Saul Wahl (1 day king) grandson of Mordechai Yaffe (Levush)?

Started by Private User on Monday, December 19, 2016
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Showing 1-30 of 54 posts
Private User
12/19/2016 at 3:22 AM

According to the Geni tree, Saul Wahl Katzenellenbogen (1 day King) is shown as the son of Rabbi Shmuel Yehuda Katzenellenbogen, MaHaShik and Abigail Ogla Katzenellenbogen, the latter being the daughter of Rabbi Mordechai Jaffe, Ba׳al "Halevushim". This seems like an obvious error. The birth dates of Saul Wahl Katzenellenbogen (1 day King) and Rabbi Mordechai Jaffe, Ba׳al "Halevushim" are just 11 years apart!

One plausible solution is that a son of Saul Wahl Katzenellenbogen (1 day King), Shmuel Yehuda Katzenellenbogen who had the same name as his paternal grandfather Rabbi Shmuel Yehuda Katzenellenbogen, MaHaShik was the son in law of Rabbi Mordechai Jaffe, Ba׳al "Halevushim". But again that doesn't fit with the current information on Geni, where wife, Shmuel Yehuda Katzenellenbogen is given as the daughter of Rabbi Moses ben Israel Isserles, "RaMA"?

Can someone clarify all this?

12/19/2016 at 11:43 AM

Yigal Burstein - I assume you curate this family?

Private User
12/19/2016 at 5:26 PM

I checked my records for the surname, Katzenellenbogen. I can't provide clarification to the issue but I do want to ask if you know whether or not this family had relatives in Krotoschin.

12/19/2016 at 11:30 PM
Private User
12/19/2016 at 11:43 PM

Janet, this katzenellenbogen lived in korotschin R' Benjamin Katzenellenbogen, Rosh Beth Din Krotoschin don't know if that's what you're looking for.

12/20/2016 at 4:53 AM

Private User,

My source, "The Unbroken Chain" doesn't give his maternal ancestry at all. It doesn't give his mother's maiden name.

Private User
12/20/2016 at 5:51 AM

Kevin Lawrence Hanit, whose maternal ancestry are you referring to? Saul Wahl Katzenellenbogen (1 day King)?

12/20/2016 at 9:01 AM

Private User,

Yes.

Private User
12/21/2016 at 5:51 AM

Avigayil was not a Katzenellenbogen.
Her grave in the Padua cemetery has a broken tombstone so even her fathers name is not available from that nor is it mentioned by any of her close relatives.

Private User
12/21/2016 at 5:52 AM

Nor was she a Jaffe

12/21/2016 at 6:10 AM

Private User,

So what should we do here on Geni?

Kevin

Private User
12/21/2016 at 8:59 AM

Private User, Kevin Lawrence Hanit

My sources seem to confirm this. Abigail Ogla Katzenellenbogen was indeed the mother of Saul Wahl Katzenellenbogen (1 day King) but not a daughter of Rabbi Mordechai Jaffe, Ba׳al "Halevushim".

I can't seem to find a source of wife, Shmuel Yehuda Katzenellenbogen being a daughter of Rabbi Moses ben Israel Isserles, "RaMA"? Does anyone have a source?

(The closest I could get is that her daughter Dina Katz Heschel, "haGedolah" married Rabbi Avraham Yehoshua Heschel [of Cracow] (Hanukat HaTorah) whose first wife was the daughter of someone else called Moshe Isserlis - Rabbi Moshe Leizer's Isserl's, of Vilna. That sounds far-fetched.)

12/21/2016 at 3:59 PM

Another confusing aspect of this puzzle is the "About" comment in the profile of Miriam Olga Isserlis (Miriam Olga Isserles (Luria), Maharshal's daughter), the daughter of The Maharshal, Rabbi Shlomo Luria, and the wife of Eliezer Isserlis (brother of the Remuh). When comparing Miriam Olga to HaLevush's alleged unlikely daughter Abigayil Olga, take note of two similar traits: the middle name Olga, and Miriam's 1530 birthdate. The most glaring contradiction shows Abigayil Olga as being born in 1525 and her alleged father, HaLevush, being born in 1530. On top of those unresolved issues, you have Abigayil Olga's alleged husband Shmuel Yehuda Katzenellenbogen born in 1521 and her alleged son (King-for-a-day) Saul Wahl Katzenellenbogen born in 1542.

