John Rice, of Dedham

Started by Justin Durand on Sunday, March 30, 2014
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5/18/2014 at 6:21 AM

I think that we have highjacked this thread...........

5/18/2014 at 7:01 AM

In the case in Point, which is my 7th great grandfather, the relatedness trails are on several different lines because there are many different sets of grandparents, which are then the triangulation evidence of a real or actual blood relationship. Those trails could not be there if A Perrott ancestor was not in Blue, and the right distance from me. Therefore, the absence of such secondary lines means there was likely no primary relationship. In my search, I have maintained all along that these relationships pointed at the Perrott (possibly Tudor but that's disputed) lines were actual and primary.
http://www.geni.com/path/Sir+James+Perrott+MP+is+related+to+B+M+Ric.... As you know Justin disagrees with my premise, but then that's okay too. Im the beginner using my mode of finding where the (Smoke in the sky is a trail which should lead one to the source). DCR 1948

5/18/2014 at 7:07 AM

PS: Just in case you don't understand how the above link applies to your comments in my view, The Brother of the man believed to be my 7th great grandfather is Sir James Perrott son of Sybile and Sir John. Without this linkage to the man Im trying to find....it would be impossible to find the person so throughly erased from a family history. We do have real hard evidence that John Perratt II was at Oxford/Grey's inn by their records. What happened to him matters to my story and my 6th great grandfather, and the GENI algorhythem is the proof that he was a real person and history says he once was a real person. DCR

5/18/2014 at 9:54 AM

thankyou

5/18/2014 at 1:48 PM

Dale,

I've just asked a curator to "erase" two long-standing mismatches in the same generation, both of them immigrants to Massachussets. Both of them have birth-dates about the same as recorded dates of birth of people of the same name, but in the case of one of them his well-attested place of birth is the opposite side of England to his supposed father, and in the case of the other there is a burial date in England. My interest in this is that our family also believed that we were descended from the Gilberts of Compton (my father, great-grandfather, and various great-uncles cousins, etc, were named Gilbert in this belief. Some of them even added "Gilbert" to their family names, like Humphrey Gilbert-Carter. If it is true, as I think it is not, it is remarkably well disguised. In the nineteenth century, it was quite fashionable to like a descent from Sir Humphrey Gilbert, because he discovered Newfoundland and what people knew about him was his magnificent last words in Hakluyt's "Voyages": "Do not fear: we are as near to heaven by sea as by land". What we know about him today is that he seems to be as near as possible to a homicidal maniac. No-one would choose to fake descent from him today.

I am prepered to believe that the John Perratt who was at Oxford was the same man who was at Grays Inn. "Alumni Oxfordiensis" will (probably) give you the name of his father, but probably nothing else. If it gives the name of his college at Oxford, this may indicate a Welsh ancestry. I do not believe that he emigrated to North America. Any lawyer, even if not liked by the authorities, was still able to make a decent living in England - just as any lawyer is today. North America then did not need lawyers - there was no living for them, though there was a good living for people with skills like blacksmiths.

Mark

5/18/2014 at 10:50 PM

I don't know how I am related to this discussion nor how I got on the receiving end of these posts. Unsubscribing has not worked. However, I must thank all of you who answer Dale because I have been the recipient of a great deal of knowledge that you point me towards. You bring up questions I have not thought to ask. For this I am quite thankful.

So, If you are nearing your wits end answering Dale, please remember that there is at least one person who reads this occasionally and benefits.

I have been recently surprised / confused / intrigued / gratified when I discovered the cause of death of one Great Grandfather and then had to research a disease, understand its progression, communicability, and consequences. I am left with a far greater appreciation than I had before the discovery. His experience certainly was not unique, and understanding disease in genealogical research seems very important.

I am blessed to have many generations of family data. I have had no cause or desire to add genetic testing to my research, and I wonder if I would jump to all sorts of invalid assumptions and questions if I pursued it. I certainly did with disease. Dale thus stands as sign post, one of those yellow diamonds warning a treacherous descent, at the very least.

5/18/2014 at 11:30 PM

The delima I have faced since day one was: "If one does not know, that one does not know, then they cannot presume to find their way to an answer that approximates reality. If, one knows that one does not know, then one can pose a search for facts/evidence Which others can point one toward the answer." (That's the premise I've been working with).

