Eidel Perel Rokeach (Katz), Cohen - Somebody got this all wrong

Eidel - daughter of Menachem Mendel and Sheindil (Shtengen) Margolios, granddaughter of Moshe Mordecai Margolios who was her MATERNAL grandfather.

Private User, Private User,Private User, Shlomo Flam,
Raziel Yohai Seckbach,Randy Schoenberg,
Private User,Shulem Jeremias,
Pam Karp,Private User,
Private User,Private User,
Private User,מנחם מענדל שארף,
Private User,Private User, Private User,Private User,
Yanki Wolf

Dear Menachem,

As a direct descendant we thank you so much for all the research and excellent sources you have provided to help clear up the confusion that has been uncovered in this area of the tree.

The most reliable source that we had access to so far to unravel this complicated area is Dr. Neil Rosenstein's genealogical opus http://www.geni.com/projects/The-Unbroken-Chain-by-Dr-Neil-Rosenste..., "The Unbroken Chain". Therefore I have added him to this discussion, as well as all the other managers collaborating in Eidel's profile so we can all be on the same page regarding any suggested repairs to be made.

So far, "The Unbroken Chain" has been our best guide for this complex area. ie. Chapter Xlll, page 861 which states that
G8.3 Leah Ashkenazi had three marriages. 
Her second marriage was to R' Moses, A.B.D. Zloczew, son of R' Eleazaer Rokeah, A.B.D. Amsterdam. From this marriage are descended the Shapiro and Rokeah-Belz- Chassidic Dynasties.

R' Moses' first wife was the daughter of R' Betzalel, son of R' Naftali Katz (Smichut-Chachamim - Chapter V).

But, we are all in accord that the area remains obscure, so we truly appreciate your additional sources to review in order to fix the branch.

I think all the relationships are as set forth above. Not to say that there are no mistakes. You can click "edit" and then go to the "relationships" tab on any profile to remove incorrect parents or spouses. You can also "move" a profile to another place, using the "move" feature. Geni is a very flexible tool for resolving any issues.

Private User, Raziel Yohai Seckbach, Private User, Shulem Jeremias As proficient Hebrew text interpreters, please let us know how to proceed if you decide any changes need to be made.

Seth Morgulas may also be a descendant of this family, if I remember correctly.

Sorry sorry sorry.

This is Eidel II, the granddaughter of Eidel I.

Eidel II is the DAUGHTER of Naftali 'the Semichas", and his beloved wife Esther-Sheindel. (I just read his fantastic book called Sefer Hatzavaa, in source number 3 above, part of the Maor Vezikaron journal) where he talks about her and writes his will to her in case he passes before her.

Her father's mother was Eidel the first.
Eidel I was the person I wrote about. I will now check and confirm that the information about Eidel the first is intact, and move all the sources from here to there...

So that is where my information disappeared to. It hadn't disappeared at all, I was looking at the wrong Eidel.

Also Yigal Burstein and Shmuel-Aharon Kam (Kahn / שמואל-אהרן קם (קאן can comment on the practice that we have followed for profiles with both Hebrew names and English transliterations or equivalents.

There is a huge diaspora who are descendants or otherwise interested in various parts of the Jewish tree and for these branches AS WELL AS FOR MANY OTHER PARTS OF THE NON-JEWISH GENI WORLD TREE, we are using two languages -- the language of the person of the profile and English as a language accessible to many Geni members who might have an interest in the profile.

People differ in how they do this. Some put English and Hebrew side by side, some put one in the Display Name and one in the name fields.

By the way, I lived in Israel and studied at the Hebrew University as a regular student, so I do read Hebrew but still when my Argentine husband's Israeli cousins put their Argentine relatives names in Hebrew -- and there are also duplicate profiles belonging to the Argentine family in Spanish -- I make sure that the names are in the language of the person in the profile. I find it amusing but not very enlightened to have people who were born and died in Argentina have their Spanish names only in Hebrew ;)

Of course for historic Jewish families, their language wasn't in fact Hebrew although some would be proficient in Hebrew, but they had Hebrew and Yiddish names (or perhaps Hebrew and other language names). And for the rabbinical families, there are genealogies using their Hebrew names (mostly genealogies with male family members...)

I am a Margolis but not related.

And guess what! I'm related to this Eidel through my MOTHER!!

My grandfather's mother's mother's father
mother's mother's mother's mother's father's
sister.

So Eidel's brother was Mordechai Katz, ancestor of
My mother's grandmother Pella Yaakob HYD bas Sima (Werzberger) HYD bas Tzvi Elimelech Cahane
ben Pella bas Freide-Rivka bas Chana (heschel Lewenstam), bas Rochel (Emden-Ashkenazi) bas Mordechai Katz.

Bringing up the memory of all these Tzadikim and Tzadikot should be for the blesseing.

You are so fortunate to be able to trace your ancestry back this far. I can only do this (thanks to Neil Rosenstein) on my Margolis line which is part of the large Katzenellenbogen family apparently.

