Begue , husband of Amaudra, Count of Paris - Connect parents?

Started by Alex Moes © on Saturday, March 18, 2017
Showing 1-30 of 37 posts
3/18/2017 at 6:18 PM

Sharon Lee Doubell,

This morning there has been a suggestion to connect Bego as a son of Gérard I, count of Paris.

Checking Medlands it looks like Cawley has updated his page since you copied the text into the About. Cawley now states:

"Depoin suggests that Bego was the son of Gérard Comte de Paris[109]. He appears to assume this on the basis of the hereditary nature of the county of Paris, although it is far from clear that Carolingian counties in France at the time were routinely transmitted to family members by inheritance."

I don't know who Depoin is but obviously he must be an authority to be quoted by Charles, do you think we should connect or not? Personally, I would be happy to connect with a CN.

3/18/2017 at 6:22 PM

Dorie Toews please join in

3/18/2017 at 10:38 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beggo,_Count_of_Toulouse

Beggo (died 28 October 816) was the son of Gerard I of Paris and Rotrude, daughter of Carloman, son of Charles Martel. He was appointed Count of Toulouse, Duke of Septimania, Duke of Aquitaine, and Margrave of the Hispanic March in 806 and followed his father as Count of Paris in 815.

In 806, William of Gellone abdicated and Charlemagne appointed Beggo to take his place in Toulouse and the March of Gothia. He did not succeed his father in Paris, but was later placed in the comital office there, but did not live long after that.

He married either Amaudru, illegitimate daughter of Charlemagne or her niece, Alpais or Alpheidis, illegitimate daughter of Louis the Pious. Their children were:
Leuthard II, who later ruled Paris
Eberhard
Landrade
Susanna, whose son was Adalhard, eighth Count of Paris
Engeltrude, whose son was Eberhard of Friuli

Preceded by
William I Count of Toulouse
806–816 Succeeded by
Berengar
Preceded by
Stephen Count of Paris
815–816 Succeeded by
Leuthard I

https://www.morebooks.de/store/gb/book/beggo,-count-of-toulouse/isb...

3/18/2017 at 10:45 PM

On my Ancestry tree I made Alpais the illegitimate daughter of Louis the Pious and his wife Theudelinde of Sens as Beggo's wife and it works out better as far as dates go. I did have it the other way as Amaudru, illegitimate daughter of Charlemagne but changed it.

3/18/2017 at 10:59 PM

Alpaïs de Paris, Abbesse de St-Pierre de Reims

Alpaïs de Paris (daughter of Louis I), Abbesse de St-Pierre de Reims MP

Gender:
Female

Birth:
circa 797 >>>>>> this date is wrong , it's unknown
Casseneul, Lot-et-Garonne, Aquitane, France

Death:
after 852
Paris, Ille-de-France, France

Place of Burial:
Abbaye Saint-Pierre-les-Dames, Rheims, (Present département de la Marne), (Present Région Champagne-Ardenne), France

On my tree on Ancestry .com

Alpaïs de Paris abbess of St-Pierre de Reims

Birth unknown in Aachen, Städteregion Aachen, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany

Death 23 JUL 852 • Abbaye Saint-Pierre-Les-Dames

3/18/2017 at 11:03 PM

I hope this helps

3/18/2017 at 11:18 PM

Bego of Paris, Marquis de Septimanie, Comte de Paris is the same person as Beggo

Here is a good page to read too

http://familypedia.wikia.com/wiki/Begon_de_Paris_(c757-816)

It says that Beggo's first wife is Nomen nescio ( meaning anonymous or unnamed person.) so it could be that Amaudru was her ... What do you think?

3/18/2017 at 11:20 PM

Thanks for the headsup - I'll take a look later today when I get onto my computer.

3/18/2017 at 11:29 PM

Dorie Toews - this is a rude and unnecessary remark to put on an Overview. " Note to the curator Please do your home work and read below"
Is there a reason for such arrogant aggression?

3/19/2017 at 1:07 AM

https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=1722...