Reaching the point where we are today, we know of the person known as John Perratt II 1565 who is named by both Oxford/Grey's Inn and the testimony of my father, we have left the first state of being and are now cruising around the second state looking for evidence. Which includes DNA matches to the John Phillips of Ann, Daughter of Sir John Perrott, then : " I know that I do not know",(all the circumstances, but I can now look for an answer based upon the collective testimony of Oxford : and my father as he heard of from his father no doubt. The facts are this person was trained in law but drops off the social RADAR....and I think I know why. BAsed upon the behavior of a Great Risk taker, he crossed one too many lines of the Gentry and was forced into the world of the rabble, and has been cast out.

I know that because I asked, "Where is the estate or lands such a person should have owned? Answer: He was disowned". The trail of DNA is not yet a PROOF, but I do have a clairity now which did not surface until I found his record at OXFORD. The person named, is a disowned noble heritage/ illegitimate. Rembmering, I am assembling the pieces of a recollection from 38 years ago. This is the process of dawing ever smaller circles until we have one or two possible explainations for my known or connected ancestry as presented by GENI, and the the one I heard of once a very long time ago. The story is NOT as yet fully constituted, but I am working on the assumption that Sampson LORT's having married Lettice ap Rice my 6th great grandfather's 1/2 Brother, and the Berkley/Pugh-Perrott and John & James Perrott of Sybile Jones affiliation are all the same story related by my father.

I agree that a classically trained lawyer from Grey's Inn would not leave England for dubious digs in AMERICA. But how about one who was DISBARRED and DISENHERITED??? That's a line of inquiry which did not occur to me until you registerd your doubt so I thank you for that. There should be a reday answer that should be able to be found at GREY's INN...YES?

Together they point me toward the person described as "Slippery, Scandalous, enterprizing, and a huge Risk taker." Who ended up dying the wilderness of the James River ca 1658. His son, Perrott ap Rice, had two daughters 10 years after he disappeared in 1640 and were alive in 1660 as minors meaning they were under age 12 likely born about 1652.

This is a steep learning curve with answers yet to be found and put in place, but it is yielding in my view. DCR

5/18/2014 at 11:42 PM

Hello Cousin Dudly Higgins: It is clear from your ancestory that the Higgonson's we share are from Virginia and William Higgonson Rice ca 1760 was at first glance believed to be my Grandfather, but not. That's all been sorted out. Your kind words are a fresh sea-breeze to my ears I can tell you. The search is ongoing and I am making slow but steady progress of the kind needed to form a stratagey of where to look next. Thanks to Mark, I have another avenue to look for a disbarred Perrott most likely around 1600. Cheers D.C. Rice 1948 3times removed cousin.

5/19/2014 at 1:07 AM

Dale

One suggestion.

If you UN coupled the story of John Perratt II from the story of John Rice of Dedham I would have less skepticism.

My family was pretty good about knowing their lines back the Civil War era (a disruptive event that led to pioneering).

One line is (whisper) "blue blood New England.". Well, it turns out the blood is not Boston Brahmin, but certainly of the Puritan variety.

One line is "truculent stiff necked Scotch Irish.". And it turns out - oh, yeah, classic. And I have it back to straight from Walter Scott novels.

One line is "descended from John of Gaunt and there's a vetted pedigree to prove it.". Except - the person "may" have been not Virginia wealthy planter, but more Scotch Irish who knows what bump straight off the Ulster Plantation.

Entirely unmentioned is the fairly recent German ancestry.

And totally forgotten was the 1623 Virginia arriver.

So I'm suggesting that "both" the story you recollect and the genealogy (DNA test results and paper trail) "could" be true, just not in the ways and with the relationships you envision.

5/19/2014 at 1:10 AM

Mark: I put up the two lines of descent from Charles II to Myself and to James Perrott of Havorford west, MP and bennefactor to the town. James is a well known legislator who is a Royalist supporter of the KING. And though dead by 1637 his named brother John Perratt II 1565 is not listed in his will, indeed James leaves all the property to cousin Herbert Perrott. This is the evidence of the Disowned status of John Perratt 1565 who must have been erased from the family by 1600 for unknown actions.

http://www.geni.com/path/Charles+II+of+England+is+related+to+Sir+Ja...

http://www.geni.com/path/Charles+II+of+England+is+related+to+B+M+Ri...

5/19/2014 at 1:16 AM

Actually, I need to ammed the date of 1600 for being disowned to 1592 when Sir John Perrott 1528, was attained and lost Carew Castle...his heir was already named as James Perrott but only as a surviving brother of Thomas , Who was the legitimate son inteded to be the heir, but died before William, so James Perrott was the heir. ( John Perratt II 1565 is not part of the inheritence at all) but both boys are alleged sons of Sybile Jones. DCR

5/19/2014 at 2:20 AM

Ah, I've got him now. If you've not read it, here's Sir James Perrott's history of Parliament bio, which shows that there was a court case over his cousin Harold's inheritance.

http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1604-1629/member/pe...

