Harald Tveit Alvestrand it is a basic "rule" in genealogy that we should not add wishful or unproven pesons into our databases, that we should leave the teories out of the factbased part of our genealogical databases. These types of persons and teories should, if you want to mention them, be mentioned in the biographies or researchbook or whatever these tabs are called in you software, they should never be linked since they then will be seen upon as facts no matter what comments you add to them (which may or may not be read by the one copying your information), this is also valid if you publish an article or write books with genealogical information.
When sources disagree, it's common in genealogy to stop the lines there in the factbased parts, like out trees and the links between people, and then write about the teories somewhere else in the persons file.
Remi Trygve Pedersen you and I seem to disagree on what the boundary should be between "theory that should not be listed" and "proven enough to be listed".
Can we just agree that we disagree on how to formulate the boundary, and focus on whether you want to cut the link in the specific case?
In this profile, I think that Hardeknut should be listed as the father of Gorm. Ælfiglu should be cut.
I have been in contact with Aarhus universitet. This is their position on Hardeknud. They think he is a real person and Gorms father.
Where the diskussion starts is who Hardeknut is.
They consider him the founder of what the call the Jelling dynasty.
HARDEKNUD SVENDSEN
Knud 1. Hardegon, Hardeknud Svendsen, død før 934, dansk konge, søn af Svend fra Nortmannia (Normandiet?), far til Gorm den Gamle. Mellem 909 og 916 vendte Hardegon hjem fra Normandiet eller, mindre sandsynligt, fra Norge og fordrev Sigtryg, den sidste konge af Olafdynastiet. Han må derfor anses for Jellingdynastiets grundlægger.
I hope this can solve the matter. If further questions ask and I will see if I can answer them. Otherwise I think we can give Gorm the father Knud.
The diskussion of who Hardeknut is then we should as Harald surgested move over into a seperate diskussion and let Gorm rest in peace for some time.???
Hey so the Jelling link i provided eralyer in the discussion might be a source then.
http://www.fortidensjelling.dk/sagnkonge32.htm
Per Skulason denne var interessant! Kjenner du til hva "Store Saga om Olav Tryggvason" er for noe? Dette er ikke en del av Snorres saga om Olav Tryggvason.....
Hej Harald
Nej, jeg er også først stødt på vendingen "Store Saga om Olav Tryggvason", men jeg vil næsten tro at det drejer sig om Kongesagaerne.
Jeg tror der er tale om Gunnlaug Leifsson der forfattet en stor Latinsk afhandling om Olav Tryggvason.
Gunnlaug var Munk i et bendiktiner kloster Þingeyrar på Island,
Mvh
Per
Mvh
Per
Når vi nu taler om Tryggvason så skal der da også underholdes lidt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wuRxSVkbqk
Her en måde at fortælle på der gør at historier kan leve længe, de behøves derfor ikke nødvendigvis at være nedskrevne, vi har bare glemt traditionerne gennem tiderne, fortælle måden er udbredt blandt stammefolk, indianer og andre små kulturer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AthwWUYHHHk
og
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bts_v9mqv3g
Mvh
Per
Jeg tror referansen til "den store saga" er her:
http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Den_st%C3%B8rre_saga_om_Olav_Tryggvason
Lenkene til nett-utgaver av sagaene virker dessverre ikke.
Denne hadde jeg faktisk ikke hørt om før i dag!
Ja, det er åbenbart en sammenskrivning af flere, såvidt jeg har forstået det har Gunnlaug sammenskrevet en del af sagerne på latin, men dokumentet findes kun i udrag da store del er gået tabt, derefter er der en af de øvrige Islændinge der har forsat den, Jeg mener de påbegyndte de latinske værker omkring 1190-95. Materialet må næsten have været tilstede da Snorri skrev Heimskringla flot ord Heimskringla (Himmel skive).
Du har helt ret er meget interessant. Jeg ved ikke som mage om 200-300 år efter begivenhederne er sent for saga nedskrivningerne. Mange afskriver dem som historier og stiller spøgsmål ved troværdigheden.
Taler vi om biblen der ligeledes er nedskrevet 300-400 år efter begivenhederne er der ingen der er i tvivl om rigtigheden af det nedskrevne, syntes det er lidt pudsigt :-)
Mvh
Per
@Harald Tveit
Kan denn bruges. http://heimskringla.no/wiki/Den_store_saga_om_Olaf_Tryggves%C3%B8n_...
Mvh
Per
Guys I hate to sound like a scoulding mother here or and uptight teacher here. Sorry if I spoil the fun.
Could we make a dission on Gorm and his father please.
And yes the link you provided earlier Per is pretty similar to what the official posion on Gorm and Hardeknut is.
Which is that Gorm is son of a Hardeknut.
I know I know. I have just grown a little tired of debating Gorm. I do however like the more pleasent tone we now have.
I just dont think we cant solve the matter more accurate than we allready have.
The liniage backwards unfortunately change from sorce to sorce.
The one thing they do agree on is that Gorm is son of Hardeknut.
It is very frustrating.
Med venlig hilsen
Anette
If most of the somewhat trusted sources all say that Hardeknut is the father of Gorm, then that is what has to be written on Geni to, hopefully with good source citations, and if a few other sources say something else, but they are less trustworthy, then their information can be mentioned in his biography.
Her er mange kilder angivet - iblandt kilderne er York som fødested nævnt:
http://kongehuset.dk/monarkiet/stamtraeer/gorm/
http://www.vikingmagasin.dk/vikinglex/gormdengamle.htm
Gorm the Old, King of the Danes
Gorm the Old (Danish: Gorm den Gamle, Old Norse: Gormr gamli) was King of Denmark in the mid-900s. He was the husband of Thyra (to whom he raised the older of the two Jelling stones) and the father of King Harald Bluetooth.
The son of Danish king Harthacnut, Gorm is one of the most misinterpreted figures ever in Danish history. Often maligned as a cruel old dotard and a staunch heathen, Gorm was born in the late 800s, and died in 958 according to dendrochronological studies of the wood in his burial chamber.
His ancestry descends from Danes who ruled East Anglia, one of whom was named Guthrum, a form of the name Gorm. His father came to Denmark around 916 or 917 and deposed the young king Sigtrygg Gnupasson, and when Harthaknut died, Gorm ascended to the throne. Claims that he took it by force, or that he only ruled part of the peninsula of Jutland are almost certainly erroneous… Gorm's great-great-grandson king Sweyn Estridsson referred to both Gorm and his father as kings of (all of) Denmark, not just parts of the country.
Gorm was neither old nor unwise; when correctly interpreted, early sources point to him as being open-minded and pragmatic as far as Denmark's relationship with the Christian neighbors to the south was concerned, but earlier historians often confused him with his father who supposedly withstood the coming of Christianity for as long as he lived. However, the small runestone in Jelling can be interpreted as a claim that Gorm defended Denmark from Christianity, as he is somewhat vaguely defined as the protector of Denmark.
His skeleton is believed to have been found at the site of the first Christian church of Jelling. During the reign of Gorm, most Danes still worshipped the Norse gods, but during the reign of Gorm's son Harold Bluetooth, Denmark officially converted to Christianity. Harold supposedly moved the skeleton of his father from its original resting place into the church, but left the hill where Gorm had originally been interred as a memorial.
--------------------
Denmark: The Danish royal family is the longest unbroken history of rule in Europe.
The first royal house of Denmark was established in the 10th century by a Viking king called Gorm the Old. He and his son, Harald I (Harald Bluetooth), unified Denmark; their successors also came to rule England, Norway, and part of Sweden. This empire fell apart after the death of King Canute in 1035, but descendants of Gorm "the Old" continued to reign in Denmark.
kilde: http://www.ancientwanderings.com/History/History_Royal_Houses.cfm
--------------------
Född 840 i York, England, Död 940 i Danmark.