INFO APPEARS TO BE A CUT & PASTE FROM GENI? IT EVEN QUOTES ME AS A MANAGER?

3/19/2017 at 1:10 AM

RE> "Alpaïs de Paris, Abbesse de St-Pierre de Reims
Birth: circa 797 >>>>>> this date is wrong , it's unknown"

THE OVERVIEW CLEARLY STATES:
Alpais Date of birth: possibly c 797.(Louis was born in 778, and Alpaïde was the mother of two sons by 817 at the latest, so the estimate given should not be too far off.)

3/19/2017 at 1:23 AM

Alex Moes ©, on your sourced point:
=This morning there has been a suggestion to connect Bego as a son of Gérard I, count of Paris.
Checking Medlands it looks like Cawley has updated his page since you copied the text into the About. Cawley now states:
"Depoin suggests that Bego was the son of Gérard Comte de Paris[109]. He appears to assume this on the basis of the hereditary nature of the county of Paris, although it is far from clear that Carolingian counties in France at the time were routinely transmitted to family members by inheritance." http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKISH%20NOBILITY.htm#_Toc169575355
I don't know who Depoin is but obviously he must be an authority to be quoted by Charles, do you think we should connect or not? Personally, I would be happy to connect with a CN.=

Cawley is clearly skeptical about Gérard I, count of Paris's paternity of Bego

On Gerard's Overview the point is also made: " The county of Paris... is recorded in the late 8th and early 9th centuries as being held by count Gerard [I] and two of his sons, but was also governed by count Enguerrand, who was apparently unrelated to the earlier and later counts, during the later years of the 8th century. The example of count Gerard also shows that sources, especially in the earlier period, rarely specify which territory a particular count governed. Gerard, whose death is recorded in 779, is known to history as count of Paris. However, he is named in five charters dated between 747 and 775, none of which refer to his territorial holding when noting his title. Count Gerard's family also demonstrates how many different territories could be held at different times by members of a single family, his sons being recorded as counts of Paris, marquis of Septimania and count of Fezensac, while the latter's son was count of Vienne."

That being said, I agree with you that a Curator Note can do what Cawley has done, and log the uncertainty, while still keeping the relationship.
Justin Swanstrom do you have anymore thoughts on this?

3/19/2017 at 10:01 AM

I don't see that anything has changed. Cawley might have changed his text but the evidence is still the same.

Bego's parents are not named in primary sources. It's plausible he was a son of Gérard.

So the real question is whether the relationship is probable. That's a subjective decision. Given the lack of evidence, and the problems over who held which counties and to what extent they were hereditable, I'd say it's only probable if someone is going to slash their wrists over losing this line.

The honest answer is No. Too much doubt. Plausible, yes. Probable, no.

I suggest we stick with our previously agreed standard that we accept Cawley's outline unless there is solid evidence he is wrong. That would mean treating this line the same way Cawley does -- no parents for Bego but a discussion about the possibility his father was Gérard.

3/19/2017 at 10:26 AM

Sharon you always make things MP status without properly researching .

3/19/2017 at 10:39 AM

Sharon Doubell C

Today at 4:07 AM "https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=......

INFO APPEARS TO BE A CUT & PASTE FROM GENI? IT EVEN QUOTES ME AS A MANAGER?

NO Sharon
I did not get that link from Geni I got it as a hint I got from my account on Ancestry. com

Please do not yell at me , it's considered rude. Thank you

3/19/2017 at 10:48 AM

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bégon_de_Paris

NOTE all the references below

Notes and references [ edit | Change the code ]
1. ↑ Count Bégon de Paris on the website of the Foundation for Medieval Genealogy
2. ↑ Paternity of Alpais? On the Foundation for Medieval Genealogy website
3. ↑ Bulletin of the Historical and Archeological Society of Corbeil, Étampes and Hurepoix - From Historical and Archeological Society of Corbeil, Étampes and Hurepoix - Published by (?), 1904: "We can conclude from such an act That Donat was the nearest relative of Bégon - more probably his son-in-law, for Donat's wife bore the name of Landree (Landrade), as a sister of Charles Martel, daughter of Pepin de Héristal and another Alpaïde. "
4. ↑ The Province of Maine - By Maine Historical Archives Society, Cogner Historical Archives Society