Of course I can't find John Perrot 1565 as a brother. You will say that this is because he was disowned. I say that it was not so easy to disown and disinherit someone unless you did it in your will, so there would be a record. (Anyway, someone born in 1565 would most likely have been dead in 1636 when Sir James died). And I can't see why their alleged common parent would have disinherited one illegitimate son for a supposed sexual misdemeanour when he had two mistresses himself, with a child by each, and left all his property to one of them; he was obviously not a person who had severe views on sexual morality.

Mark

5/19/2014 at 3:14 AM

So far as I can tell, there were two very old Perrott families in Pembrokeshire - the Perrotts of Haroldston who include Sir James Perrott MP - and the Perrotts of Scotsborough who produced mayors of Tenby and claimed descent from some King of South Wales. Your John Perrott 1525 seems to belong to the second family; at any rate he had a brother Thomas "of Tenby". If the two families had any common origin it has been lost in time; at a quick glance I cannot even see any intermarriages between them, although they must have been quite close neighbours. The Herbert Perrott to whom Sir James left his property seems to have come from a third, quite distinct, family; although he claimed to be descended from the Perrotts of Haroldston, this claim has been thoroughly researched and shown to be false. The fact that it was accepted by Sir James suggests to me that he was desperate to leave his property "in the family", i.e. to a male bearing the surname Perrott rather than to his half-sister Letitia, and that he knew the Perrotts of Scotsborough were no relations. If he had a brother John - even if he disapproved of that brother - his dilemma would not have arisen.

Mark

5/19/2014 at 9:04 AM

Well, I concede that the John Perratt II of 1565 may have been dead before brother James. That's possible, and for certain we know that Thomas Perrott son of Sir John and Anne Cheney was the intended Heir, but he predeceased James, and William Perrott was a Church Organist and had no children, and also dead or he would have inherited. So John Is either DEAD already or Disowned by Father Sir John Perrott 1528 after his term at Greys Inn. The Period of 1582 to 1592 and the attainder would have seen him in conflict of some sort with the establishment: ie Queen Elizabeth's reign...and she had described him as a "faithless Kerr, & mongrel". His exploits were on the edge of acceptability and it seems to me that John was in the employ of Spain and turned on England....Im sorry I read that a long time ago and did not know how to put up the reference. DCR

5/19/2014 at 12:38 PM

Look, I'll do some work around Sir James Perrott, because I've never seen a family with so many tall stories in a couple of generations. His sister (on Geni) seems to me probably fictional. I'd count his father's alleged bastardy by Henry VIII as 99.99% fictional, because I can't see any reason why the old goat should not have acknowledged him (Mary Boleyn may have had a son by him, but he had a good reason for not acknowledging him because he was courting or married to Anne Boleyn). Sir James's half-brother Thomas seems to have attracted a daughter Dorothy (I think not on Geni) who is almost certainly fictional. Sir James himself seems to have fallen for a claim by someone probably unrelated to him, or only very distantly and unprovably related, to be some sort of cousin, and left all his property to him. Remind me to "prove" that I am first cousin to Bill Gates. If you look at Wikipedia ("Perrott baronets") , someone seems to have recently promoted Sir James to 1st Marquess of - I think - Narberth (A Marquess is very grand, one step down from a Duke). It is doubtful whether one of the Perrott baronetcies was ever actually created; the "second Baronet" may either have persuaded the King that he had forgotten the creation, or bribed someone. Etc, etc. It all seems very Welsh to me, look you.

If John Perrott the Quaker is important to you, I would guess that he was from yet another Perrott family which was established in Oxfordshire (with branches in Buckinghamshire). Allegedly they are connected with one of the Pembrokeshire Perrott families, but no-one knows how, and probably the connection is simply one of them trying to show to heralds that they were not "base-born" and therefore qualified to a coat of arms. There is at least a fifth Perrot family, which so far I have been unable to locate geographically, which also claimed a connection. But Oxfordshire/Buckinghamshire fits far better for an early Quaker than Pembrokeshire, given George Foxe's quite detailed itineraries and the known early Quaker Meeting-Houses. (For example, I've been at Quaker meetings in Burford, Oxfordshire, which dates from his lifetime). If you jaunted off to Rome to convert the Pope, and then to Jamaica etc, you needed some money to do it; much more in relative terms than now.

