Cook

12/6/2014 at 11:41 PM

There are about 6 such Anne's on this site. I couln't tell from the data set who she was. Did you see the others?

12/8/2014 at 1:25 AM

Some time back I found Dorothy Allin had a daughter named Ann by James Hackley in England. I thought she might be a sister of Rev. Allin who ended up marrying the widow of Gov. Dudley. Now that I've set the table of names and place...this is almost what my father was describing. This is not a Theory any longer Jusin. Who is she please?

http://www.geni.com/path/Squire-Thomas-Dudley+is+related+to+Dorothy...

12/9/2014 at 12:34 AM

http://www.geni.com/path/H%C3%A5kon-V-Magnusson+is+related+to+Dorot...

Note that the J2a1a Mt. DNA signature of my family is well represented in this lineage. Mothers to daughters to sons. I don't know who Margoria was, mother to Reginald but it holds through all the Spanish females down to Dorothy Allin. If she is the mother of Ann Hackley....we may have something to research further.

12/9/2014 at 11:27 PM

Ms. Erica: Do you think the Dorothy Allin-Hackley sister of Rev. John Allin is the mother of Ann? Please check post of 1:25 AM in Blue related to Thomas Dudley. Thank you DCR

12/10/2014 at 7:03 AM

Dale, John Allin had a sister Dorothy / Dorothea who married Thomas Barker and William Davye.

On Geni, he has now acquired another sister Dorothy Allin, who is also his wife.

If there was a Dorothy Allen who married James Hackley, that would be a good lead, but you'll need to provide a link to your source.

12/10/2014 at 8:20 AM

Thank you for your response Justin. Since my father knew of and mentioned the name Barker ( I also had worked for a Barker and used that to recall this name), he must have been describing the lineage to Ann Hackley...which I did not understand at the time.

Last Summer before my hiatus I had found this Dorothy Allin & James Hackley reference on line...I believe I moved it to Geni Files under documents I'll see if I can relocate it. DCR

12/10/2014 at 8:26 AM

Thank you for your response Justin. Since my father knew of and mentioned the name Barker ( I also had worked for a Barker and used that to recall this name), he must have been describing the lineage to Ann Hackley...which I did not understand at the time.

Last Summer before my hiatus I had found this Dorothy Allin & James Hackley reference on line...I believe I moved it to Geni Files under documents I'll see if I can relocate it. DCR

12/10/2014 at 8:38 AM

So it appears it's DAvid Hackley father of Anne 1626 here:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NBTZ-79N

12/10/2014 at 9:05 AM

And that's the same Anne who married David Cook. No mention of an Allin.

12/10/2014 at 9:35 AM

I'm going to leave this for Erica. I imagine she will cut the marriage of Rev. John Allin to his sister Dorothy, merge her with the real sister Dorothea, and wait for you to come up with your reference to an Allin-Hackley marriage.

The only thing I find online is your own statement as Family Pursuit, a few weeks ago:
http://www.familypursuit.com/genealogy/allen_dorothy/dorothy-allen-...

12/10/2014 at 9:50 AM

Yes, well it's all very confusing......The brother sister thing especially. That's why I put it up. Too bad about James Hackley find and Dorothea, I'll look some more. DCR

11/8/2019 at 11:07 AM

Wow I am almost compelled to gather up all the links to these various different conversations regarding this just so it's easier for the next person who comes along to clean all of the opinions links and information that have been provided throughout the last near-decade regarding this story!

11/8/2019 at 2:55 PM

We tried to organize all the research into this project:

https://www.geni.com/projects/John-Rice-of-Dedham-Ancestry/14821

Hope it helps.

11/8/2019 at 9:54 PM

Thank you Erica it would seem going back through the records that you have done an extreme amount of working here

11/9/2019 at 2:18 AM

Thank you for noticing that, but the serious research was done by JS. I’m more the data entry clerk.

11/11/2019 at 3:23 PM

Sure... And then additional thanks to JS...

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