See also [ edit | Change the code ]

Additional Bibliography [ edit | Change the code ]
Annick Miro, "Two counts in the service of Louis the Pious: Bégon (806-816) and Bérenger (816-835), semper fideles " , Le Moyen Age , t. CXX, No. 2, 2014, p. 377-417

Related articles [ edit | Change the code ]
History of Paris
House of the Girardides
County of Paris - List of Counts of Paris
County of Toulouse - List of Counts of Toulouse

3/19/2017 at 10:48 AM

https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=1722...
Alpaïs de Paris (daughter of Louis I), Abbesse de St-Pierre de Reims Also Known As: "Adelaïde", "Adelheid", "Alpaida", "Alpaïde; Alpais", "Alpheid", "Alpheidis", "Alpis", "Aupais", "Elfride", "Elpheid" Birthdate: circa 797 Birthplace: Casseneul, Lot-et-Garonne, Aquitane, France Death: Died 852 in Paris, Ille-de-France, France Place of Burial: Abbaye Saint-Pierre-les-Dames, Rheims, (Present département de la Marne), (Present Région Champagne-Ardenne), France Immediate Family: Daughter of Louis I, The Pious and Theodelinde of Sens Wife of Bégon, comte de Paris, marquis de Septimanie Mother of Landrée de Paris; Leuthard II, count of Paris; Eberhard I de Paris, comte de Logenahe; Liedrat Eulde; Countess of Fulda; Adelaide and Lisiard, Count of Fezensac « less Sister of Arnoul Half sister of Gisela of Lotharingia, Abbess of Nivelles; Emperor Lothair I; Pépin I, king of Aquitaine; Adelaide De Tours; Berta; Hildegarde d'Aquitaine, Abbesse de Saint-Jean-de-Laon; Louis II, 'The German'; Rotrude, daughter of Louis I the Pious and Ermengard; Gisela of Cysoing, daughter of Louis and Judith and Charles II "the Bald", Western Emperor « less Occupation: Abbesse de Saint Pierre le Bas, à Rheims (Abbess in Reims) Managed by: Sharon Doubell Last Updated: January 18, 2016.

THE CAPS ARE TO DISTINGUISH FROM THE TEXT
SEE ABOVE LAST LINE

3/19/2017 at 10:57 AM

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bégon_de_Paris This is not the link you posted, above Dorothy, it's the French link - which reverts to Medlands; which we have discussed above.

Justin - I agree with you. Alex, if you're happy, I'll cut it again, and also the links to the brothers - where Cawley doesn't find primary sources.

3/19/2017 at 11:22 AM

Yes Its French and I am sharing it with you

Here is the translated page to English

https://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=https:/...

3/20/2017 at 3:21 AM

Okay, the Unknown parentage then applies to the brothers, Stephanus I, Count of Paris &Leuthard I, count of Fézensac too:

Two brothers:
1. STEPHANUS [I] ([754]-[16 Aug] [815]). Stephanus I, Count of Paris The primary source which establishes that Stephanus was the son of Gerard has not yet been identified. However, he was the brother of Liuthard as shown by the charter dated 811 under which "Stephanus…comes…Amaltrudis comitissa" donated property "in pago Parisiaco in loco…Sulciacus [et]…Nocetus" to "Inchadus Parisiace urbis episcopus", subscribed by "Leutardi germanum Stephani comitis"[58].
2. LIUTHARD (-3 Jan [813] or after). "Leutardi germanum Stephani comitis" subscribed the charter dated 811 under which "Stephanus…comes…Amaltrudis comitissa" donated property to "Inchadus Parisiace urbis episcopus"[68]. Comte de Fézensac. The Vita Hludowici Imperatoris records the death of "Burgundio" [in 801] and that "comitatus eius Fedentiacus" was granted to "Liutardo"[69].
From: http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKISH%20NOBILITY.htm#_Toc169575355

I've added Curator Notes to that effect.