What do I conclude from this? Let us suppose that your father's Testimony had been passed down with 100% accuracy for two or three generations (which I think is very unlikely). What is provable (in some cases) or almost certain (in others) is that a lot of lies attracted themself to the family tree,either during some of their lifetimes (like Sir James's acceptance of Herbert's cousinship), shortly thereafter (like John's alleged bastard sonship of Henry VIII) and they seem to be multiplying even now.

The attainder of Sir John Perrott did not prevent Sir James Perrott getting back his estates (or most of them); a lot of attainders were reversed. Being described by Elizabeth I as "a faithless cur, and mongrel" did not mean that you could not be forgiven, or at least claw your way back to respectability. Again, a lot of people did.

Mark

5/19/2014 at 1:22 PM

http://www.geni.com/path/Henry+VIII+King+of+England+is+related+to+S...

The association of the deeper ancestors is quite close until we see a name I know knowthing about: Isabel Mautbury, sister to the mother of Sir Ralph deNevil. I will try to understand how and if she does connect to my ancestors. If there is tom foolery it bound to show up in the mid-range don't you think?
This link simply shows that James Perrott has connections to the same line of folks which I took to mean the lines were indeed connected by the DNA referenced as Phillips/ Perrott 1/2 brother to 1/2 sister. Im going on what I see not because I have any grasp of their Validity. Certainly I don't presume that, Im just looking for the trail that someone seemed to follow back in the 1700's.
http://www.geni.com/path/Sir+James+Perrott+MP+is+related+to+Samuel+...

http://www.geni.com/path/Sir+Rhys+ap+Thomas+K+G+of+Dynevor+is+relat...

The trail seems to have all the right pedigrees in the right places and times. Lettice ap Rice was certainly named as the wife of Sampson Lort, and the Family is ap Rice is in very close proximity to Carew Castle and Havorford West. So I do appreciate the speial attention you are giving this Mark. DCR 1948

5/19/2014 at 1:23 PM

sorry for the mispell: Nothing not nowthing about.

5/19/2014 at 2:06 PM

Lady Felice Drury

She certainly connects to the Sir Rhys ap Thomas line, and fairly clear to linkage to my immediate ancestors of the Earle and Calthorpes. The implication is that the disowned John Perratt II and that's the correct spelling, not Perrott comes from the area of the Perratt River. DCR

5/19/2014 at 6:10 PM

The Bloodline affiliation of My Presumed 7th great grandfather, John Perratt II 1565 is that he would share my same great grandfather as he indeed does. See William FitzAlan Lord of Oswstry, High Sheriff. His contemporary in that same cousin line is Anne Butts. These are the secondary proofs of whom my 7th great grandfather is and points to the father of John Rice of Dedham. If we did not share these same links then Perratt II would not be the father of John Rice 1630.
p://www.geni.com/path/Sir+James+Perrott+MP+is+related+to+Anne+Butts?fro...

http://www.geni.com/path/Sir+James+Perrott+MP+is+related+to+William...

http://www.geni.com/path/William+FitzAlan+Lord+of+Oswestry+High+She...

5/20/2014 at 12:55 AM

http://www.geni.com/path/Edward+de+Vere+17th+Earl+of+Oxford+is+rela...

My father's testimony included a story about Elizabeth I and a child placed with someone, and the name Cecil. I did not know of the story except as the Tudor Rose Theory and discounted it in my search. We all know that there are no children of QE I and I have never brought it up except to say I disounted it. Back in September when Justin first rejoined the conversation from his 4 month hiatus last year. This is news to me and it's only GENI indicating that this is a possible connection right? DCR

5/20/2014 at 1:03 AM

http://www.geni.com/path/Dale+C+Rice+is+related+to+Henry+de+Vere+18... This seems to be a closer relatedness link. DCR

5/20/2014 at 1:35 AM

http://www.geni.com/path/Catherine+Carey+Chief+Lady+of+the+Bedchamb...

The deVere link and Catherine Carey linkage looks to be more likely if any of it is likely. DCR

5/20/2014 at 3:49 AM

Just getting started. It's going to take some time, not because it is difficult but because there are so many links to merge. But what do we learn immediately if you now look at the About Section for

Sir John Perrot ?

A. There is a whole volume of his letters and other manuscripts in the British Library. If he disinherited a son called John there should be a reference somewhere.

B. So far from "son" John having to go abroad because the family was in the Queen's disfavour, she restored Sir John's son Sir Thomas in blood within six months of Sir John's death, so he was able to inherit Haraldston, and granted Carew Castle to his widow. So they were back in high favour, and (between them) got back all Sir John's forfeited lands.