Gorm den gamle reste en runsten till minne av sin hustru Tyra se foto.
Texten på runstenen säger
Gorm konge
gjorde kumler disse
efter Thyra sin kone
danmarks bod
Fotot visar Gorms grav
--------------------
Gorm var Denmark's første konge. Han samlet riket på samme måte som Harald Hårfagre samlet Norge. Han ligger sammen med Tyra i en mektig gravhaug ved kongsgården Jællinge.
Kildene gir nesten ingen pålitelige opplysninger om Gorm. Selv navnet til hans far er ukjent, men overleveringen tyder på at det var Hardeknud. Man vet ikke når og på hvilken måte Gorm overtok riket eller når han giftet seg med sin berømte dronning Tyre Danmarksbod. Tradisjonen har konsentrert seg om henne, og Gorm trekkes frem kun i forhold til henne.
--------------------
Gorm the Old
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Gorm the Old (Danish: Gorm den Gamle, Old Norse: Gormr gamli) was King of Denmark in the mid-900s. He was the husband of Thyra (to whom he raised the older of the two Jelling stones) and the father of King Harald Bluetooth.
The son of Danish king Harthacnut, Gorm is one of the most misinterpreted figures ever in Danish history. Often maligned as a cruel old dotard and a staunch heathen,[citation needed] Gorm was born in the late 800s, and died in 958 according to dendrochronological studies of the wood in his burial chamber.[citation needed]
His ancestry descends from Danes who ruled East Anglia, one of whom was named Guthrum, a form of the name Gorm. His father came to Denmark around 916 or 917 and deposed the young king Sigtrygg Gnupasson, and when Harthaknut died, Gorm ascended to the throne. Claims that he took it by force, or that he only ruled part of the peninsula of Jutland are almost certainly erroneous…[citation needed] Gorm's great-great-grandson king Sweyn Estridsson referred to both Gorm and his father as kings of (all of) Denmark, not just parts of the country.
Gorm was neither old nor unwise; when correctly interpreted, early sources point to him as being open-minded and pragmatic[citation needed] as far as Denmark's relationship with the Christian neighbors to the south was concerned, but earlier historians often confused him with his father who supposedly withstood the coming of Christianity for as long as he lived. However, the small runestone in Jelling can be interpreted as a claim that Gorm defended Denmark from Christianity, as he is somewhat vaguely defined as the protector of Denmark.
His skeleton is believed to have been found at the site of the first Christian church of Jelling. During the reign of Gorm, most Danes still worshipped the Norse gods, but during the reign of Gorm's son Harold Bluetooth, Denmark officially converted to Christianity. Harold supposedly moved the skeleton of his father from its original resting place into the church, but left the hill where Gorm had originally been interred as a memorial.
Gorm, the Old, so called from the length of his reign. He married thebeautiful Thyra Dannebod (Ornament of Denmark), daughter of HaroldKlak. They had twin sons, Knud and Harold, rivals in glory. Knud wasthe favorite of his father, and had been absent sometime, and the Kingfearing his death had vowed to kill the one that brought the news ofhis death. Finally the notice of his death was given and the Queen,not risking to tell it to the King, made all the courtiers observe anunusual silence at the table and had the apartment covered with black.Guessing the reason, Gorm cried out: 'Surely Knud, my dear son, isdead as all Denmark is mourning.' 'Thou sayest so, not I.' answeredthe Queen; upon which the King sickened with grief and died in a goodold age, in 941.
He was the King of Denmark.
--------------------
Født Ca. 895
Køn Mand
Død 958
Begravet Jelling, Vejle
Person-ID I9399 Skeel, Holbek, Santasilia and Muckadell
Sidst ændret 04 Apr. 2008
Far Hardeknud Konge af Danmark, f. 880
Mor Ne
Familie-ID F1283 Gruppeskema
Familie Thyra Dannebod, d. 935
Børn 1. Knud Danaast, d. 940
> 2. Harald I Blaatand Konge af Danmark, f. Ca. 910, d. Mellem 01 Nov. 986 og 987, Jomsborg
Familie-ID F4630 Gruppeskema
Billeder Gorm den Gamle
Wikipedia
Notater Gorm den Gamle er historisk opgjort til den første danske konge. Der var dog konger før ham, de historiske kilder herom er dog meget spartanske. Gorm den Gamle nævnes første gang som dansk konge 936 og han døde 958 eller 959. Han var af den danske skjoldungeæt, men hans far Hardeknud skal være kommet til Danmark fra Norge, og han og efter ham Gorm den Gamle synes at have kæmpet sig frem for at fravriste en svensk erobreræt det danske land.
Fra Wikipedia, den frie encyklopedi
Gå til: navigasjon, søk
Gorms Jellingstein, forsiden.
Gorms Jellingstein, baksiden.Gorm den gamle var konge av Danmark på midten av 900-tallet. Hans hustru var Tyra Danebod som han senere reiste den eldste av de to runesteinene på Jelling til minne om. Gorm var sønn av den danske kongen Hardeknut og var selv far til Harald Blåtann, som etterfulgte ham som konge. Gorms senere slektning, Svein Estridsson, refererte til både Gorm og hans far som «konger av Danmark», men det er vanskelig å presisere Danmarks geografiske omfang under Gorm.
Moderne historikere mener at Gorm styrte fra Jelling og at han neppe var konge over hele Danmark, snarere over Jylland og Sønderjylland. Han regnes likevel ofte som den første konge i den danske kongerekken. Det skyldes at han er den første konge som nevnes i samtidige, danske kilder, det vil si de to runesteinene på Jelling. Teksten på den lille Jellingsteinen sier:
kurmr kunukr karthi kubl thusi aft thurui kunu sina tanmakar but
Gorm konge gjorde kumler disse etter Tyra kone sin Danmarks bod
Gorm omtales også på den store Jellingsteinen hvor det står:
Haraltr kunukr bath kaurua kubl thausi aft kurm fathur sin auk aft thaurui muthur sina sa haraltr ias sar uan tanmaurk ala auk nuruiak auk tani karthi kristna
Harald konge bød gjøre kumler disse etter Gorm far sin og etter Tyra mor sin, den Harald som seg vant Danmark alle og Norge og danene gjorde kristne
Ut fra disse tekstene kan det sluttes at Gorm den gamle var gift med Tyra og far til Harald Blåtann. At Gorm underla seg Norge er en overdrivelse. I beste fall var det noen småkonger i Viken som betalte skatt til ham, danskekongen.
Det antas at Gorm ved sin død ble begravd i gravkammeret i den nordlige gravhaugen i Jelling, og at han senere ble flyttet til en grav i kirken. Trestokker fra gravkammeret er datert dendrokronologisk. Det viste seg at treet var hogd ned sent på året 958. Gorm må altså ha vært død dette året. Gorms skjelett er funnet ved en utgravning i kirken, og en undersøkelse av det har vist at han ved sin død var mellom 35 og 50 år gammel.
Gorm den Gamle omtales av Snorre Sturlasson og Adam av Bremen. Snorre kaller ham for «Gorm Hardeknutsson». Det er derfor man har gått utifra at Gorm var sønn av Hardeknut. Gorms forfedre kan ha sin opprinnelse hos danske herskere i East Anglia i England. En av disse het «Guthrum», som er en form av navnet Gorm. Hans far kom til Danmark rundt 916 eller 917 og avsatte den unge kongen Sigtrygg Gnupasson. Da Hardeknut selv døde, arvet Gorm kongetronen. Antagelsen at han tok den med makt er sannsynligvis ikke riktig.
Gorm er en av de mest misforståtte figurer i dansk historie. Han ble ofte svertet som en grusom og senil gamling og i tillegg en innbitt hedning. I virkeligheten var han verken gammel eller uklok. De tidligste kildene peker i steden på en pragmatisk og framsynt konge i forhold til Danmarks kristne naboer i syd.
