Isabel de France - Wrong Mother of Sancha and Elvira.

Note: after further research I have found No records pointing Isabel de France as being the mother of Sancha De Castilla.

I have also updated the overview section with more information about Isabel de France.

Can someone please transfer these children over to Alfonzo VI and Zaida (Isabel) de Sevilla

transfer children to this Profile please:

Dª. Zaida Isabel, reina de León

https://www.smokykin.com/tng/familygroup.php?familyID=F9533&tre...

Also, someone has added bio info to this Isabel of France's profile (b. 1080), daughter of Philip I, for Queen Consort Isabella (b. 1292), daughter of Philip IV (known as the "She-Wolf").

Perhaps someone would like to delete it?

Anwar, the wives of Alfonso VI are very obscure. There is a great deal of controversy. The line you are advocating is just wishful thinking.

not really look at all the references .

I just reviewed and skimmed a whole book on the matter.

please see my newest source I just attached. It discusses the Elizabeth, Isabel, Zaida confusion and leans towards Zaida as the mother.

At minimum please make Zaida the mother of Sancha and Elvira like before.

I find no reference to Isabel De France?

Anwar, you need to delve deeper I think. Zaida had only one proven child, a son Sancho who died young. There is another wife Isabel who might be Zaida or might be Isabel of France. Expert opinion has been split for more than a generation. It was that Isabel who was the mother of Sancha and Elvira.

All of this is discussed in the text of the profiles unless someone has vandalized them.

I changed Isabel's profile so it does seem to positively assert she was Isabel of France.

That's perhaps the most honest treatment of the sources we can achieve. "Leans toward" does NOT meet the genealogical standard for evidence.

but , why did you change the children's paths?

before you had it to where either Zaida or Isabela de France may have been the mother of these children now it points only to Isabela?

I Have researched this. I know the confusion so please keep things listed in a neutral way. I feel things were changed in a biased way. I am pushing for Zaida As the mother because I found WAY more evidence of this to be so. Even finding this in French records.

Even if the confusion exists can you provide Facts or Evidence other than Wikipedia?

My cousin, things are pointing to Zaida De Sevilla.

Why do you resist this?

Read my last source post please:

Zadia = Isabela = Elizabeth

Her tombstone, erected long after her death, says, "Aqui descansa la reina Isabel, mujer del rey Alfonso, hija de Aben-Abeth, rey de Sevilla; que antes se llamaba Zayda," which translates as "here lies Queen Elizabeth, wife of King Alfonso, daughter of Aben-abeth, king of Seville; previously called Zaïda."

We had fixed it several years ago but were not able then to lock relationships. Somewhere along the line someone changed it. This is not a new change. It is fixing it back to the way it was, which follows the actual evidence.

You might be aware that for cultural reasons many modern people want very much to have a descent from Zaida. Properly mishandled (yes, you are reading that correctly) her line can be made to lead back to Mohammad (PBUH). So, there is a great deal of self-delusion about this.

It appears the source citations have been removed from the profiles at some point. We can work on re-creating them for you, but really it should be easy enough to find on your own.

For example,
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/1998-12/...

nltaylor.net/pdfs/a_SanchaNotes.pdf

BTW, you appear to have been editing these profiles to remove information. I caution you against continuing that practice. I have restored the information you removed from Isabel.
.

I only added info, any information that was removed was false or wrongly sourced.

It is fixing it back to the way it was, which follows the actual evidence.

WHERE'S the evidence?

I am passionate about this because I have genealogy connecting my tree to this point and I have autosomal tests that show I have Moroccan and Spanish Andalusian DNA.

in other-words, My Tree and DNA match ideas I have listed.

I have already contacted a Iberian Historian on the matter.

Tomorrow I will contact Burke's Peerage on the matter, Because Queen Elizabeth is also a descendant of Zaida De Sevilla. So the records there have some validity.

are you kidding me Bro!

You are quoting a ROOTS Web discussion as evidence?

I quoted French history sites,
Spanish and Iberian history pages, listed group sheets in English and in French.

And you quote a roots web discussion.

give me a break.

Let another CURATOR step in ! How about a Spanish one, because honestly cousin your not neutral in curating.

Once you believe a certain way you are a closed book.

