Sara Pieterse van Orcum - cheating

Started by Alex Moes on Sunday, May 7, 2017
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5/7/2017 at 3:53 PM

[[363677820350011581], how well do you remember this profile? I remember worrking on it and clearly it is one we have visited previously but details are a blur.

My eye was drawn today to the mismatch between her surname and parents surname, which usually indicates a womans name being changed by marriage which in this time period would need to rectified, but it is not her husband's name.

I don't have any recollection where "van Orcum" comes from. The CN is very clear but not detailed.

One piece of news, we previously had brth location as "possibly from Workum, Netherlands" but how that the Stadarchief paywall is gone I can actually view the scanned marriage record and see that she is definitely not from Workum. At first i couldn't make out the actual place name but her record on findagrave states Hoorn and with that knowledge it is easy enough to decipher the olde Dutchy hand writing of the marriage record.

Hoorn has a good database I will try and find her baptism which would have fathers first names at least.

5/7/2017 at 3:57 PM
5/7/2017 at 4:06 PM

So I'm going through revisions trying to figure out which merge after 2014 dragged in the "not parents" - because we gave up on them at that point. Not seeing it, did see a "from Hoorn" merge and a Cook name.

To me we should just disconnect parents and relationship lock after the children have been checked to make sure there aren't extra of them and that they are ordered chronologically.

5/7/2017 at 4:11 PM

There's a note on the Schepmoes profile

Left the Texel 7 Sept 1637, arrived New Amsterdam 28 March 1638 on the Dolphijn.

"Jan Jansen Schepmoes and family"
Register of Provincial Secretary, 12 Jan 1645


1642 Feb 16; Jan Schepmoes, Sara Pieters Van Orcum; Annetje; Maryn Adriaenszen, Lysbeth Thys

Would that suggest Van Orcum was the daughter Sara's husband? Not getting it ...

5/7/2017 at 4:13 PM

Jukka do you have a source for Sara as daughter of Pieter Casparszen Mabie, 'van Naarden' & Aechtje Jans Van Norden ?

The names aren't making Dutch or English sense ....

5/7/2017 at 5:54 PM

Too early in the morning for me :)

*1642 Feb 16; Jan Schepmoes, Sara Pieters Van Orcum; Annetje; Maryn Adriaenszen, Lysbeth Thys

Shows that at least once in her life "our" Sara was recorded with the surname "Van Orcum".

Workum, which may or may not be the Orcum in question, is about 50 miles north from Hoorn on the other side of what used to be the Zuiderzee but is now the IJsselmeer.

Naarden on the other hand is about 20 miles south of Hoorn. Hard to imagine any one using both surnames.

5/7/2017 at 6:03 PM

There is no way that Pieter Casparszen Mabie is Sara Pieterse van Orcum's father as she is 2 years older than him. But it does look like Pieter Van Naerden is a dupe.

Disconnect, disconnect, disconnect!

I don't know where Jukka got his info but it matches what FindaGrave has so possibly he was copying form there.

5/7/2017 at 7:27 PM


Calls her Cook & then

"Jan Jansen Schepmoes and Sara Pieterse Van Naerden were married on December 27, 1631 in Amsterdam, Neth."

A different Shepmoes?

5/7/2017 at 7:35 PM

looks like Wikitree & others had had the Van Narden ancestry also, but Wikitree has since updated:

The parents listed for this individual are speculative and may not be based on sound genealogical research. Sources to prove or disprove this ancestry are needed. Please contact the Profile Manager or leave information on the bulletin board. Sara has no known connection to the van Norden or Mabie families.

Which we knew in 2014 but I guess curator notes ... (sigh)

5/7/2017 at 7:38 PM

Ok Cook is anglicized " Couck

5/7/2017 at 9:33 PM

The marriage in Amsterdam is legit but she only uses "Sara Pieters" and she is “van Hoorn” meaning from Hoorn NOT her surname. I haven’t uploaded as a document but have added a hyperlink to the scanned page in her About.

5/7/2017 at 9:52 PM

Should we add "van Hoorn" as a suffix?

5/7/2017 at 10:00 PM

I wonder where they get Cook/Couck from.

5/7/2017 at 10:02 PM

Why would we add it as a suffix? It's not a title it's just a data bit on a 400 year old form, would be like adding "of NYC" to your suffix.

5/7/2017 at 10:10 PM

Which I would do as a toponym if I was subject to mixup ! It's a convention used in English & American genealogy.

5/7/2017 at 10:12 PM

Cook / Couk / Couch is the 2nd husband. I suppose could be in her AKA but why, there would never be a record of her with that name.

5/7/2017 at 10:46 PM

Allegedly she died in 1656 so well within the Dutch era and no reason to suspect she would ever have used her husband's last name.
I add these sorts of names to the AKA to increase chance of Tree Matches if someone builds their tree backwards adding her as Sara Cook simply because they don't know her last name.

5/7/2017 at 10:48 PM

I've removed "Sara Pieters Van Naerden" from her AKA but can see an argument to keep it there.

5/8/2017 at 12:38 AM

I think we should pile on the alternate names so master profiles are more easily found, and the bios read. I would put in "not van Naerden" perhaps.