Tidligere historikere har ofte blandet sammen Gorm med hans far Hardeknut. Sistnevnte sto antagelig imot misjonering av kristendommen hele sitt liv. Dog kan den lille runesteinen på Jelling tolkes som om Gorm forsvarte Danmark mot kristendommen ettersom han upresist defineres som «Danmarks beskytter». I den grad folk flest ble kristne skjedde det langsomt og møysommelig. I Gorms tid var det store flertallet hedninger, men under Harald Blåtann ble landet offisielt kristent. I løpet av kanskje de neste to generasjonene ble kristendommen også en naturlig del av hele befolkningens tro og tankesett.
Kilder [S19] Leo, Nachkommen Gorms des Alten, 1978 , Brenner, S. Otto, Reference: 1.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorm_the_Old
--------------------
Gorm Hardeknudsson "The Old" of Denmark - was born about 0840, lived in Denmark and died about 0940 in Jellinge, Vejle, Denmark . He was the son of Harde-Knud Sigfurdsson.
Gorm married Queen Thyre of Jutland. Queen Thyre was born about 0884 in Jutland, Vejle, Denmark. She was the daughter of Harold Hemmingsson of Jutland. She died about 0935 in Jutland, Vejle, Denmark .
Queen Thyre - Queen of Denmark.
Children:
i. King Harald Gormsson "Blaatand (Bluetooth)" of Denmark I was born about 0910 and died on 1 Nov 0987
--------------------
0916 Konge i Danmark Undertvang sig Jylland omkring 880
Dansk konge med sæde i Jelling; havde også tilnavnet "Løge", d.v.s. "den
dvaske". Han var gift med Thyra og rejste sten over hende i Jelling, hvor
de begge begravedes i kæmpehøje.
Sønnen Harald Blåtend rejste dem den store Jelling-sten.
Til trods for al usikkerhed er Gorm den første danske konge efter 873, som er
mere end et navn for os. Runestenene i Jelling bekræfter at Harald var hans
søn og efterfølger og at Gorms hustru, Haralds mor, hed Tyre. Disse indskrift-
er og andre mindesmærker på stedet viser at Jelling var et vigtigt centrum for
begge kongers virke.
Gorm blev først begravet i den store nordlige Jellinghøj, men efter Haralds
omvendelse blev liget flyttet og gravlagt under gulvet midt i den kirke, som
Harald byggede i nærheden. Det meste af Gorms skelet er nylig blevet fundet,
og det viser at han var 40 - 50 år gammel ved sin død. Han var ca. 172 cm. høj
og ikke særlig kraftigt bygget. Efter undersøgelse af knogleresterne erklæres
det, at han i lighed med de fleste midaldrende danskere led af osteoarthritis
i den nederste del af rygsøjlen. Der er fundet 72 knoglestumper og 17 tænder.
Man ved ikke præcis hvor langt Gorms kongerige strakte sig, men man kan med
rimelighed regne med at han beherskede Hedeby og Danevirke, ligesom han kan
have haft magten over hele Jylland og naboøerne.
Om Gorms herkomst hersker der en del tvivl. Datidens krønikeskrivere anfører
divergerende oplysninger; Det mest sandsynlige er, at Gorms far er Hardeknud;
Adam af Bremen skriver "... da ærkebiskop Unni besøgte danerne i 936 var
Hardeknuds søn Gorm konge".
Fødsels- og dødsår er arkæologiske vurderinger. Træet til hans gravkammer er
fældet 958/959 hvorfor Gorm den Gamle menes at være død på det tidspunkt.
Kilde: Gyldendal og Politikens Danmarkshistorie III, side 219-221.
Registrators bemærkninger og forbehold - se under Thyra Danebod.
Det formodes at Gorm senere er flyttet ind i et gravkammer i den af
Harald opførte stavkirke. Gravkammeret er fundet i den nuværende kirke.
Til trods for al usikkerhed er Gorm den første danske konge efter 873, som er
mere end et navn for os. Runestenene i Jelling bekræfter at Harald var hans
søn og efterfølger og at Gorms hustru, Haralds mor, hed Tyre. Disse indskrif-
ter og andre mindesmærker på stedes viser at Jelling var et vigtigt centrum
for begge kongers virke.
Gorm blev først begravet i den store nordlige Jellinghøj, men efter Haralds
omvendelse blev liget flyttet og gravlagt under gulvet midt i den kirke, som
Harald byggede i nærheden. Det meste af Gorms skelet er nylig blevet fundet,
og det viser at han var 40 - 50 år gammel ved sin død. Han var ca. 172 cm. høj
og ikke særlig kraftigt bygget. Efter undersøgelse af knogleresterne erklæres
det, at han i lighed med de fleste midaldrende danskere led af osteoarthritis
i den nederste del af rygsøjlen. Der er fundet 72 knoglestumper og 17 tænder.
Man ved ikke præcis hvor langt Gorms kongerige strakte sig, men man kan med
rimelighed regne med at han beherskede Hedeby og Danevirke, ligesom han kan
have haft magten over hele Jylland og naboøerne.
Om Gorms herkomst hersker der en del tvivl. Datidens krønikeskrivere anfører
divergerende oplysninger; Det mest sandsynlige er, at Gorms far er Hardeknud;
Adam af Bremen skriver "... da ærkebiskop Unni besøgte danerne i 936 var
Hardeknuds søn Gorm konge".
Kilde: Gyldendal og Politikens Danmarkshistorie III, side 219-221.
Gorm er antageligt et kælenavn for Guttorm.
Tilnavnet 'den gamle' har Gorm måske haft i levende live, for hans
datter Gunhild opkalder sine to sønner Gorm og Gamle (ifølge hvem?).
Han bliver konge af Danmark efter sin far Hardeknud, dvs engang efter 934.
Ifølge Adam af Bremen
var biskop Unni (- 936) på missionsrejse til Sverige i 935,
og havde undervejs et møde med kong Gorm.
Den beretning er dog for usikker, og kan ikke bruges til at tidsfæste
Gorms regeringstid.
(Kilde: Bent Ousager i Skalk 1957.2)
Ifølge Dudo's Normandi-krønike fra ca 1000, var der i årene op mod 842
løbende krig mellem Danmark og Sachsen, og Sachsens hertug Herman
Billung var en overgang fange i Danmark og lærde her nordisk. Desværre
ved vi ikke om det var Gnupa, Hardeknud, Gorm eller Harald der fangede ham.
Også i Widukinds sachser-krønike er kampene omtalt.
I 948 er der 3 (udenlandske) biskopper i Danmark,
ifølge Adam på foranledning af kejser Otto den Store (- 973),
så tyskerne må have vundet i den sidste ende.
Danmark lå også i krig med Norge i denne tid. Erik Blodøkses sønner
ville med dansk hjælp have kongemagten fra Håkon Adelstensfostre, men
han slog dem og danskerne til lands og til vands, og krævede derefter
skat af Danmark. Dette sker omkring 947.
(Kilde: Bent Ousager i Skalk 1957.2)
Gorm er antageligt gravlagt i Jellings Nordhøj, og begravelsen er
årringsdateret til 958.
Graven er siden forstyrret, antageligt er Gorm gravet op af kristne
efterkommere, og rimeligvis er det Gorms ben, der er fundet i
en grav under Jelling kirkes gulv, men derom strides de lærde endnu.
(Kilde: Knud J Krogh: Gåden om kong Gorms grav. 1993)
(Kilde: Harald Andersen i Skalk 1995.1)
(Kilde: Erik Kroman: Det danske Rige i den ældre Vikingetid. 1976. s 93-123)
(Kilde: Salmonsens Konversations Leksikon, 2' udg. 1915-1930)
Fra Steen Thomsens database dec 1997
http://awt.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=:2248100&...
