Capt. Richard Norman - Date conflicts in Captain Richard Norman's profile

Started by Private User on Monday, June 2, 2014


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Private User
6/2/2014 at 1:47 PM

He can't have been christened years before he was born. According to the best sources I've been able to turn up (listed under Sources in overview), his parentage is unproven. Would it be better to disconnect him from the current parents: John Fryeth Fryeth (aka Norman) and Esprota de Senlis?

I did the best I could in sorting out the children and their dates and places of birth in his overview, as they've been in a real muddle. I'd like to correct their profiles to reflect the information in his overview if none of the managers object.

If anyone has a copy of the TAG article listed in his Sources: Mahler, Leslie. "English Origin of Richard Norman of Salem, Mass." The American Genealogist (TAG). NEHGS, Boston, Massachusetts, Vol. 77: No. 2: 102-3 (Apr 2002), that would be very helpful.

7/15/2014 at 8:38 PM

Hi Jennifer,
I've just run across his profile in my tree and it looks like his profile has been problematic elsewhere as well based on this: which provides some sources for various portions of his tree, whether correct or not. I'll keep looking for a copy of the Leslie Mahler article. The wikitree link above says the John Fryeth parentage link is weak at best and that there are potentially two Richard Normans (the immigrant and the one married to Margaret Alford). I'll keep looking for more info.

Private User
7/15/2014 at 9:07 PM

Thank you so much for your help on this! I don't like making unilateral changes to a profile that affects so many - it's much better to get some sort of consensus first!

I agree that the Fryeth link is very shaky. Perhaps we should set a date on which we'll disconnect if we don't hear from anyone else? If you're comfortable with that, how's a week or so?

I think the Mahler article is going to provide a solid road map for this family group, when and if we can find it. I wish wish wish I could afford a NEGHS membership.

Again, thank you!

7/20/2014 at 10:13 AM

A deadline sounds okay to me, but we should probably make it a month I think, since not everyone checks in daily. Perhaps we can ask around among curators to find out more about the Mahler article, since I don't have a NEGHS membership either and that seems to be most likely way we'll get that information.

7/20/2014 at 10:25 AM

As far as the christening data itself, it sounds like it can be found in England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975 on FamilySearch, so I'll go ahead and adjust his children's birth years accordingly

7/20/2014 at 11:19 AM

I'm realizing this will definitely need some curatorial assistance in order to straighten out the mother of the baptized children. My best guess at this point: follow baptismal records as indicated @ and FamilySearch for the children of Richard and Florence. Richard and Margaret Alford are likely a different couple - "English records report such a couple, Richard/Margaret, married "St. Giles in the Wood, Devon, England," on 02 Sept 1615 (FamilySearch collection cites FHL film 91930). Thus, while Richard and Margaret were real persons, the Charminster records identify the immigrant and his wife differently." If the children's names in descent lines are all the same for both couples, what we likely have is a merge of two different Richards with different wives before the christening information became available. If the children's names are not all the same, then we likely have two immigrant families which were merged and will need to be separated. We'll have to see whether we can find any primary source information about Margaret (Alford) Norman in the United States, I think. Thirdly, the Fryeth to Norman issue: The New England Historical and Genealogical Register of 1915 (available on Google books) provides evidence of a Richard Fryeth alias Norman son of John Fryeth alias Norman of Ipswich, but this is likely to be a third Richard due to the difference in location between Ipswich and Charminster.

7/20/2014 at 11:33 AM

One more note: St. Giles in the Wood (Richard/Margaret Alford married) to Charminster (Richard/Florence's children baptized) is about 95 miles and then it's about another 218 miles further northeast to St. Mary at the Tower, Ipswich where Richard Fryeth alias Norman tried to claim land as the son and heir of John Fryeth alias Norman. Given the state of transportation in the 17th century, most likely three different Richards.

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