I just gave you two links that should give you a simple entry into the evidence. And, come to that, I've just looked at the Wikipedia article, which is very nicely sourced.

You are misunderstanding the nature of DNA testing if you believe that your "Moroccan and Spanish Andalusian DNA" proves you are a descendant of Zaida. DNA doesn't work that way. It means you have "Moroccan and Spanish Andalusian DNA" not that you have specific ancestors within that population.

Are you aware that no one believed Zaida was anyone's ancestor until after World War II? Whatever evidence there might have been was expunged from the records during the Inquisition and limpieza. What you are advocating is a post-World War II theory that has been discredited.

And, just to be clear -- the information you removed was not false or wrongly sourced. It is sufficient cause to suspend you for vandalism, but I am willing to believe it was simply a mistake on your part. Insisting that it was not a mistake is, however, cause for concern.

A Rootsweb discussion by two very well-qualified genealogists who are drawing on material from authorities like Salazar y Acha, Martínez Díez, and others.

Brother you are assuming again,

Quote:
You are misunderstanding the nature of DNA testing if you believe that your "Moroccan and Spanish Andalusian DNA" proves you are a descendant of Zaida. DNA doesn't work that way. It means you have "Moroccan and Spanish Andalusian DNA" not that you have specific ancestors within that population.

I never said my DNA proves I am related to Zaida, but, my DNA shows I have a connection to this era. I have a detailed Genealogy tree taking me back to this era and DNA can be used as a tool to support ideas.

Please do not try and make me appear ignorant to what I am saying. Remember I did genetic testing for over 10 years with 7 different companies, my friend.

My DNA only strengthens Ideas, I am not using it as hard evidence as you try and make me appear to be doing.

look ,as discussion is still a discussion, we need facts, I am open to finding out either way. Posting a discussion is not evidence, just like Wikipedia should not be used as evidence.

The bottom line: is I am still open to finding out; you, on the other hand, are displaying you are a closed book to facts I present.

This is "NOT" the first time you have done this to me Justin.

Your knowledge doesn't always Trump mine. I am sorry you approach things this way.

I am done discussing with you and would appreciate a neutral Curator, once again.

You are biased and you changed a assumed path to Zaida de Sevilla's children once I mentioned a path problem to Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon him) which I have provided assumed connection to.

As I mentioned I already contacted a Iberian Historian, I will contact Burke's Peerage today.

Because if Zaida stands as a path to Queen Victoria , the path I'm sure has been investigated by professionals.

Sarcastically speaking: Thanks again for the conflict of option and help.

I will keep you updated with responses from the pros.

Dr. Anwar Ibrahim

quote: Wikipedia article, which is very nicely sourced.

Really, follow those sources brother. Some don't exists , I tried!

Do not trust Wiki as evidence unless you follow the sources yourself!

I even posted evidence and deleted it because when I followed the sources it was invalid.

Anwar, you are welcome to identify any other curator and ask for an independent evaluation of the evidence.

The core issue here is that you need evidence from primary sources. You are not providing that.

o.k. cousin. I am done debating with you. Just try and stay open.

I know there is a push by some Europeans that do not want to except that they may be related to Prophet Muhammad PBUH so they make Isabel to look French to cover this path.

I will keep researching and stay open to the idea being right or wrong.

I will keep the discussion updated with new findings.

Anwar, I did a paper on Zaida in grad school for my History of Medieval Spain class so I'm familiar with the primary and secondary sources on this subject. I can tell you that there are several reasonable interpretations of the evidence, so I don't fault anyone for having an opinion. But the evidence will not support a definitive answer.

Zaida and Isabel being the same person is just a theory. People can conjecture and write books all they want, but until we have actual evidence, meaning a primary source, we can't make that assumption. Better to err on the side of caution on Geni than risk obscuring actual established bloodlines.

I personally believe there is enough supporting evidence for zaida to be Isabel.
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The Name Zaida is actually a clue in itself.

In Islamic culture and tradition anyone whom is a descendant to the prophet Muhammad is given a title of either Sayyid or Sharif.

Those whom descend from Husayn are given the Title Sharif, Girls given the title Sharifa, while those that are from the line of Hasan are given the title Sayyid.

*Girls given the name Sayyida.

Through the years in Muslim culture people strictly preserve there connection to Prophet Muhammad in this manner.