--------------------
Kung av Danmark 934-940
--------------------
King of Denmark, (Jutland) and East Anglia, England
--------------------
http://www.danmarkskonger.dk/konge1.htm
--------------------
From Wikipedia - Gorm the Old was the King of Denmark in the mid 900s.
The son of Danish King Harthacnut, Gorm is one of the most misinterpreted figures in Danish history. He was probably born around 910 - 915, and died in late 958, according to the studies of wood in his burial chamber.
His father Harthacnut came to Denmark around 916 or 917, and deposed the young king Sigtrygg Gnupasson. When King Harthacnut died, Gorm ascended to the throne. Claims that he took it by force, or only ruled part of the peninsula of Juteland were not true.
King Gorm was neither old nor unwise. Early sources point to him as being open-minded as far as Denmark's relationship with the Christian neighbors to the south. However, earlier historians often confused him with his father who supposedly withstood the coming of Christianity for as long as he lived.
During the reign of King Gorm, most Danes still worshipped Norse gods. But during the reign of Gorm's son Harold Bluetooth, Denmark officially converted to Christianity.
--------------------
ABT 0840 - 0959
OCCUPATION: Konge av Danmark 916-951
BIRTH: ABT 0840
DEATH: 0959
Family 1 : Tyre DANMARKSBOD
+Harald I BLÅTANN
+Knud GORMSSON
Kilde: nermo.org
--------------------------------------
Han samlet riket på samme måte som Harald Hårfagre samlet Norge. Han ligger sammen med Tyra i en mektig gravhaug ved kongsgården Jællinge.
Kildene gir nesten ingen pålitelige opplysninger om Gorm. Selv navnet til hans far er ukjent, men overleveringen tyder på at det var Hardeknud. Man vet ikke når og på hvilken måte Gorm overtok riket eller når han giftet seg med sin berømte dronning Tyre Danmarksbod. Tradisjonen har konsentrert seg om henne, og Gorm trekkes frem kun i forhold til henne.
--------------------
Gorm den gamle
Fra Wikipedia, den frie encyklopedi
Gorm den gamle var konge av Danmark på midten av 900-tallet. Hans hustru var Tyra Danebod som han senere reiste den eldste av de to runesteinene på Jelling til minne om. Gorm var sønn av den danske kongen Hardeknut og var selv far til Harald Blåtann, som etterfulgte ham som konge. Gorms senere slektning, Svein Estridsson, refererte til både Gorm og hans far som «konger av Danmark», men det er vanskelig å presisere Danmarks geografiske omfang under Gorm.
Moderne historikere mener at Gorm styrte fra Jelling og at han neppe var konge over hele Danmark, snarere over Jylland og Sønderjylland. Han regnes likevel ofte som den første konge i den danske kongerekken. Det skyldes at han er den første konge som nevnes i samtidige, danske kilder, det vil si de to runesteinene på Jelling. Teksten på den lille Jellingsteinen sier:
kurmr kunukr karthi kubl thusi aft thurui kunu sina tanmakar but
Gorm konge gjorde kumler disse etter Tyra kone sin Danmarks bod
Gorm omtales også på den store Jellingsteinen hvor det står:
Haraltr kunukr bath kaurua kubl thausi aft kurm fathur sin auk aft thaurui muthur sina sa haraltr ias sar uan tanmaurk ala auk nuruiak auk tani karthi kristna
Harald konge bød gjøre kumler disse etter Gorm far sin og etter Tyra mor sin, den Harald som seg vant Danmark alle og Norge og danene gjorde kristne
Ut fra disse tekstene kan det sluttes at Gorm den gamle var gift med Tyra og far til Harald Blåtann. At Gorm underla seg Norge er en overdrivelse. I beste fall var det noen småkonger i Viken som betalte skatt til ham, danskekongen.
Det antas at Gorm ved sin død ble begravd i gravkammeret i den nordlige gravhaugen i Jelling, og at han senere ble flyttet til en grav i kirken. Trestokker fra gravkammeret er datert dendrokronologisk. Det viste seg at treet var hogd ned sent på året 958. Gorm må altså ha vært død dette året. Gorms skjelett er funnet ved en utgravning i kirken, og en undersøkelse av det har vist at han ved sin død var mellom 35 og 50 år gammel.
Gorm den Gamle omtales av Snorre Sturlasson og Adam av Bremen. Snorre kaller ham for «Gorm Hardeknutsson». Det er derfor man har gått utifra at Gorm var sønn av Hardeknut. Gorms forfedre kan ha sin opprinnelse hos danske herskere i East Anglia i England. En av disse het «Guthrum», som er en form av navnet Gorm. Hans far kom til Danmark rundt 916 eller 917 og avsatte den unge kongen Sigtrygg Gnupasson. Da Hardeknut selv døde, arvet Gorm kongetronen. Antagelsen at han tok den med makt er sannsynligvis ikke riktig.
Gorm er en av de mest misforståtte figurer i dansk historie. Han ble ofte svertet som en grusom og senil gamling og i tillegg en innbitt hedning. I virkeligheten var han verken gammel eller uklok. De tidligste kildene peker i steden på en pragmatisk og framsynt konge i forhold til Danmarks kristne naboer i syd.
Tidligere historikere har ofte blandet sammen Gorm med hans far Hardeknut. Sistnevnte sto antagelig imot misjonering av kristendommen hele sitt liv. Dog kan den lille runesteinen på Jelling tolkes som om Gorm forsvarte Danmark mot kristendommen ettersom han upresist defineres som «Danmarks beskytter». I den grad folk flest ble kristne skjedde det langsomt og møysommelig. I Gorms tid var det store flertallet hedninger, men under Harald Blåtann ble landet offisielt kristent. I løpet av kanskje de neste to generasjonene ble kristendommen også en naturlig del av hele befolkningens tro og tankesett.
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Gorm den Gamle
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For alternative betydninger, se Gorm den Gamle (flertydig). (artikler, som begynder med Gorm den Gamle)
Thyra Dannebod meddeler Kong Gorm den Gamle underretning om hans søn Knuds dødGorm den Gamle var en dansk konge, som regerede fra Jelling i midten af 900-tallet. Han har næppe været konge over hele Danmark, snarere over Jylland og Sønderjylland. Han regnes ofte for den første konge i kongerækken. Det skyldes, at han er den første konge, der nævnes i samtidige, danske kilder, nærmere betegnet de to runesten i Jelling.
Teksten på Den lille Jellingsten lyder:
kurmr kunukr karthi kubl thusi aft thurui kunu sina tanmakar but
eller på lidt mere nutidigt dansk:
Gorm konge gjorde kumler disse efter Thyra kone sin Danmarks bod
Gorm omtales også på Den store Jellingsten, hvor der står:
Haraltr kunukr bath kaurua kubl thausi aft kurm fathur sin auk aft thaurui muthur sina sa haraltr ias sar uan tanmaurk ala auk nuruiak auk tani karthi kristna
eller:
Harald konge bød gøre kumler disse efter Gorm fader sin og efter Thyra moder sin, den Harald som sig vandt Danmark al og Norge og danerne gjorde kristne
Ud fra disse tekster kan vi altså udlede, at Gorm den Gamle var gift med Thyra og far til Harald Blåtand. Det antages, at Gorm ved sin død blev begravet i gravkammeret i den nordlige gravhøj i Jelling, og senere blev overflyttet til en grav i kirken. Træ fra gravkammeret er dateret dendrokronologisk. Det viste sig, at det var fældet sent på året 958. Meget tyder altså på at Gorm er blevt begravet det år. Et skelet, der kan være Gorms, er fundet ved en udgravning i kirken, og en undersøgelse af det har vist, at han ved sin død var mellem 35 og 50 år gammel. Udover at være far til Harald Blåtand havde Gorm den Gamle to børn, Knud Dane-Ast, som blev dræbt under et vikingetogt, og Gunhild, født ca. 900 og ifølge overleveringen myrdet på Harald Blåtands foranledning.