5/8/2017 at 3:00 AM

Im not liking the "possible child" in her About so much anymore. Its the shepmoes in the mothers name. It shouldnt be there if that mother is this woman

5/8/2017 at 3:06 AM

Also who is the witness? Anna Schepmoes.
Sara's daughter Annetje would only be 16 in 1658 legally old enough to marry but doesnt make sense to have an unmarried 16 year old gurl as godmother of her own sister

5/8/2017 at 2:42 PM

Could there be Shepmoes daughters of William Jansz Schepmoes

5/8/2017 at 5:40 PM

There may be but he doesn't use the Schepmoes name so we would be looking for Willem Jansz (the proverbial John Smith), I have no idea if he emigrated or was it just the theoretical daughter(s) that emigrated?

There is another candidate but i have no idea if there is any supporting evidence beyond web trees. Based on goodness knows what proofJan Jans Schepmoes has a mother .... oooh no i just realised that Jan's mother (what ever her name actually was) cannot have been in NYC in the 1650s because he is described as an "orphan" in his marriage record. Strictly speaking i just think that means his parents were dead and so could not give parental permission for the marriage but either way definitely not hanging about witnessing baptisms in 1658.

5/8/2017 at 6:04 PM

So I would leave it unless / until we find out more about William Hons

5/8/2017 at 6:11 PM

Ok found out more about Wlliam Hondt :)


Also, recall from Lorine's message that 800 guilders had been set
apart from the estate of Jan Janszen Schepmoes for his children
and that the house on Pearl St. had been mortgaged to do this.

Now looking at Vol 2, p. 398-99 of the NY Hist. Soc. Abstracts of
Wills we see (after applying corrections from vol 16):

"In the name of God, Amen, June 17, 1688: I William Cooke (or Kooke)
of New York. I appoint for my sole and universall heir, my son
Thomas Kook, procreated by my wife Sara Kook, deceased. 'Signed and
sealed at the house of Dirck Janse Woertman within the jurisdiction
of Brookland, in Kings County.'"
Witnesses, Dirck Janse Woertman, Jan Vandewater.

"Inventory of the estate of William Kooke. Taken December 30, 1689.
Houses in Pearl street, according to the Grond Brief. (List small,
no value given.) [Note. -- The house of William Kooke was on the
south side of Peral street, west of Whitehall.]

"In the name of God, Amen. Be it known unto every one whom it doth
concern, that I, Thomas Kooke, of the city of New York, considering
my present sickness. My dear wife, Harmettie Kooke, is to remain in
full possission of all my estate without any contradiction from
any body. If she remarries she shall give on-half to my children
procreated by her, namely William, Dirck, and Sara Kooke.
Dated September 20, 1689. Witnesses Adolph Pieterse, Jacob van
Gezell, and William Bogardus. Proved January 7, 1689/0.

1691 May 2 "Whereas Thomas Kook...has died intestate, Letters of
Administration are granted to his wife Harmsie"
by "Henry Slaughter, Esq., Captain-General and Governor"
(Didn't he know the will had been proved, or has he
invalidated it?)

1691 May 16 Leisler is hanged

It looks to me as if Thomas and Harmsie may have wanted it all for her.
It is insteresting how this personal drama plays out against the
larger events of Leisler's rebellion and downfall.

I hope the Schepmoes kids got their 800 guilders.

5/8/2017 at 6:25 PM

Whole family is here

x. THOMAS2 COOKE, b. Abt. April 1658, Baptized New Amsterdam Dutch Reformed Church, NY, 14 April 1658; d. Bef. February 07, 1689/90, New York City, New York; m. HARAMITA WOERTMAN,
September 26, 1680, New Amserdam Dutch Reformed Church, New York.


Baptism records for 1658, 14 Apr; father-Willem Hondt, mother-Sara Thomas Schepmoes; child-Thomas; sponsers-Jacob Hay, Hendrick Tamboer, Anna Schepmoes.


Marriage Notes for SARA PIETERS and WILLEM KOECK:
7 Oct. 1656, William Couck, Van Scharetz-Stryt in Engelt en Sara Pieters, Wede Van Jan Janszen Schepmoes.“1656. Oct. 24. Sara Pietersz, widow of Jan Jansz Schepmoes, who died in January of this year at New Amsterdam. She is about to marry Willem
Koeck. Pieter Corn. Van Veen and Isack Greveraat, guardians of her children, named Willem, Anna. Abram, Aeltie, Jaepie, Dirck, Orseltie and Sara Jansz Schepmoes. She sets apart for those children 800 Carolus guilders, 100 guilders for each. Mortgages house and lot at New Amsterdam, South of Fort Amsterdam, in the Parel Straat, occupied by Jacob Strycker. [The above had been translated into English for Dirck Schepmoes on May 7, 1705, by A.G.T.]” (HSYB 1900:161).

5/8/2017 at 6:48 PM

So updated as follows.

- marriage date = death date. She was living, presumably in Brooklyn, in 1672, and deceased in 1680
- she "was" known as Kooke :)

Did you want to add her son Thomas of the wife wanting to cheat his siblings of their 800 guilders?

5/8/2017 at 6:56 PM

Page 20 has the family in "précis" form. Also she was called Sara Thomas in a record (why)

5/8/2017 at 7:06 PM

Found him Thomas Kooke

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