Private User
12/26/2016 at 3:07 PM

Private User do you have a source for wife, Shmuel Yehuda Katzenellenbogen being a daughter of Rabbi Moses ben Israel Isserles, "RaMA"?

Private User
12/27/2016 at 3:54 PM

I wouldnt know if Mrs. Shmuel Yehuda Katzenellenbogen was a daughter of Rabbi Moshe ben Israel Isserles, "RaMa" הרמ״א or not. But i am a descendant of the 'wolf' family who are descendants from the Bach. And in sefer nefesh hadam it says that the wolf family are also descendants of the Rabbi Meir Katzenellenbogen, [Maharam of Padua] and Avraham Yehoshua Heschel [of Cracow] (Hanukat HaTorah) but no mention of Rabbi Moshe ben Israel Isserles, "RaMa" הרמ״א.

Private User
12/28/2016 at 5:45 AM

This could be because the RaMa’s neice Devorah Drucker was married to Shaul (1 day King) son of the MaHashik

Private User
12/28/2016 at 8:28 AM

Not the normal connotation of 'sheari'.

(Additionally, if I'm not mistaken Rabbi Meir Katzenellenbogen, Maharam of Padua is also referred to as 'sheari' by Rabbi Moses ben Israel Isserles, "RaMA". Needs to be checked if that was possibly before the marriage of Saul Wahl Katzenellenbogen (1 day King) and Deborah Rivkah Wahl-Katzenellenbogen, dunno).

Private User
12/29/2016 at 7:11 AM

true but if the MaHashik' would of been the Ramah's daughters grandfather this term would of been even more unlikely. also according to Geni HaRama was niftar 1573 and
Mrs. Shmuel Yehuda Katzenellenbogen (Isserles; dau. Rema) was born 1575!

kol tuv

Private User
12/31/2016 at 12:07 PM

Exactly! I'm confident that wife, Shmuel Yehuda Katzenellenbogen was not a daughter of Rabbi Moses ben Israel Isserles, "RaMA", thanks for pointing out the age discrepancies. The book Otzar Harabonim (Friedman) seems to say he was but as of now I know of no other source.

I'm equally (or perhaps, even more) sure that Abigail Ogla Katzenellenbogen was not a daughter of Rabbi Mordechai Jaffe, Ba׳al "Halevushim" nor was Saul Wahl Katzenellenbogen (1 day King) a grandson.

As I suggested in my first post, if there was a close connection between Rabbi Mordechai Jaffe, Ba׳al "Halevushim" and Saul Wahl Katzenellenbogen (1 day King) it would most likely to have been through the marriage of their children (i.e. 'mechutanim'). This would perhaps explain the confusion - the name Shmuel Yehuda. I have found confirmation of this in the book Shalshelet Hayuchasin (Lieberman).

It would be helpful if the curators and managers of these profiles, and anyone else in the know, if they could shed some light...

12/31/2016 at 12:08 PM

Does anyone know when the third edition of Private User's book "The Unbroken Chain" is coming out as we are mainly arguing about his work?

Private User
12/31/2016 at 12:22 PM

Within the next few hours ;-) according to this: http://tali.com/neilr/ !!!!

12/31/2016 at 1:03 PM

Private User,

I don't think so. But you never know.

12/31/2016 at 6:06 PM

It's coming out soon. I have worked a little with him on my branch and he let me know recently that it will be out soon. I know once it's out, it would be helpful to let descendants know about it.

12/31/2016 at 6:25 PM

Its only going to be chapters 1, 2 and 3.

12/31/2016 at 6:27 PM

There are 18 chapters in total in the 1990 version.