Gorm den Gamle havde også tilnavnet "Løge", den dvaske, selv om han antages at have samlet sit rige ved at overvinde en række småkonger ved sydgrænsen.
Gorm den Gamle omtales af Snorri Sturluson og Adam af Bremen. Disse værker er dog skrevet mere end 100 år efter Gorms død. Derfor må oplysningerne i dem behandles med betydelig forsigtighed. Snorri Sturlason kalder ham Gorm Hardeknudsøn. Derfor antages det, at han var søn af Hardeknud.
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http://www.sundin.nu/gen/ancestors.html
neste på siden!
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Det danske rige eksisterede længe før Gorms tid. Ifølge de nordiske sagaer hed Gorm den Gamles far Hardeknud (Knud I. Hardegon). Her starter Jellingedynastiet.
Det er tydeligt at denne æt har måttet føre mange kampe før den besad magten i Danmark.
En konge ved navn Olaf var kommet fra Sverige og havde vundet en del af landet, måske kun det sydlige Jylland. Det gik i arv til hans søn Gnupa. På hans tid var sakserhertugen Henrik (Fuglefænger) blevet østfrankernes konge og i 934 kommer det til et slag ved Danmarks sydgrænse mellem Henrik og Gnupa. Henrik slog Gnupa og tvang ham til dåben. Snart efter gik Gnupas magt tilgrunde, idet Gorm den Gamle indtog hans rige.
Gorm den Gamle:
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Gorm den Gamle var en dansk konge, som regerede fra Jelling. Han har næppe været konge over hele Danmark, snarere over Jylland og Sønderjylland. Han regnes ofte for den første konge i kongerækken. Det skyldes, at han er den første konge, der nævnes i samtidige, danske kilder, nærmere betegnet de to runesten i Jelling.
Teksten på Den lille Jellingsten lyder:
kurmr kunukr karthi kubl thusi aft thurui kunu sina tanmakar but
eller på lidt mere nutidigt dansk:
Gorm konge gjorde kumler disse efter Thyra kone sin danmarks bod
Gorm omtales også på Den store Jellingsten, hvor der står:
Haraltr kunukr bath kaurua kubl thausi aft kurm fathur sin auk aft thaurui muthur sina sa haraltr ias sar uan tanmaurk ala auk nuruiak auk tani karthi kristna
eller:
Harald konge bød gøre kumler disse efter Gorm fader sin og efter Thyra moder sin, den Harald som sig vandt Danmark al og Norge og danerne gjorde kristne
Ud fra disse tekster kan vi altså udlede, at Gorm den Gamle var gift med Thyra og far til Harald Blåtand. Det antages, at Gorm ved sin død blev begravet i gravkammeret i den nordlige gravhøj i Jelling, og senere blev overflyttet til en grav i kirken. Træ fra gravkammeret er dateret dendrokronologisk. Det viste sig, at det var fældet sent på året 958. Gorm må altså være død i det år. Gorms skelet er fundet ved en udgravning i kirken.
Gorm den Gamle omtales af Snorri Sturluson og Adam af Bremen. Disse værker er dog skrevet mere end 100 år efter Gorms død. Derfor må oplysningerne i dem behandles med betydelig forsigtighed. Snorri Sturlason kalder ham Gorm Hardeknudsøn. Derfor antages det, at han var søn af Hardeknud.
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Gorm den gamle, eller Vurm, kung av Danmark cirka 910 till någon gång under 940-talet. Död 958 (tidpunkten är dendrokronologiskt fastställd efter brädorna i hans grav).
Snorre Sturlason kallar honom Gorm Hardeknudson. Möjligen var Gorm därför son till Knut I (Hardeknut).
Regerade från orten Jelling. Gift med Tyra Danebot. Omnämns på den lilla Jellingestenen;
”Kurm kunukr karthi kubl thussi aft Thurui kun sina Tanmarkar bot”
lyder translitteringen av texten på stenen som har fått två tolkningar, dels ”Kung Gorm gjorde detta kummel efter sin hustru Thyra, Danmarks beskyddare”, men också ”Kung Gorm, Danmarks beskyddare, gjorde detta kummel efter sin hustru Thyra”.
Om Gorm berättade den senare kung Sven Estridsen för Adam av Bremen att han var den ”som jag vill kalla en gruvlig orm och som var i hög grad fientligt inställd till alla kristna. Han planerade att fullständigt utrota kristendomen i Danmark, fördrev Guds präster från sitt område och lät också döda många under tortyr”.
Barn
Harald Blåtand
Toke Gormsen
Knut Gormsson (Knud Dana-Ast)
Gunhild Gormsdotter (Gunhild Gormsdatter)
--------------------
# ID: I10289
# Name: Gorm the Old ERIKSON King of Denmark
# Sex: M
# Birth: 0860 in Abt 840 of Denmark
# Death: 0941 in Abt 940 Gormshoj, Jelling, Vejle, Denmark
# Religion: Sources: Microsoft Encarta 1994 ed.
# Note:
Note: Subject: Re: Who was Gorm the Old?
From: Anders Berg
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 15:28:57 +0100
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19961117152842.2e7f7ee4@mail.algonet.se>
Peter Murray wrote:
>For the present
>I cannot accept that Hardecnudth Wrm and Gorm the Old are thesame
>person despite definite similarities in the deeds attributed to
>them and their both having a son Harald. The information fromAdam
>of Bremen quoted by Anders has set me wondering if Adam everused
>the name Gorm at all. I do not see how the epithet Vurm (orWrm or
>Orm) could be equated with the Kurm (Gorm) of the greater and
>lesser Jelling rune stones.
Adam never uses the name Gorm. He only mentions him (if it isGorm)
three times, in ch. 55 as "Hardeknut Vurm", in ch. 57 as "Vurm"and
in ch. 59 "Vurm".
As you point out, it looks more like an epithet Orm/Wurm = worm
(or snake) than a personal name.
In an earlier chapter Adam mentions one Guttorm (Guthrum), anephew of
Horich, so he was familiar with the name.
>But who was Hardecnudth Wrm? I think he could not easily bethe
>same as Horda-Knut son of Svein (the Hardegon of Adam ofBremen)
>who would seem to be too early:
>- he may have been involved in the expulsion of Halfdan(prob
> not from Denmark but rather from East Anglia and/or
> Northumbria in which case this would be c874/5);
>- he may have been brother of Guthrum Athelstan (Gorm) of
> E.Anglia, supposedly campaigned in Scotland sometime inthe
> reign of Giric (878-889);
>- He is stated to be father apparently of Guthred (boy kingof
> York 883, who d.895). The 2nd Guthrum K.of East Anglia,who
> d.916, may also have been a son of Horda-Knut.
>These and other references to this earlier Horda-Knut are allof
>course late and unreliable in themselves, but they do convey an
>overall impression of who he was.
These ref. seem clearly earlier than the Svein's son Hardegon of
Adam of Bremen (cf. Todd's recent summary of early Danishkings).
Your first two points at least can be found in A-S Chronicle,but
no Hardeknuth (or the like) is mentioned there:
"A.D. 875. This year went the army from Repton; and Healfden
advanced with some of the army against the Northumbrians, and
fixed his winter-quarters by the river Tine. The army then
subdued that land, and oft invaded the Picts and the
Strathclydwallians. Meanwhile the three kings, Guthrum,Oskytel,
and Anwind, went from Repton to Cambridge with a vast army, and
sat there one year. This summer King Alfred went out to seawith
an armed fleet, and fought with seven ship-rovers, one of whomhe
took, and dispersed the others."