3/20/2017 at 4:41 AM

Sorry Sharon, meant to respond earlier but am moving house today and tomorrow.
I am easy regarding keeping the link or not, severing it would be the most defensible decision.

3/20/2017 at 7:06 AM

Done. Have a smooth move :-)

3/20/2017 at 4:36 PM

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girardides

Translated https://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=https:/...

Subject : Girardides

If you look at the link you can see the tree and just who was Gérard I of Paris children were.

https://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=https:/...

Notes and references
1. Bouillet, Dict. Hist. , Art. Paris (counts of).
2. André Dupin , Memoirs of M. Dupin , Paris, Plon, 1860, vol. 3, p. 347.
3. Quid , ed. 2003, p. 724.
4. Abbe d'Expilly , Geographical Dictionary, Historical and Political of the Gauls and of France , Desaint and Saillant, 1768, Paris, vol. 5, p. 567.
5. A , b , c and d Abbé d'Expilly, op. Cit. , P. 567.
6. ↑ Genealogy of Griffon (Grifo) on the site Medieval Lands
7. A , b , c , d , e and f FRANKS, CAROLINGIAN NOBILITY on MedLands
8. ↑ Genealogy of Gerard, Count of Vienna, on the site Medieval Lands
9. ↑ Conrad Genealogy on the Medieval Lands site
10. ↑ Genealogy of Rodolphe, Count of Sens, on the site Medieval Lands
11. Regine Le Jan , Family and power in the free world: VII-Xth century , Publications of the Sorbonne, 1995, volume 33, p. 215
12. Historians of France , vol. VIII, p. 197, 292: confirmation in this title by the king.
13. ↑ Olivier Guillot, Albert Rigaudière, Yves Sassier, Powers and institutions in medieval France , volume I: From origins to feudal times , Armand Colin, 2003, p. 170.
14. Pierre Thomas Nicolas Hurtaut , Dict. Hist. Of the city of Paris and its surroundings , Paris, vol. 2, p. 153.
15. Jean Flori , The Rise of Chivalry , Droz, 1986, p. 153
16. Pierre Thomas Nicolas Hurtaut, Dict. Hist. Of the city of Paris and its surroundings , Paris, vol. 2, p. 153.
17. André Dupin , Memoirs of M. Dupin , Paris: Plon, 1860, vol. 3, p. 347.

3/20/2017 at 4:49 PM

Dorie Toews,

Please don't use wikipedia (regardless of the language) as anything more than a primer.

Medlands is a sourced academic site (IN ENGLISH) please use it as your template when building in this region of the tree. Here is the link for Gerard:

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKISH%20NOBILITY.htm#_Toc371156044

3/21/2017 at 4:57 PM

Did you know that Wikipedia in any languages DO use http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands as many of their source files? BTW MedLands updates that site all the time. I am actually thinking of joining.

by Charles Cawley
""""The project is ongoing, and new versions of the documents are added as information comes available.
The Foundation for Medieval Genealogy is pleased to host these pages on behalf of the author, Charles Cawley. The author welcomes feedback, including corrections and contributions of new, verified data. If you find any broken links or have any other problems please report them.""""

I found a few ... Just saying ... Keep in mind I do know someone that actually works as a professional genealogist in my family and works for the historical society in the Netherlands plus can get full access to other Historical Societies all over Europe.. So do I believe MedLands is FULLY correct ? NO! It is not the ONLY place to use as "Primary Sources "

3/21/2017 at 5:01 PM

Oh and IF you bothered to look at my post above yours, it's got "Medlands" written all over it as references.

3/21/2017 at 5:13 PM

Medlands is does not have everything available on every line. That much is true.

But you have to be able to read what it has, not just cite it here and there.

If you know a primary source that's not in Medlands let's talk about it. That's what we always do.

If you don't know a another primary source there isn't much room for discussion. It doesn't do any good to cite a thousand secondary sources that cite other secondary sources that cite the same primary sources we already know about.

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