We are probably related, but then we are all related, especially Jews.

Hatte Blejer Yes I am descendant of Sheindil - daughter of Moshe Mordecai, wife of Menachem Mendel Shtengen but through their son Moshe of Tarnograd. However, I don't really feel comfortable making changes to this part of the tree or even suggesting changes other than things that stand out as obvious open merges or errors. I would certainly defer to others on this. I do recall running into the Krakow descendants of Eliezer of Luboml while working on the Marulies family of Krakow, but that was about 200 years later.

While we are discussing Katzs, though, is anyone familiar with a Katz from the Slonim area in the mid to late 1800s who was a blind rabbi notable at the time for having memorized (or supposedly memorized) the entire Torah?

Margulies not Marulies, sorry, typo.

slightly off-topic

Rabbi Elazar Rokeach, Ma'ase Roke'ach - ABD Rakow, Tarnow, Brody. Amsterdam

is mentioned here.
when was he ABD of Amsterdam?

Private User Does the Hebrew Text אב"ד אמסטרדם on this site say that?

http://toladot.blogspot.com/2011/10/blog-post_25.html

. . . לרגל מלאות מאתיים ושבעים שנה לפטירתו של רבי אלעזר מבראד אב"ד אמסטרדם, בעל המעשה רוקח

hm, unfortunately i can't read Hebrew...

http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%90%D7%9C%D7%A2%D7%96%D7%A8_%D7%A8%...

בשנת תצ"ה נבחר לרבנות הקהילה האשכנזית באמשטרדם במקומו של ר' אברהם ברלינר שנפטר בשנת ת"צ.

The year was תצ"ה when he was appointed as ABD Amsterdam = 1734-35

Private User, Private User Ooops I see you beat me to it!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elazar_Rokeach_of_Amsterdam
Elazar Rokeach of Amsterdam] Rabbi Elazar Rokeach, also known as Eleazar ben Samuel (c. 1665—1742), was the author of Maaseh Rokeach, and Chief Rabbi of Amsterdam. . . cont.

http://books.google.com/books?id=pZAp3SWO-TYC&pg=PA123&lpg=...

. . . Rabbi Elazar Rokeach went from Brody to Holland to assume the chief rabbinic position in Amsterdam in 1735. . . cont.

Shlomo Flam You wrote to me extensively about R. Elazar Rokeach, when we conversed about his ancestry.

For those who interested some of the discussion remains in the discussion sections of:

Yitzchok Stengen

and

R. Yoel Feivish Margolis-Schtengen

Don't want to go too far off topic here, but in those discussions the open question remained that although he discussed his lineage in the Maaseh Rokeach it is still unclear- at least to me - how EXACTLY the lineage is correctly traced without skipping a number of generations back to Eleazar Rokeach of Worms.

Again, by no means an area I have any expertise in, just sharing some of the discourse I started trying to find some answers on Menachem Mendel Schtengen-Margolios's grandfather Yitzchok Schtengen.

Seth Morgulas Usually there is a strict tradition of descent that is carried forward and found in seforim. But, if there is a female ancestor, it could be that the seforim skip from famous ancestor to next famous descendant and leave out connecting maternal lines. That is just a thought.

Malka, no doubt that is likely. The question originally came up because of some conflicting items. Elazar Rokeach is a direct male descendant of Yitzchok Schtengen, as Menachem Mendel Schtengen-Margolios' father was Yoel Faivish Schtengen and his father Yitzchak.

http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=19721&st=&......

Joseph Zadek Cohen's book That suggests that the Schtengen family left Spain around 1492 during the expulsion. Does that seem right? Any ideas what their family name might have been in Spain as Schtengen does not seem like something they would have used in Spain unless they had come to Spain from somewhere else more recently.

But this might conflict with - for example - with Michael Honey's research which indicates that Yoel Faivish was born in Jullich (near Koln). Although one could certainly have a line of descent which goes from Worms to Spain and back to Germany.

So, then the question is who is correct, or are they both correct? If they are both correct then the particulars are a little more important in sorting it.

Seth Morgulas You are now working in a critical but incredibly obscure area due the mass destruction of Jewish libraries. However, I wonder if Private User could cite references for you to research.

Hello, i don't know if I can help, but, if you can clearly elucidate what is is sought, I will peruse my bookshelves of obscurity and see if I have a good book on it. The Katzenellenbogen and Eidel families are and interesting collection of branches about whom I'd like to learn more.

Your champion of obscurity,

Jaim

Private User Thank you. I will put together the entire question/issue tomorrow as best as I can.

This is maybe the best discussion I've seen on Geni. I love how we all are working together.

Katzenellenbogen are hardly obscure LOL.

By the way, Seth Morgulas and I have a Margolis DNA project on Family Tree DNA, for those of you with a male Margolis line.

Although the Y-DNA of my Margolis line turns out to be very close to the Y-DNA of my Reib-Rubenstein line. VERY. Which is strange since there is no indication that they were related and weren't from the same area.