"A.D. 878. This year about mid-winter, after twelfth-night, the
Danish army stole out to Chippenham, and rode over the land of
the West-Saxons; where they settled, and drove many of thepeople
over sea; and of the rest the greatest part they rode down, and
subdued to their will; -- ALL BUT ALFRED THE KING. He, with a
little band, uneasily sought the woods and fastnesses of the
moors. And in the winter of this same year the brother of
Ingwar and Healfden landed in Wessex, in Devonshire, with three
and twenty ships, and there was he slain, and eight hundred men
with him, and forty of his army. There also was taken the war-
flag, which they called the RAVEN. In the Easter of this year
King Alfred with his little force raised a work at Athelney;from
which he assailed the army, assisted by that part of
Somersetshire which was nighest to it. Then, in the seventhweek
after Easter, he rode to Brixton by the eastern side of Selwood;
and there came out to meet him all the people of
Somersersetshire, and Wiltshire, and that part of Hampshirewhich
is on this side of the sea; and they rejoiced to see him. Then
within one night he went from this retreat to Hey; and withinone
night after he proceeded to Heddington; and there fought withall
the army, and put them to flight, riding after them as far asthe
fortress, where he remained a fortnight. Then the army gave him
hostages with many oaths, that they would go out of his kingdom.
They told him also, that their king would receive baptism. And
they acted accordingly; for in the course of three weeks after,
King Guthrum, attended by some thirty of the worthiest men that
were in the army, came to him at Aller, which is near Athelney,
and there the king became his sponsor in baptism; and his
crisom-leasing was at Wedmor. He was there twelve nights with
the king, who honoured him and his attendants with manypresents."
"A.D. 890. This year Abbot Bernhelm conducted the alms of the
West-Saxons and of King Alfred to Rome; and Guthrum, king of the
Northern men, departed this life, whose baptismal name was
Athelstan. He was the godson of King Alfred; and he abode among
the East-Angles, where he first established a settlement. The
same year also went the army from the Seine to Saint Lo, whichis
between the Bretons and the Franks; where the Bretons foughtwith
them, obtained the victory, and drove them out into a river, in
which many of them were drowned. This year also was Plegmund
chosen by God and all his saints to the archbishopric in
Canterbury." [from OMACL release #17]
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
>Gorm, son of Harthecnut, a heathen in 935 (note this is only ayear
>after the baptism of Chnuba, so the French couldn't have beenpleased by
>the reversal). Certainly identical to Gorm the Old.
The 935 date is from Adam, I suppose, or is there any othersource that
clearly indicate that it really was Gorm that Unni met? Theidentification
seems to heavily rely on the son Harald, whose characteristicsclosely
matches Harald Bluetooth's. But as Stewart Baldwin pointed out,Adam may
be making two different visits from Bremen into one, namelyUnni's visit.
It is disturbing that Adam doesn't name Harald's father, well,not Gorm
anyway.
Cheers,
Anders
Subject: Who was Gorm the Old?
From: "Peter E. Murray"
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 17:20:13 -0500
Message-ID: <199611232220.RAA28139@tor-srs1.netcom.ca>
Postings on 15 & 16 Nov appear to consider the date 958 forGorm's
death as archaeologically proven. I must repeat that the
dendrochronological date 958 mentioned by Stewart Baldwin CANNOTbe
taken as the likely date of Gorm's death unless the wood usedwas
from the chamber in the mound and not from the coffin. Whatdoes
it say about this in the archaeological report (assuming thiscan
be located)? The reason is that Gorm and Thyri were reinterred
under a later church by their son Harald, presumably upon
conversion to Christianity, and the date could apply to thatevent.
Incidentally, I think it is remarkable for wooden coffins to be
well enough preserved over 1000 years for this dating to bedone.
Were they in some kind of chamber? The bones were jumbled up in
the coffins, a further indication that they had been moved. Is
there any evidence that the coffins themselves, and not just the
bones, were moved from the original burial mound? The double
burial chamber in the mound was empty but showed apparently some
sign of use. The chamber was large and lined with wood, so it
would be interesting to establish if this was also dated -- It
would presumably date from earlier in Gorm's reign, perhaps ator
before the time of Thyri's death.
John Yohalem has softened my stand somewhat on the Gorm/Vurm
question (on the assumption that Adam of Bremen may have been abad
listener), and the information from Anders that on two of three
occasions Adam simply calls him Vurm suggests it is more than an
epithet, or else he may have deliberately distorted his name to
make it sound like snake (vurm = snake). Looking at my notes Isee
that there was another Gorm, a jarl sometimes called Horm, whowas
active in Dublin 852 and killed in Wales (I think) in 855. I
wonder if Adam conversed with king Svein in Danish or even knewthe
language. Is there any precedent to suggest that "Kurm", asused
by both king Gorm himself and his son Harald, could be a
contraction of Knut-Orm? And is the name Gorm used at all inthe
Danish Royal family after Gorm's time as one might expect for a
famous antecedent? Or even the name Orm? I don't think so.
Finally there is a statement by John of Wallingford (another vlate
source cited by Starcke) that king Athelstan had visited Gormthe
Old in Denmark in his youth (I wonder how John of W spelledGorm?).
As Athelstan was born c895 and became king in 924/5 this would
place Gorm on the throne too early. One author (can't recallwho)
placed the expulsion of Sigerich by Hardegon as early as c920,so
I wonder how flexible the dating of Adam's king sequenceOlaf-Cnob-
Sigerich is on the early side.
Thanks again to Anders, Stewart and John for the further input.
Peter
Subject: Re: Who was Gorm the Old?
From: "Todd A. Farmerie"
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 17:53:02 -0500
Message-ID: <3298D1CE.58F7@po.cwru.edu>
Peter E. Murray wrote:
>
> Finally there is a statement by John of Wallingford (another vlate
> source cited by Starcke) that king Athelstan had visited Gormthe
> Old in Denmark in his youth (I wonder how John of W spelledGorm?).
> As Athelstan was born c895 and became king in 924/5 this would
> place Gorm on the throne too early.
I suspect that this is confusion with the King Gorm who mintedcoins in
York about 900.
> One author (can't recall who)
> placed the expulsion of Sigerich by Hardegon as early as c920,so
> I wonder how flexible the dating of Adam's king sequenceOlaf-Cnob-
> Sigerich is on the early side.
>
The 934 date for Cnupa is not from Adam, and appears solid.
taf
Subject: Re: Who was Gorm the Old?
From: sbald@auburn.campus.mci.net (Stewart Baldwin)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 01:03:41 GMT
Message-ID: <57ak2t$br8@news.campus.mci.net>
"Peter E. Murray" wrote:
>Postings on 15 & 16 Nov appear to consider the date 958 forGorm's
>death as archaeologically proven. I must repeat that the
>dendrochronological date 958 mentioned by Stewart BaldwinCANNOT be
>taken as the likely date of Gorm's death unless the wood usedwas
>from the chamber in the mound and not from the coffin. Whatdoes
>it say about this in the archaeological report (assuming thiscan
>be located)? The reason is that Gorm and Thyri were reinterred
>under a later church by their son Harald, presumably upon
>conversion to Christianity, and the date could apply to thatevent.
My information came from the article on Gorm in "MedievalScandinavia:
an Encyclopedia" (New York and London, 1993), which gives source
citations to the scholarly literature. As I stated in aprevious
posting, the wood which gave the date 958 came from the burial
chamber, and NOT from a coffin (as I had carelessly misstated
earlier).
>Incidentally, I think it is remarkable for wooden coffins to be
>well enough preserved over 1000 years for this dating to bedone.
>Were they in some kind of chamber? The bones were jumbled upin
>the coffins, a further indication that they had been moved. Is
>there any evidence that the coffins themselves, and not justthe
>bones, were moved from the original burial mound? The double
>burial chamber in the mound was empty but showed apparentlysome
>sign of use. The chamber was large and lined with wood, so it
>would be interesting to establish if this was also dated -- It
>would presumably date from earlier in Gorm's reign, perhaps ator
>before the time of Thyri's death.