DNA companies like FTDNA have already worked at confirming these lines with success.

Of course, there are some lines out there that may be fabricated, yet, many of these lines from the tradition above kept these lines preserved by these titles.

So the fact that her name was ZAIDA = SAYYIDA for a girl descendant of prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is a big sign she was a descendant of Prophet Muhammad and possibly, or more likely, in my opinion a daughter of one of the Andalusian Kings with path to Muhammad (PBUH).

Matching the theory of being daughter of Abu al-Qasim Muhammad ibn Abbad.

But, there is even more tho the idea.

You must understand Zaida gave King Alfonzo his first male son and next to the throne which was a big deal.

She was taken captive and first made a concubine, Concubines do not become Queens, unless, that is, you are already ROYAL!

So the next step to the equation, for their Son Sancho to be respected as next to the throne would be that he must come from a royal motherly line, as well.

So in order for all this to occur and his son gain Reign and rule, Zaida de Seville had to convert to Christianity.

At this point she regained her royal right as
Queen to the throne and was given a Christian name for the masses to except her as a christian queen since Zaida means Sayyida or descendant of Muhammad (PBUH) which wouldn't go very well in the christian public. Remember Muslims and Jews were burned at the stake, or forced to eat pork if not a convert.

So all this makes a big amount of since. If you understand these things.
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RECAP:
Sancho is Zaida son. He would not receive ruling reign if his mother was just a concubine.

Zaida had to become queen for this to happen.

I am sure of this.

The rest of King Alfonzo's children were daughters which really placed emphasis on Sancho becoming next in line.

In history we can see this was what next happened. Although, Sancho's ruling territory was small.

We have proof Sancho was Child of Zaida.

Zaida had to be queen for Sancho to Reign.

Thanks for listening, Anwar

So much uncertainty here.

1. It's not clear whether Zaida was a name or a title. One early source says she adopted the name Maria when she was baptized. Another that her name was Isabel.

2. It's not clear whether Zaida (Ceyda) is really a feminine form of Sayyid (majority opinion), or whether the name means "increase".

3. In this period Sayyid had come to mean simply "lord". It's cognate with the famous El Cid. And since the male form was already being used as a given name in her time it's not clear whether Zaida's name might also be just a given name.

4. Even if her name implies she was a descendant of Mohammad (PBUH), there is still the problem that the descent might be forged. There was already a dispute between Sunni and Shia Muslims whether Zaida's supposed ancestor Ruqayyah was Mohammad's daughter or his step-daughter. So, her name or title in this case would be a political statement not evidence of her actual descent.

5. Sancho is Alfonso's son almost certainly by Zaida. There is some doubt but you won't find much argument about it. Alfonso faced a succession crisis and made his only son Sancho his heir even though Sancho was illegitimate. It's reasonable to suppose Alfonso would have married Sancho's mother if he was unmarried himself but it's not a necessary part of the story.

Good points

I still feel confident about Zaida meaning Sayyida because It matches if she is indeed the daughter of ,"Abu al Qasim Mutamid."

* His lineage tree follows to the path descending from Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)

*His lineage supporting the idea why he would name his daughter Sayyida Spanish Zaida,, or even if just a title, explains why she would be assigned it.

If true also supports the idea of why she would then need a Christianize name as Queen.

Again, from the supporting evidence I have doubts,"name means "increase". in this case.

Zaida (aka Isabella) – daughter of
Al-Mu’tamid ibn Abbad, King of Seville – son of
Abbad II al-Mu’tadid, King of Seville – son of
Abu al-Qasim Muhammad ibn Abbad, King of Seville – son of
Ismail ibn Qarais – son of
Qarais ibn Abbad – son of
Abbad ibn Amr – son of
Amr ibn Aslan – son of
Aslan ibn Amr – son of
Amr ibn Itlaf – son of
Itlaf ibn Na’im – son of
Na’im II al-Lakhmi – son of
Na’im al-Lakhmi – son of
Zahra bint Husayn – daughter of
Husayn ibn Hasan – son of
Hasan ibn Ali

Mother=> FATIMAH Bint MUHAMMAD -

Daughter of; AHMAD , ABD- ALLAH, RASOOLULLAH, PROPHET MUHAMMAD (PBUH)