Private User
1/26/2017 at 9:04 AM

Just to make things more compliacted... this might actually help...

Shmuel Halevi Segal, of Bialystok details in the preface of his book http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=598&st=&pgnum=4 his descent from Rabbi Mordechai Jaffe, Ba׳al "Halevushim" via a daughter called אלקא (probably Elka).

Perhaps this is where the mix up started. Abigail Olga whoever she was, was not a daughter of Rabbi Mordechai Jaffe, Ba׳al "Halevushim" it was a daughter called Elka. The lineage brought in the afformentioned book has all been entered into Geni (by Menachem Mendel Labkovski, perhaps somewhat hesitantly judging by the ?s) and connected to Abigail Ogla Katzenellenbogen.

Rabbi Josef Lewinstein, A.B.D. Serock a respected geneologist writes in a letter brought here - http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46897&st=&pgnum=12 that Elka was married to someone called Avraham of Kremnitz who was a son of Rabbi Chaim Wahl, [Maharal s.in law] son in law of MaHaRaL of Prague - המהר״ל מפראג. (MaHaRaL of Prague - המהר״ל מפראג and Rabbi Mordechai Jaffe, Ba׳al "Halevushim" are sometimes referred to as 'mechutanim' i.e. their offsprings married.) This further explains the mix-up - the surname Wahl shared by Avraham of Kremnitz and Saul Wahl Katzenellenbogen (1 day King).

Rabbi Chaim Wahl, [Maharal s.in law] is not shown currently to have a son called Avraham.

P.S. The theory that Rabbi Josef Lewinstein, A.B.D. Serock suggests that Avrohom of Kremnitz was the father of Meir Kremnitzer, of Kalish seems inconsistent with what is written at the front of the book [http://hebrewbooks.org/19198 Orach Mishor] from the latter's son Rabbi Yohanan Kremnitzer, Dayan in Mezeritch, Lissa that Meir Kremnitzer, of Kalish's father was Rabbi Yitzhak Kremnitzer.

Yigal Burstein Private User, Kevin Lawrence Hanit.

Private User
2/22/2017 at 8:47 AM

Meir Wunder in his book Elef Margaliot (see https://www.geni.com/discussions/131365) lists a daughter of Rabbi Mordechai Jaffe, Ba׳al "Halevushim" called Volka married to someone called Shmuel Wahl "who is presumed to be Rabbi Shmuel Yehuda Katzenellenbogen, MaHaShik son of Rabbi Meir Katzenellenbogen, Maharam of Padua. This is the version currently showing on Geni if one assumes Volka is Abigail Ogla Katzenellenbogen, itself a somewhat baseless assumption.

As outlined above this presumtion is most definitely incorrect if one examines the dates of when these people lived.

3/14/2017 at 12:35 PM

Regarding an earlier discussion raised about the MaHashik, R. Shmuel Yehuda Katzenellenbogen, being related to the RaMa, R. Moses Isserles, another way that they were related is through their grandmothers, who were sisters.

MaHashik's paternal grandmother, the wife of R. Isaac Katzenellenbogen, was Julia Luria (1466-1510)
Julia-Malka Katzenellenbogen, bat Yehiel of Brisk,
a daughter of R. Yechiel Yehuda ben Aharon Luria (1430-1470).

RaMa's maternal grandmother, the wife of Eliezer Lipmann Shrentzels (1460-1558), was another Luria daughter, Dreisel Miriam Luria (1470-1559)
Dreizel Miriam Zeisel Schrenzel, [ReMA Gd.mother].

As Dreisel Miriam and Julia were sisters, the RaMa and the MaHashik were second cousins.

(In addition, as referred to earlier, the RaMa could have also identified as being linked to the MaHashik through the RaMa's niece, Devorah Drucker, the daughter of his sister, Kendel Isserles (b.1530). Devorah Drucker was married to Saul Wahl Katzenellenbogen, the son of the MaHashik.)

Showing 1-30 of 54 posts

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