See above.
>John Yohalem has softened my stand somewhat on the Gorm/Vurm
>question (on the assumption that Adam of Bremen may have been abad
>listener), and the information from Anders that on two of three
>occasions Adam simply calls him Vurm suggests it is more thanan
>epithet, or else he may have deliberately distorted his name to
>make it sound like snake (vurm = snake). Looking at my notes Isee
>that there was another Gorm, a jarl sometimes called Horm, whowas
>active in Dublin 852 and killed in Wales (I think) in 855. I
>wonder if Adam conversed with king Svein in Danish or even knewthe
>language. Is there any precedent to suggest that "Kurm", asused
>by both king Gorm himself and his son Harald, could be a
>contraction of Knut-Orm? And is the name Gorm used at all inthe
>Danish Royal family after Gorm's time as one might expect for a
>famous antecedent? Or even the name Orm? I don't think so.
Not being a linguist, I am not in a position to commentdirectly, but
it is worth noting that the recent English translators of bothAnnales
Bertiniani and Annales Fuldenses translate the name Vurm (882)as
Gorm. I do not recall ever seeing the equation Gorm=Orm=Vurm
questioned in the literature.
>Finally there is a statement by John of Wallingford (another vlate
>source cited by Starcke) that king Athelstan had visited Gormthe
>Old in Denmark in his youth (I wonder how John of W spelledGorm?).
>As Athelstan was born c895 and became king in 924/5 this would
>place Gorm on the throne too early. One author (can't recallwho)
>placed the expulsion of Sigerich by Hardegon as early as c920,so
>I wonder how flexible the dating of Adam's king sequenceOlaf-Cnob-
>Sigerich is on the early side.
Gnupa/Chnob was still alive in 934, when he was defeated by theGerman
king Henry the Fowler, and this is the only clear date thatexists for
the kings from Heiligo/Helgi to Hardegon/Hardeknud, as far as Iknow.
Subject to this one restriction, the possible chronology seemsto be
quite flexible. If these kings all ruled one after another,then it
would appear that we are forced to place Helgi, Olaf, Gnupa (and
Gyrth) in the interval between 887 and 934, followed by veryshort
reigns for Gnupa's son Sigeric/Sigtrygg and for Hardeknud,followed by
a reign beginning ca. 936 for Gorm (assuming that the usual
interpretation of Adam is right about Gorm being a contemporaryof
Unni). If they did not reign one after another, but at the sametime
in different parts of Denmark (and Adam admits that he is notsure),
then Hardegon/Hardeknut could have been reigning in his part of
Denmark well before 934, and Sigeric could have a significantoverlap
with Gorm.
Stewart Baldwin
Subject: Re: Who was Gorm the Old?
From: erich@wubios.wustl.edu (Erich Schraer)
Date: 25 Nov 1996 11:20:10 -0600
Message-ID: <57ckga$f10@wubiosas.wustl.edu>
Peter E. Murray wrote (among other things):
... Is there any precedent to suggest that "Kurm", as used
by both king Gorm himself and his son Harald, could be a
contraction of Knut-Orm?
...
"Kurm" would actually be the normal runic form of "Gorm". TheNorse
reduced the number of runes - from 24 in the Common Germanicfuthark to
16. This was at a time when the number of distinct sounds in thelanguage
(mostly vowels) increased dramatically. Rather than more runesbeing
added as happened in Anglo-Saxon, the number was reduced, sothat many
runes had to serve for two or more sounds. The old G-rune wasremoved and
the K-rune was used for both /k/ and /g/. Similarly the oldO-rune was
removed and the U-rune was used for /u/ and /o/ (and I thinkalso some
newer sounds like /o-slash/).
--Erich
--
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
Erich Schraer Division ofBiostatistics
Phone: (314)362-3681 Washington University MedicalSchool
Fax: (314)362-2693 660 S. Euclid Ave., Box8067
Email: erich@wubios.wustl.edu St. Louis, MO63110
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
Subject: Re: Who was Gorm the Old?
From: sbald@auburn.campus.mci.net (Stewart Baldwin)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 23:26:08 GMT
Message-ID: <57d2nu$g8o@news.campus.mci.net>
"Todd A. Farmerie" wrote:
>Peter E. Murray wrote:
>>
>> Finally there is a statement by John of Wallingford (anotherv late
>> source cited by Starcke) that king Athelstan had visited Gormthe
>> Old in Denmark in his youth (I wonder how John of W spelledGorm?).
>> As Athelstan was born c895 and became king in 924/5 thiswould
>> place Gorm on the throne too early.
>I suspect that this is confusion with the King Gorm who mintedcoins in
>York about 900.
[snip]
There was a Cnut who was minting coins at York during that time,and
also at Quentovic in France (near Calais) and at Cunnetti (anunknown
location), but I have never heard of this Gorm. Is the above
statement a mistake, or is there a recent numismatic discoverywhich I
have missed?
Stewart Baldwin
Subject: Re: Who was Gorm the Old?
From: "Todd A. Farmerie"
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 12:34:55 -0500
Message-ID: <329C7BBF.5E2D@po.cwru.edu>
Stewart Baldwin wrote:
>
> "Todd A. Farmerie" wrote:
>
> >I suspect that this is confusion with the King Gorm whominted coins in
> >York about 900.
>
> There was a Cnut who was minting coins at York during thattime, and
> also at Quentovic in France (near Calais) and at Cunnetti (anunknown
> location), but I have never heard of this Gorm. Is the above
> statement a mistake, or is there a recent numismatic discoverywhich I
> have missed?
OOPS! I was thinking of one King, and typed another. The KingI meant
to imply was Guthrum/Athelstan, who was stalemated and baptizedby
Alfred. (Admittedly, he probably died bef. Athelstan of Wessexwas
born, but the common name may have resulted in confusion.)
Todd
# DANE: Y
# ROYL: Y
# SCAN: Y
# Change Date: 22 MAR 1999
Father: Harold II K. in Staelland
Father: Erik II ERIKSON King of Denmark
Mother: Elgiva DE WESSEX b: ABT 0870
Marriage 1 Thyri (Thyre "Danebod") Queen of Denmark b: ABT 0844 in Denmark
Children
1. Harold II Blaatand (Bluetooth) GORMSON King of Denmark b: ABT 0910 in Denmark 0960
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Gorm den gamle
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Gorm efter att ha fått reda på sin son Knuts död.Gorm den gamle, eller Vurm, kung av Danmark cirka 910 till någon gång under 940-talet. Född 875, död 958 (tidpunkten är dendrokronologiskt fastställd efter brädorna i hans grav).
Snorre Sturlason kallar honom Gorm Hardeknudson. Möjligen var Gorm därför son till Knut I (Hardeknut).
Runsten Tyra, framsida
Runsten Tyra, baksidaRegerade från orten Jelling. Gift med Tyra Danebot. Omnämns på den lilla Jellingestenen;
”Kurm kunukr karthi kubl thussi aft Thurui kun sina Tanmarkar bot”
lyder translitteringen av texten på stenen som har fått två tolkningar, dels ”Kung Gorm gjorde detta kummel efter sin hustru Thyra, Danmarks beskyddare”, men också ”Kung Gorm, Danmarks beskyddare, gjorde detta kummel efter sin hustru Thyra”.
Om Gorm berättade den senare kung Sven Estridsen för Adam av Bremen att han var den ”som jag vill kalla en gruvlig orm och som var i hög grad fientligt inställd till alla kristna. Han planerade att fullständigt utrota kristendomen i Danmark, fördrev Guds präster från sitt område och lät också döda många under tortyr”.