C. The tall stories about the Perrott genealogy started in about 1650 and have been described as "the product of a disordered mind". (This was already in the about section). There weren't any genuine male representatives of the Perrotts of Haraldston to correct them; the Herbert Perrott who conned Sir James into bequeathing Haroldston to him was unlikely to want to encourage exact genealogical research. He was damned lucky to win his lawsuit, if you ask me. (Incidentally he was also an MP after the Restoration, so there is a history of parliament bio of him too)

I've found one only slightly indirect link to the other Perrott family in Pembrokeshire, so I can get round to them in due course. Meanwhile perhaps Dale can be patient and spend his energy on more productive areas of research.

Mark

5/20/2014 at 8:16 AM

Well Mark, the work of a deranged mind seems to fit Mr. John Perrott the "Pope converter". I have no problem letting go of the deranged, and have no cause to hone except for the affiliations which keep showing up here on GENI are becoming turyly vexing....I would like to pursue them, but all seems a waste of time...none of it true then? Thanks for your help, I do know we have one Perrott from the area near the Paratt River who arrived in Va. 1623. Will have to let it ride I suppose. Thanks to extra good sleuthing from Lloyd3 I have another Grandfather to fit into the expanding web of links from the Butts line. DCR

5/20/2014 at 8:17 AM

sorry for the typo on truly above.

5/20/2014 at 2:03 PM

Dale

I've found all this quite interesting. I think the "disordered mind" belonged to a Welsh bard, whose traditions of praise poetry would mean that emphasis on showing a glorious heritage would take a very distinct primacy over sheer truth. Then there was the issue of property - so we get more lies from Herbert Perrott MP to grab it (although, who knows, he may have believed them? One would have to look at the family tree he showed to the court in order to judge). Then, again, an extinct family (in the male line) invites deliberate fabrications or accidental mismerges because there is no-one around who has the family records.

I'll do the other Pembrokeshire Perrott family (when I've finished cleaning up this one a bit) just in case it may have the John Perrott you are looking for in Virginia. It might. If it doesn't, then by process of exclusion you have fewer places to look. Someone who had a river named after him and a large land grant certainly looks as if he came from gentry somewhere.

By the way, if all this seems to explode a bit of your father's Testimony (and a crucial bit, as far as you were concerned) neither his memory nor his credulity can be faulted. If a lie has been around, and repeated, for 300 years, anyone can be forgiven for believing it.

Mark

5/20/2014 at 2:12 PM

Dale,

Good God! I've just found your Sampson Lort as well! Even if these people end up not being your ancestors, do put in copy-and-pasted material about their activities in their "about sections", if you have the time. It would be a pity to let all your research go to waste, even if it has led you in the wrong direction.

Well (sigh) it looks as if I will be spending a few more days on this.

Mark

5/20/2014 at 3:11 PM

Dale.

OK, now we are into the Scotsborough family:

John Perrot, of Scotborough

(just as a brief introduction: further tidying to do above. Regrets, but I don't see any obvious candidate for the Virginia immigrant. But you never know).

When I tidy up the Haroldston family a bit more, we can come back to the Scotsborough Perrotts. By the way, I am intrigued by the name Haroldston. King Harold II of England (the guy who unfortunately lost to William the Conqueror in 1066) did some very successful campaigning in South Wales before he became King. Pembrokeshire was very early conquered by the Normans (even when intervening counties remained firmly Welsh for a century or two) and was known as "Little England". Can it be that Haroldston (= "Harold's farm" in Old English) was named after King Harold II? It's most certainly not a Welsh name in any of its elements, and if it was founded by a Norman it would not be "ton" but "ville" or something. There's something interesting to research.

Mark

5/20/2014 at 5:46 PM

http://www.geni.com/path/Letitice+ap+Rice+is+related+to+B+M+Rice?fr...

Sampson Lort married Olive Phillips and Letice ap Rice sister to Perrott ap Rice 198-1600, and was the linkage to the" Victualing'or resupply of the Cromwell Republican Army. Perrott and his father Thomas were royalist supporters, and played the role of "Shoni Bob Ochre" in Wales."

You may not be aware that Perrott ap Rice and the person we think is John Perratt 1565 absconded with a shipload of goods in the SWALLOW, used in the Shipping busisness The Lort brothers conducted as well respected suppliers to the Royal Navy, hense the connection puts Sir John Perrott's grandaughter,Olive Phillips Lort in the forefront of my family histoy, that's Why I put him up instead of John Phillips, which is not yet proved. Lort-Phillips- ap Rice is proved. Ann Phillips is John Phillips mother and daughter of Sir John 1528 .DCR

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