Levnadsbeskrivning
Gorm den gamle, eller Vurm, kung av Danmark cirka 910 till någon gång under 940-talet. Född 875, död 958 (tidpunkten är dendrokronologiskt fastställd efter brädorna i hans grav). Möjligen son till Knut I (Hardeknut). Regerade från orten Jelling. Gift med Tyra Danebot. Omnämns på den lilla Jellingestenen; ”Kurm kunukr karthi kubl thussi aft Thurui kun sina Tanmarkar bot” lyder translitteringen av texten på stenen som har fått två tolkningar, dels ”Kung Gorm gjorde detta kummel efter sin hustru Thyra, Danmarks beskyddare”, men också ”Kung Gorm, Danmarks beskyddare, gjorde detta kummel efter sin hustru Thyra”. Om Gorm berättade den senare kung Sven Estridsen för Adam av Bremen att han var den ” som jag vill kalla en gruvlig orm och som var i hög grad fientligt inställd till alla kristna. Han planerade att fullständigt utrota kristendomen i Danmark, fördrev Guds präster från sitt område och lät också döda många under tortyr”.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorm_the_Old
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Gorm the Old - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Gorm was neither old nor unwise; when correctly interpreted, early sources point to him as being open-minded and pragmatic as far as Denmark's relationship with the Christian neighbors to the south was concerned, but earlier historians often confused him with his father who supposedly withstood the coming of Christianity for as long as he lived.
His skeleton is believed to have been found at the site of the first Christian church of Jelling.
Often maligned as a cruel old dotard and a staunch heathen, Gorm was probably born around 910-915, and died in late 958 according to dendrochronological studies of the wood in his burial chamber.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorm_of_Denmark
Pop Thought -- Michael May
The other men laugh and say that he and Conan were hit too hard in the heads, but then Conan opens his hand and reveals a piece of unearthly clothing that the frost giant’s daughter had been wearing when she got away from him.
Then Gorm claims that he once saw her himself and narrowly escaped.
When they hear his story, Gorm explains that Conan’s seen Ymir’s daughter who lures men who’ve been injured in battle to their deaths.
http://www.popthought.com/display_column.asp?DAID=797
History of the Christian Church, Volume IV: Mediaeval Christianity. A.D. 590-1073. (i.ii.xxiv)
King Gorm himself was a grim heathen; but his queen, Thyra Danabod, had embraced Christianity, and both under Rimbert and his successor, Adalgar, 888–909, the Christian missionaries were allowed to work undisturbed.
By the peace it was agreed that King Gorm should allow the preaching of Christianity in his realm, and Unni took up the cause again with great energy.
The churches were burnt, the missionaries were killed or expelled, and nothing but the decisive victory of Henry the Fowler, king of Germany, over the Danish king saved the Christians in Denmark from complete extermination.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/hcc4.i.ii.xxiv.html
UNESCO Courier: The rune-stones of Jelling - Jelling, Denmark
By giving King Gorm a Christian funeral Harald made a clear religious and political demonstration.
King Gorm erected a stone in Jelling in memory of his wife, Thyra, and Harald did the same for both of his parents after Gorm's death in 958.
As for Queen Thyra, no trace of her grave has yet been found, and the mystery of where she was buried remains.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1310/is_1996_May/ai_1845...
GERMANIA: Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Vandals, Vikings, Orkney, etc.
Widukind is supposed to have been related some some Danish kings and spent some time there in refuge.
The first properly historical king of Denmark was Gorm the Old, who is said to have been a son of Hardeknut (Canute I), but is shown by Ashley descended through Canute, Frodo, and Harald II.
We are then quickly into the fully history period, for which there don't seem to be major uncertainties, except for some overlapping reigns that result in some kings being dropped from some accounts.
http://www.friesian.com/germania.htm
Nørresundby: Jelling-the city of the kings
The other one, which is a bit smaller, has been raised by Gorm as a memento of his wife Thyra.
This cup has been used as a proof of the original burial of Gorm in this hill (the first burial of Gorm, perhaps 35 years before the Christianity was introduced officially by his son Harald), because the ornamentation of the cup corresponds with the ornamentation of the so called "Art of Jelling".
The inscription is: "Gorm the king made these runes after his wife Tyre, the penance of Denmark".
http://www.viking.no/e/info-sheets/denmark/norresundby/jelling.htm
Table of Contents and Excerpt, Hollander, Saga of the Jómsvíkings
And when Gorm had made his wishes known to the earl, the earl answered that his daughter was to decide for herself, "because she is much wiser than I." So the king addressed his suit to her.
The old heroic ideal of uninhibited and unabashed self-assertion and the martial virtues appeal to him far more than Christian ethics--of which, in sober truth, there is no trace in the saga.
The earl loved her dearly, and with her advice considered he had the governance of his people firmly in hand.
http://www.utexas.edu/utpress/excerpts/exholsap.html
Medieval Scandinavian Kingdoms (A
During Gorm's absence on his inroads into Germany and France his kingdom was ruled by his queen, Thyra, a woman of more than ordinary vigor of mind.
Denmark was founded by Gorm the Old, and Norway by Harald Fairhair, about A. 875 while Sweden was founded by the royal race of
Er det kun en brøkdel af Danskerne/Svenskerne/Normændene, der stammer tilbage til Gorm?
Går vi længere tilbage i tiden har vi en Hardicnut eller Hardeknud (f. ca. 816, d. ca. 866), hvis søn Guthfrith Hardicnutson ? ca. 895-96 dukker op som den første engelske vikingekonge af York år 884. I England, Northumbria, opstod et helt lille dynasti af dennes sønner, der regerede helt frem til år 910. Hardicnut - Guthfrith Hardicnutson ? Sigfred ? Cnut. Kilderne til dokumentation af dette er ovennævnte Adam af Bremen samt den Angelsachsiske Krønike fra ca. år 891.
Den sidste person vi kender af denne æt er kong Angantyr dokumenteret i "The Anglo-Saxon Missionaries in Germany" oversat af C. H. Talbot. Missionæren St. Willibrord var ærkebiskob i Utrecht fra år 695 og til sin død år 739 og han rejste fra Frisland til Danmark år 714 for at undersøge mulighederne for at missionere blandt danerne. Her mødte han kongen Ongendus dvs. Angantyr.
Det er tvivlsomt om dette overhovedet er samme slægt og derfor kan ingen slægtsrelationer opsættes mellem grupperne selv om en del slægtsforskere ynder at trække deres slægtsspor helt tilbage til denne tidlige Vikingetid. Dog har en enkelt forskerkilde dristigt foreslået at Angantyr er af én og samme æt som nævnte kongeslægt og udgjorde et første dynasti i en lang (jysk?) kongerække. Dette sidste gør måske, at det sikkert kun er en brøkdel af os nuværende danskere, der er af afstamning fra Gorm og dermed Harder-stammen. Resten af os stammer med stor sandsynlighed fra daner-stammen, der menes at udspringe af svearnes æt, nævnt af den romerske historieskriver Tacitus, der levede i perioden år 55-120 e.Kr.
Med hensyn til Gorm den Gamle. Så er jeg klar over at det ikke er meget der kan siges med sikkerhed om ham, alt kan fortolkes, jeg ville vel på det nærmeste bare høre om nogen var enig med mig. det kender jeg en der er foruden mig selv og det er nok, jeg behøver ingen kilder, han er forsket i adskillige kilder og fundet frem til at der samtidig med at Svend Estridsen var konge, var et forskeri af en anden verden i gang for at finde Svend Estridsens arveret til et Lothringensisk len, som Svend Hardeknudsen Langefod, Gorm den Gamles far eller bror, og derefter Gorms egen søn Toke besad. Toke Gormsens mor var dog ikke Thyra. Toke Gormsen, der nævnes på flere runesten, døde vistnok i slaget ved Fyrisval var det 985? Jeg betragter ham som en reel person, skånsk jarl, og indehaver af det Lothringensiske len, samt Jarl og farfar til Hvideslægtens stamfar Toke Trylle.
Jeg mener stadig, at Gorm blev født i York!